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Elgato
Citizen
Username: Elgato
Post Number: 44
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 9:02 pm: | 
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Sure weeding's a pain...just mow them regularly and no one will notice, as long as it's short and green. I heard somewhere that lots of salt poured into the middle of the dandelion will kill it. I am going to try that this year. Mulch helps too but I'm worried they treat that with chemicals also - does anyone know? |
meluga
Citizen
Username: Meluga
Post Number: 84
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 7:32 am: |
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When I was working in peds oncology several parents mentioned how they loved to ride their bikes behind the trucks spraying insecticides during the summer. They wondered whether or not there was a correlation between these rides and their children being treated for various pediatric cancers 20-30 years later. 10 years ago the scientific data was inconclusive. Common sense has led me to pull out dandelions , not use pesticides on the lawn and hope for the best. |
CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2236
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 8:08 am: |
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I have a thread in the Food section about eating dandelion greens. Next time I'm out there digging, I'm going to save the greens and give 'em a try.
I got dandelion greens in a recent vegetable co-op order and they were very tasty. These ones were cultivated for eating I think, and probably under ideal circumstances. But I'm going to see how my yard dandelions compare. I've read that the flowers & roots are also edible but I'm not sure I'm quite ready for that yet.
Then I'll be able to better justify the amount of time I spend digging them up. I spent a couple of hours digging dandelions yesterday and my back & hands are paying the price today ... but heck it's exercise that doesn't require a gym membership, right? and it's out in the fresh air ... |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13961
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 8:27 am: |
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Also, that onion grass that is growing prolificly right now is very good. Tastes like scallions.
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CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2238
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 8:33 am: |
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You've eaten the onion grass? I asked about that on the other thread too!
My mom (or somebody) told me that it gives bad indigestion.
Maybe I'll try a nice dandelion & onion grass omelet next weekend ... |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13968
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:06 am: |
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Raw onions give me a stomach ache if I eat too much. Onion grass is a little milder. It will be fine if you cook it. It really is yummy, and it sure is plentiful, too.
We used to live near Johnson Park in Piscataway. We would pick the onion grass and feed it to the goats. It was their absolute favorite food. The goats would run away from other people feeding them and run to us for the onion grass.
Let us know how the omelette turns out. Sounds excellent.
Hmm, I could make one myself, from my own lawn!
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CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2239
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:12 am: |
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Free food!!! What could be better??
Depending on the results of this experiment, this is another good reason NOT to use chemicals on your lawn. ;-) |
Elgato
Citizen
Username: Elgato
Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:35 am: |
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Dandelions are classified as herbs and full of vitamins. More info.:
http://www.ajc.com/health/altmed/shared/health/alt_medicine/ConsHerbs/Dandelionc h.html
Plantain also:
An infusion of the seeds has been used for all respiratory troubles including coughs, hoarseness, and mucus congestion, and for its appetite-suppressing properties. The infusion is also a treatment for gastroenteritis, worms, and general feebleness. Externally, the juice of the fresh leaves, or plantain salve, has been used for poisonous snake and insect bites. But just to make sure, Native Americans often carried a small bag filled with the powdered root as a charm against snakebite. A fresh leaf poultice is used for abrasions, wounds, insect stings, blisters, swellings and inflammations, sores and ulcers, burns rheumatism, and sore, tired feet.
This is from: http://www.empirenet.com/alistar/Plantain.htm
Anyone know of any other valuable 'weeds' lurking in our backyards? |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 577
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:49 am: |
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Elgato has basically made my point....Salt is absolutely a chemical, and happens to be the main chemical in most solutions used for killing weeds/grass. We sprinkle salt on most of our food without question (unless you have high blood pressure)....yet do to the massive misinformation campaign by various groups/organizations, we don't give it a second thought.
I'm willing to bet the typical consumer of "Organic" fertilizers has no clue what chemicals are in their fertilizer, and how it compares to a conventional fertilizer.
But it probably feels really good (and makes you think your doing your part to stop global warming) to pay a 30% premium for Organic Salt. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4280
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:58 am: |
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"Salt is absolutely a chemical, and happens to be the main chemical in most solutions used for killing weeds/grass"
By salt, do you mean sodium chloride or are you applying the definition of salt used by inorganic chemists. If you mean the rigorous chemists definition of a salt, you would be correct. If you mean to suggest that sodium chloride is the active ingredient in products such as Roundup and Weed-b-Gon, then you are wrong. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 578
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:14 am: |
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Tjohn, you are absolutely right....there's the Chemical version of NaCl, which I put on my Medium Rare Steak....and there's the "Organic" version of NaCl, which you paid twice as much for, to put on your Organically Raised Cow-Steak, that you paid 30% per pound more for.
They are sooooooooooo different....You are saving your body, your soul and the world. I, on the other hand, am destroying it. |
CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2240
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
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To me it's less about being "organic" (though I do care about pesticide run-off in our drinking water). It's more about time. I don't put ANYTHING on my yard, including so-called organic fertilizers etc. And as I said before, I just don't "get" the desire to have the lawn looking like a putting green. To me, yards like this look fake and sterile.
In my flower beds, I do put cedar chips around my hostas to control slugs, and I also sometimes use mulch created from falling magnolia petals. Other than that, I don't put anything out. Two reasons for this are: 1) time and 2) money. I don't water either, unless I have new plantings - and then only until I'm sure they're going to do OK. I haven't put in major amounts of plantings for a few years and I honestly couldn't tell you where my sprinkler is at this point in time.
And my yard looks fine. I'm not going to post my address, but I will say that a neighbor stopped by yesterday and was telling me how envious she was of my lovely yard and how she hopes to get hers in equally-nice shape too. I was delighted by this as I never really thought my yard was compliment-worthy - I'm only aiming for "not too bad" or "avoid having the neighbors to sign a petition asking me to do something about that disgracefull mess."
The time spent pulling weeds is actually pretty enjoyable - like Jersey Boy, I kind of enjoy weeding. I'm outside, nobody is bothering me, and I get to see the neighbors. People slow down to watch me trim the edges of my lawn with a pair of scissors, so I guess I'm getting the reputation of being a bit eccentric, but this does not bother me in the slightest. (and when I post my dandelion & onion grass omelet recipe, that reputation will certainly solidify ... ) |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4281
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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I don't understand the connection between table salt and the use of optional pesticides on lawns where the long-term effects of said pesticides are not fully understood.
I am not obsessed with organic foods, but I do try to avoid an excessive dependence on optional chemicals. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13978
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:23 am: |
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Perhaps organic additives are no better than regular ones, but using no additives seems sure to be more benign than using either type.
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Elgato
Citizen
Username: Elgato
Post Number: 46
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:56 pm: |
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This thread's turned into Chinese Whispers...I didn't say say anything about using organic salt. I said I use an organic product on my lawn (I think the main ingredient is cornmeal) which does not kill the weeds, it stops them germinating in early spring. It is perfectly harmless to humans/animals.
On a separate note I said that I have heard that putting salt (any old kind) directly onto individual dandelions can kill them. It may be a chemical but it's doubtful whether it will give my family or passing dogs cancer. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 791
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 3:01 pm: |
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kriss
Citizen
Username: Kriss
Post Number: 299
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 5:36 pm: |
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http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2006/04/29/1556379-sun.html
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Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 580
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 8:25 am: |
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What is a Chinese Whisper?
I used the salt example because the word "Chemical" has become demonized, and nobody actually knows why, but assume the use of Chemicals is bad for you. The fact that weed and grass killer (whose lethal chemical typically includes Salt) was used as an example, led me to use Salt as an example of a chemical that we put on our dining table, illustrating a point that the word Chemical is misrepresented.
Many organic fertilizers can cause similar effects that non-organic fertilizers have. Nobody seems to care about that.
Are you really concerned about our drinking water? Have you not seen NJ Water's last report on water quality? It's impeccable.
The Organic Label is a genius Marketing ploy that enables business to charge rich people MORE for LESSER quality goods, that have previously been considered commodity items. It's brilliant, and every day I see the organic label slapped on new items, I shake my head that my next door neighbor is going to rush out and buy it (and than complain that their Gasoline is 30% higher, in spite of paying 30% more their Milk voluntarily). Anyone who has TRULY DONE their research on this topic will arrive at similar conclusions that I have, and this applies to Organic Fertilizers equally.
I can't WAIT until Exxon unveils their Organic Gas product. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4291
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 9:29 am: |
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Smarty,
The active ingredient in Roundup is a salt, I suppose, but it is most certainly not table salt. The active ingredient is glyphosphate of the class of organophosphates. Organophosphate compounds range from some that are medically useful to some of the deadliest poisons ever invented (e.g. Sarin).
Again, this thread is about the heavy use of optional lawn chemicals where the long-term effects are not fully known. This thread is not about table salt. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 583
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 9:58 am: |
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tjohn, the long term effects aren't known for most of what we do, and I question those who fear unknown longterm effects, while ignoring known short-term realities.
What should I be afraid of when properly using Scott's products on my yard, as per their instructions (and their warnings about ingestion)?
Am I polluting the M/SO water supply? My water reading doesn't seem to suggest that.
Will my children be hospital bound with unexplainable chemical burns on their feet and palms for months?
Am I killing my neighbors dogs (Hopefully :-)) ?
Or will I die of a cancer 40 years from now, and think back remorsefully about the liklihood that it was my Scott's Weed-n-Feed that I applied to my yard each spring when I was a Young Invincible man, full of life?
Please tell me what I'm supposed to be afraid of. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4292
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 10:12 am: |
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Your logic is certainly flawed. You seem to be saying that because we don't know the long-term effects of everything, then we shouldn't worry about it when applying optional pesticides and herbicides to our lawns.
You further talk about unknown long-term effects versus known short-term realities. That's a bit bizarre considering that in the case of optional lawn chemicals, the short-term risk is a lawn with weeds and grubs. It isn't like the tradeoff between not using asbestos on ships in WW II (more dead sailors in the short-term) and the long-term known health risks of asbestos.
Anyway, thousands of brave Americans died for our freedom. You have the freedom to put optional poisons on your lawn in full knowledge that there is small risk of long-term health problems. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14029
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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I had to look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers
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Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 585
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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tjohn, you accuse me of thread drift on NaCl, but then launch into a segment on WWII battleships?
Everything is optional...you happen to have a personal issue with the option of using Lawn products....which is fine. You have yet to demonstrate why this should be a valid concern of mine, a regular user of lawn products. You opted not to answer any of my questions. I have another.
Can you describe this Small Risk of Long-Term health problems? How small? What health problems? Anything documented, or is it fear of the unknown that is driving your decision to opt out?
There's a very large risk that you will die in your vehicle this week, yet you probably opt to get in your car multiple times. Why is that fear (real, true, immediate) not as important to you as the one you brought up in this thread?
What exactly is it about lawn care products that is bothering you so much? I'm an open minded guy, always eager to learn....educate me. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 586
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 11:28 am: |
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Tom, I just read your link...I think it may have been misusued earlier, as it doesn't seem applicable. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4293
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 11:32 am: |
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Smarty,
No, you raised the issue of long-term versus short-term tradeoffs in the context of using optional poisons on your lawn. This struck be as being a bit bizarre since the known short-term risk of neglecting your lawn is weeds and bare patches versus the not fully understood long-term risk of using poisons. I introduced the decision to use asbestos during WW II ship construction as an illustration of a serious consideration of the tradeoff between serious short-term risks and serious long-term risks in the use of a particular material. Maybe the decision to use malathion with known risks to kill West Nile carrying mosquitoes (another known risk) would be a better example.
I am not losing sleep over your use or my neighbors use of lawn care poisons. I do tell my children to stay off of freshly poisoned lawns.
I just find it a bit bizarre when somebody has their yard poisoned for purely aesthetic reasons and then asks when it is safe for their children and pets to go back to playing on their lawn.
It's a matter of preference. Some people like biologically dull or dead patches of perfect green grass. I like a lawn where children and dogs play and birds forage for food because I have NOT poisoned every last grub.
I am stating the fact that the long-term risks of lawn chemicals is not fully understood. So, there is the chance that these optional chemicals will cause some person to develop cancer some time in the future.
Poison your lawn. Take the risk. Knock yourself out. But don't compare the optional use of poisons to situations where there are real consequences to not using a risky substance (e.g. malathion versus West Nile or asbestos on WW II ships (short-term death by burning versus long-term death by asbestosis). |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 588
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
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tjohn, the long term risks of my lawn care products are no more understood than the long term risks of Nutrisweet, yet I (and possibly you) drink plenty of diet soda....you wash your car for Aesthetic reasons (unless you avoid that too) yet the soaps used are far more hazardous than lawn care products....how about the paint on your house? Again, aesthetics, particularly since most maplewood houses are Cedar siding which never needed paint to begin with, yet I bet you repaint when it starts to peel.....
Why have you honed in specifically of the aesthetics of the yard? Is there something specific about nice yards that urk you? You don't seem to even know if there ARE long term risks associated with these products (and if you are aware of some new facts, you certainly aren't sharing it today).
In my situation, i work to keep my yard nice so that my family can USE it, as opposed to my neighbors neglected yard, which becomes a mud-pit by mid summer becuase the grass all dies. Oddly enough, their kids and pets all use MY yard by mid summer, and I'm happy to let them use it. What is wrong with that? I don't find that frivolous or useless at all, and we spend quite a bit of time enjoying our back yard.
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4294
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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Smarty,
I would be stricken with guilt at the possibility that I was poisoning my neighbor's children and pets if I used lawn chemicals. You obviously aren't. I say happy poisoning. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 591
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 1:39 pm: |
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Is there a reason you've avoided having a reasonable conversation based on facts, and making any effort whatsoever to change my mind? I've given you an open window to change my opinion (rare as that opportunity is on MOL), yet you've not even tried?
Perhaps you have no facts/data to support your fear, and should chalk it up to unfounded, uninformed superstition.
PS. The neighbors know exactly what I do to my lawn because I borrow their Fertilizer equipment whenever I need to lay down product.
(Your West Nile example was funny! The highly caustic chemical used to treat mosquitos has been shown to be far more damaging to health than the West Nile Virus. Yet uninformed hysteria, and political boobness had all of Manhattan sprayed with this stuff. Funny you should have chosen this as SUPPORT of your position, as its a great example of behavior driven by fear not facts) I guess you simply don't educate yourself on your own views, for fear you may have to change them. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4295
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 2:00 pm: |
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What's the reasonable conversation. Many a person finds the American lawn OCD to be most fascinating. It just struck me as humorous in a way that somebody would commission the optional poisoning of their lawn and then worry about when it was safe to play on it. There was never much more to this thread for me than that. |
Elgato
Citizen
Username: Elgato
Post Number: 51
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 6:50 pm: |
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Sorry that you had to look it up Tom. I would have explained but I thought this thread had ended and wasn't checking it.
Smarty, the link was appropriate and I mentioned Chinese Whispers because you hadn't read/understood my other comments and taken the salt out of context. By the way, there are lots of cancer warnings about nutrisweet and aspartame in diet sodas. You could research aspartame and start a thread on it..! |
Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1805
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 7:47 pm: |
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I know TJohn, and his lawn is one of the most welcoming, friendliest lawns in Maplewood.
TJohn has Milkweed, Monarch butterflies, finches, veggies thriving, and happy kids peddling around in front and back while TJohn mows with his reel-mower.
TJohn has a joyful yard and I love peeking in to see what's new.
A perfect yard is like a sofa covered with plastic - ick. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14042
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 9:24 pm: |
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Don't apologize for making me look it up. Occasions to look things up are exciting opportunities!
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