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SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1746
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 9:12 pm: | 
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Thanks, Grasshopper. |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 183
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 9:16 pm: |
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Which movement? The movement for immigration "reform" or the reaction to it? |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1486
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 10:46 pm: |
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Mr. Big Poppa- I paint my own house- if your argument about immigration is based on who you pay and what you pay for services, you are the problem. Help yourself, and maybe others will do likewise. What you save on landscaping will cost you elsewhere, like overburdened school systems and socially-funded healthcare.
MichaelM- My family came from Ireland also. And they weren't holier than anyone- they were just determined and self-reliant. Some came during the Famine, some in the early 20th century. They were detested, discriminated against and relegated to every unwanted job they could wrestle away from someone else. What they handed down to us was this: whatever they endured here was still far better than what they left behind. And that's what is missing in the nouveau immigrant; too many arrive at this table with nothing but an appetite, and then curse this land for what it isn't. Not all, but far too many.
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Mr. Big Poppa
Citizen
Username: Big_poppa
Post Number: 604
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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Brett,
I'm not talking about the obvious work the illegals immigrants do, I was referring to what you don't see, hence my use of the word "invisible". There is a great deal of their work involved with securing you the food, products and services you consume.
Do you grow and pick your own veggies and fruit? Do you keep your own livestock, feed and slaughter them?
Painting your house and doing your lawn? You're such a survivalist!  Give me a break! |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4835
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:11 pm: |
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Another B.S. issue to distract people from the real crimes being committed. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 2067
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:51 pm: |
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"Nuestro Himno" is this year's gay marriage. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1943
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 7:30 am: |
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If you are working in America, pay your taxes and don't harm other people, what's the problem?
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4838
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 7:59 am: |
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how about we go after people who fly the confederate flag instead? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13966
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 8:55 am: |
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Great question, tom. If someone can't answer that question, the discussion is over.
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Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1469
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:19 am: |
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The confederate flag is a part of our nation's history. Yes, I know, terrible past many mistakes how horrible how sad blah blah blah blah. Like it or not, the Confederate flag is a part of America. As American citizens (whether native or naturalized) we have the right to express our opinions by flying those flags.
No, I don't have one. Thanks for asking.
Anyway - it's a real shame that English was never codified as the language of the USA... I guess it's too late now.
And I'm fine with this thread ending - what the hell, maybe I should start learning Spanish so I can continue to interact with my government (note the dates, this is nothing recent):
http://www.englishfirst.org/elcenezo/elcenezoreuters81699.htm
This is a little over-the-top, but interesting nonetheless:
http://www.vdare.com/awall/conquistadors.htm
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1487
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:19 am: |
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Right, Poppa. Just stop playing the concerned activist when it's really about inexpensive lawn care and keeping your Big Mac under $2.00. The depth of your humanity is frightening.
Funny, we used to have a visible workforce who tended to all of those "menial" jobs. They were called "teenagers". |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4840
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:35 am: |
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Quote:The confederate flag is a part of our nation's history.
So are millions of slaughtered buffalo, but I wouldn't want my neighbor to put one on her lawn. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6120
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:52 am: |
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"I don't see nearly enough of that devotion among today's emigres (edited to add - replace emigres with Americans). Too many want something for nothing, use and abuse the system and don't consider themselves American in the least. My heart does not go out to them and their struggles pale when compared to those who came in decades past."
You can say this about many American citizens as well.
 |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 783
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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Yeah so? We're citizens...we have a right to be lazy. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1489
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:21 am: |
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Mem- I agree completely. |
Wendyn
Supporter
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 3046
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:29 am: |
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What I want to know is who the hell wrote the "ABC" song lyrics to the tune of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". What an abomination. Now I never know what I am supposed to sing...a lovely lyric praising a beautiful star, or a stupid listing of letters and a demand that you "sing with me" next time and join the cult. And don't get me started on "Baa Baa Black Sheep". Trying to turn our children into racists. I mean, "Yes sir, yes sir"? Terrible.
This morning I caught my kid singing "brush your teeth" to the same tune and I had to set her straight. One tune, one lyric. Anything else is unacceptable. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 784
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
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Wendyn it goes beyond that. These idiots want to be in the country so badly, yet they shun everything about it they can find. Now they have their mits on our national anthem and they've screwed that up too. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13983
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:43 am: |
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Wendyn, that means the alphabet song needs a new melody. 
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Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1471
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:58 am: |
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Well Tom... in the event that someone puts a buffalo carcass on his lawn, you should probably complain to the township. (As ludicrous a possibility as this is, of course!) However, if your neighbor puts up Custer's flag (in memory of the US Cavalry troops that helped... umm... pacify... the West, then that's well within his rights - even if you don't like it.
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Mr. Big Poppa
Citizen
Username: Big_poppa
Post Number: 605
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:24 pm: |
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Brett, I'm not playing the concerned activist. I just think when people get caught up in their nationalist fervor, they lose their sense of logic.
"Send 'em back home!!!" Sure, that's an easy solution, but have we really thought what that would mean for our economy and us specifically? Of course, I care about how that would effect me in my pocket. But, I also respect the work that the illegal immigrants perform. I see them as a vital piece of our workforce.
Let's be honest, the work ethic of teenagers today are not what it was 20+ years. My parents live in Boca Raton. Around 1990, a McDonalds opened up in one of the strip malls. Fast food restaurants were very uncommon in Boca at that time, so this was a big deal. Can you believe that they couldn't get enough people to work there? They had to hire people from Miami (about 50 mins away) and put them on a bus to fill the spots!!
In my previous job, I had to visit a few slaughterhouses in the US. Not to gross anyone out, but it is a very manual and disgusting process. The majority of the workers there were immigrants (most illegal, I would suspect). I seriously doubt the would be able to fill those jobs entirely with Americans unless they increased the pay significantly.
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GOP Man
Citizen
Username: Headsup
Post Number: 348
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 5:18 pm: |
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what are you talking about? in my day, we take those jobs, and we'd pull ourselves up by our bootstraps even if we were standing ankle deep in entrails. none of us were too proud to turn up our noses at slaughterhouse jobs. we'd work hard, save our money and move up the ladder. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1492
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 8:28 pm: |
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In my previous life, I did every crappy job that is done by today's immigrant force. And you're right about today's youth; I know too many whose first job will come after they graduate college.
But there are two fallacies in play regarding the illegal workforce that are never adequately factored in. One is that they are all struggling to get here to build a better life and relocate their families; many are here strictly to make untaxed money to send home. It is a short-term way to earn far beyond what their homeland will bear with no contribution toward this country. And the other is that the absence of the illegal workers would cost us more in products and services. Yes, and no. While we save money on undocumented workers on those fronts, we contribute more via additional schooling, medical coverage and social services. Injured day workers sue the employers who hire them on a given day, including homeowners, and they are liable for those injuries. If one is crippled or worse, the small business owner or homeowner can lose their shirts. Many bring in wives or parents who have never worked a day here and enroll them on public assistance while they work under the table- a classic double-dip. And all use hospitals with no visible means of paying for these services, yet none are turned away by law. The rationale is that hospitals can recoup via collection agencies who will attach their wages. One problem; cash workers with no Social Security numbers are hard to garnish. So those costs are passed along to the honest workers with rate increases and higher copayments. Ask the small business owners or the hospital billing departments who have eaten these losses. I have.
The illegal workforce saves us nothing, and it circumvents the process that is utilized by honest emigres. It's not xenophobic to say that we can't afford to carry those who circumvent the system; it is a practical reality that they cost too much and contribute too little. |
Mr. Big Poppa
Citizen
Username: Big_poppa
Post Number: 608
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 8:48 pm: |
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Brett, I don't think anyone has done the full analysis of the economic benefits vs. costs. But, before jumping to the conclusion that they must leave the US, I think this analysis should be done.
I agree that they often earn untaxed monies. If their salaries were taxed, that would help address some of your concerns above. However, at the same time, they might not be able to work for those low wages anymore, so there would have to be some sweet salary spot above what they are earning now.
All in all, I believe the following have to be considered on the illegal immigrant decision:
-economic realities (cost/benefit)
-logistical problems (Can we really keep the border non-porous? Can we really track down illegal aliens?...and at what cost?)
-philosophical concerns (what kind of country do we want to be?)
I don't have the answers. There are no easy answers to this, but, unlike several posters on this thread, I won't succomb to agreeing to a decision based solely on emotion.
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Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3371
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:18 pm: |
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What part of the word "illegal" don't people understand? There are legal ways to immigrate to this country. If you sneak across the border, overstay your student or work visa, or enter without permission some other way, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW. If you want to come here to live the American Dream, return to your own country and apply to enter legally. ANd then wait your turn. I never liked people who jumped the line at the supermarket cause they thought that they were better or in more of a hurry than me. This is the same thing. Enter legally, work on a green card, apply and become a citizen. Don't penalize those people who are following the rules and waiting for their turn. And when you become a citizen, become an American. Learn our primary language, wave our Flag, sing our national anthem. |
GOP Man
Citizen
Username: Headsup
Post Number: 351
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:40 pm: |
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yes, but please bring the foods from your native land. where would we be without the burrito? |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 806
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:30 pm: |
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100% less sick to the stomach and 100% better off witout taco bell |
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3376
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:43 pm: |
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I have many friends who immigrated here legally, and I love their Albanian, Mexican, Finnish,Nigerian, Brazilian, Indian, British (ok, well not British) food. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 808
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:51 pm: |
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Well of course you do. Without other foods, Americans are left with hamburgers. |
GOP Man
Citizen
Username: Headsup
Post Number: 352
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
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but only if those foods were introduced by legal immigrants. I'd be horrified if I ever found out that the pad thai I was enjoying was popularized by a criminally illegal immigrant.
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Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3377
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:02 pm: |
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Mr. GOP MAN, I thought that criminal and illegal imply the same thing. Why the need to be redundant? My point was in response to you previous post. Do we need Illegal aliens to introduce us to yummy food? I think not. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 189
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:05 pm: |
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Has the Daddy Yankee re-mix come out yet? |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1493
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:45 pm: |
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Library Lady- That's a fairly bold, edgy side of you that I'm not quite used to. I like it! You're absolutely right. I don't think anyone posting here is anti-immigration, but there are rules and laws. Imagine what would happen to any of us if we crossed into another land illegally and were caught.
Most of us have seen a few social injustices in our lives, and we've seen people take to the streets for many causes. We've probably all done it ourselves. But this "Day of Outrage" doesn't even register a blip in the grand scheme of things, except that some lawns grew a bit longer and the carwashes were closed. One thing is sure; not a blessed soul was outraged enough to leave. |
Mr. Big Poppa
Citizen
Username: Big_poppa
Post Number: 610
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 8:12 am: |
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I don't think that anyone is arguing that they aren't breaking the law. However, it is pretty evident the law isn't working or not being properly enforced. Laws can be changed or created, that's what congress does. There are plenty of laws on the books that have not been changed for ages, but are practically inapplicable.
So, now that we all agree laws are being broken, what do you propose the government does about it?
How much money should they spend to round up and process the illegal immigrants? Maybe we could get the National Guard to do it....oh wait, they are all in Iraq!
How much money should be spent on building a wall across the Mexican border?
How much money should be spent on constantly securing that wall?
How much attention should the government spend on dealing with this issue when there are much greater things to address in our country?
This is why Bush was re-elected. Too many people in this country get caught up in the emotional issue du jour and too quickly take a stand on an issue without thinking it through. Our country has limited financial resources...we cannot keep spending money without thinking things through. |
Gene Z
Citizen
Username: Genez
Post Number: 600
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 8:29 am: |
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One song -- one lyric???
Do you realize that you can sing the lyrics to "Amazing Grace" to the melody of "The House of The Rising Sun?" And, vice versa!
Z
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Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5344
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 8:54 am: |
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Not only that, but you can sing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "Gilligan's Island".
Okay, so we've drifted a little, here ... |
ML
Supporter
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 2994
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 8:57 am: |
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no, that's not it. You can sing "Stairway to Heaven" to the tune of "Gilligan's Island." |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5345
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 9:08 am: |
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Hey, fella, give it a try before you disagree like that.
Unfortunately, then you wind up with the "Gilligan's Island" tune stuck in your head all day.
And that's harder to chase out than an illegal alien (just trying to get back on topic). |
ML
Supporter
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 2996
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 9:16 am: |
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you know, you can also sing "Thunder Road" to "Gilligan's Island." it's eminently adaptable (just like an undocumented alien). |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1494
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 9:50 am: |
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I've heard Gilligan's Island sung to Stairway to Heaven... |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 2069
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 1:03 pm: |
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You know what's an outrage? Not only are immigrants singing the National Anthem in Spanish, but so are candidates running for the office of President of the United State! Now I'm really angry! |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4844
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 1:27 pm: |
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maybe we can make it an impeachable offense. |
Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1475
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 4:48 pm: |
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How strange - it's almost like the guy would just say whatever was most expedient at the time, with no regard for truth or his actual views.
Very, very strange. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4847
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 8:48 pm: |
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wow, that link sure slammed this thread shut, didn't it? |
Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1477
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 9:29 pm: |
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Not that I noticed... though the whole "Confederate Flag" thing sure did close the discussion.
 |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1501
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
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That's because we're in N.J., where the Confederate Battle Flag has only one meaning. Down south, arguments rage on about whether it's a symbol of hate or a venerated object. Native southerners tend to have strong opinions toward one view or the other. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1947
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 10:43 pm: |
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The economy is global. Money and people go to where the returns are best, and native-born Americans will simply have to get used to this.
A nation where the majority of native-born workers are too brainwashed to form unions will never take collective action against undocumented immigrants.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1505
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 11:07 am: |
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"A nation where the native-born workers are too brainwashed to form unions will never take collective action against undocumented immigrants".
What nation are you living in, Montagnard? Unions are stronger here than anywhere else in the world. They are the single greatest voting blocks that politicians court- AFL-CIO, telecommunications, teachers, public safety, ironworkers, electricians, carpenters, etc. Even the United Farmworkers have taken active steps to stave off non-union immigrants from undercutting their members. Undocumented doesn't bother them; paying no dues and working as scabs does.
Just because illegals work as day-laborers, dishwashers and landscapers doesn't mean they can work anywhere. Those jobs are peripheral labor that are too low-paying and piecemeal to effectively unionize. The majority of U.S. workers have some type of union affiliation, and unions still protect their turf by any means necessary, including muscle. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14050
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 11:47 am: |
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Brett Weir wrote: Unions are stronger here than anywhere else in the world.
I don't think so, though I could be wrong. Union numbers are definitely declining here. And I am under the impression that in France and Italy, almost everyone belongs to a labor union.
The majority of U.S. workers have some type of union affiliation
Again, I don't believe this at all.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1510
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 1:34 pm: |
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Well, how about this Tom; try to imagine if large numbers of union members did what the immigrant segment did on Monday- think that might ruin a few peoples' day? What did a short Transit strike do the N.Y.C.? Every product is trucked loaded and unloaded by a union worker at some point. Nurses, teachers, meatcutters, tollworkers, construction, plumbers, gargage haulers and so on. Cops, firefighters, public works, hotel workers. Even the doormen sent a chill through city dwellers by threatening a job action- DOORMEN! Try living in any developed area of this country without utilizing multiple union products and services every day. One union striking can cripple a city; multiple unions striking could stop the nation in its tracks.
BTW, a continued "hats off" to our local SOMEA members for continuing to work without a contract... |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 175
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 2:55 pm: |
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Brett:
I think most Unions are completely unrealistic in their demands.
I mean most people go to work without a contract. I have never had a contract..
There are alot of other things Unions demand which are completely unrealistic and would never happen in the private sector:
Who has tenure in their work place? I can get fired any day.
Who has 8 weeks of vacation? Not me, I have three weeks after 15 years
Free healthcare? Not me, I don't know a private sector company that doesn't ask their employees to contribute.
I think most union demands are completely unrealistic nowadays. There was a time for them but that time has come and gone.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1511
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 3:33 pm: |
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Bajou- I strongly disagree. And it never ceases to amaze me how many of the same people who champion the causes of illegal immigrants will begrudge American workers the very same benefits. Public sympathy tends to turn on a dime much like fashion; I guess the average working man or woman who puts in 60-80 hours per week to make ends meet just isn't "stylish" enough for some- or maybe it really is all about inexpensive lawncare and bargain meals.
As far as your work situation, I assume that no one is holding you there at gunpoint; if you feel so poorly treated you can always deliver mail or pick up garbage. Teachers are always needed, and crime, fire and medical emergencies happen 24/7. You may have to consider a serious cut in pay, and you may get stuck working nights/weekends/holidays for the first 5-10 years, but it will all even out in the end. |
Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1495
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 3:58 pm: |
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I am a management employee in a heavily unionized shop... and the union seems to have bred an environment of sloth and entitlement. It is really a shame - and yet, if the union didn't exist, these people would be at the mercy of the company. I wish I knew the 'happy medium' compromise, but I just don't. |
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