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Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 579
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 8:07 am: | 
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This is a question for anyone whose taken a friendly wager on the golf course, at work, or anywhere else, only to see the bet devolve into a petty argument over who actually won the bet? My question is what the unwritten Laws are governing the bet when there is ambiguity in the outcome? I've always assumed that the intent of the bet should hold, over any odd semantics....as an example:
If you are on the golf course, and your buddy says "I bet you won't hit the ball 300 yards" and you hit it 320 yards, he could theoretically claim he meant 300 yards on the nose, and since you didn't clarify, he won, or the bet was void....
As I said before, I'm not a fan of winning or losing on a technicality or a semantics issue, but am wondering if you should pay up on these bets anyway?
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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2299
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 8:27 am: |
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I think you have to look at your thread title: Gentleman’s Bet. That’s exactly what it is. The person trying to weasel out is not being a Gentleman. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 581
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 8:31 am: |
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Brett, I suppose that's the root of my question? Which party is trying to weasel out? I've always assumed it's the individual trying to win/push on a technicality/semantic issue, but I just realized that maybe I'm wrong, and in being wrong, I've been the weasel??? |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2301
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 8:34 am: |
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I responded to quickly to be clear, sorry. I think the person that is pushing to win, or pushing to have the other guy pay up is wrong. The person losing the bet should freely hand over the money (or whatever else), because he understands that he lost. If there is any argument whatsoever then it has stopped being a gentleman’s bet and turned into a wager. |
Lucy
Supporter
Username: Lucy
Post Number: 3606
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 8:59 am: |
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Brett your right on the money! |
Eric Wertheim
Citizen
Username: Bub
Post Number: 202
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 9:07 am: |
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My batting average for paid bets btwn friends is about 5%, if that. Much more fun to bring it up every few years with "dont you owe me ..." |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 226
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 10:14 am: |
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Just become part of the litigation epidemic, sue. I predict in 2025 everyone will be walking around with their own personal lawyer. Just in case. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11390
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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A lot of golf bets among friends are made for the bicker factor. The 325 yard drive (I am impressed) on a 300 yard bet is a good example. The golfers can bicker about that one for the whole round and through a couple of beers at the 19th hole. This depends, I admit, on the people involved. One of my former bosses used to cheat on his score card, use the hand wedge, etc. all the time in order to win side bets. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7522
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 11:00 am: |
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Holding the outcome of the bet to the exact wording (it was not exactly 300 yds) is something that my brothers and I did as children to torture each other. And, as others have said, good naturedly rib each other about today.
Example: When Baby Bro was proposing to his girlfriend, we had a pool as to what date he would do it. He had it all planned two months ahead of time, but is notorious for not being able to keep secrets. TS, my sis-in-law and other two brothers picked days we thought he would cave by. The bet was $20 and TS won. No one ever paid or collected, but we still joke about it 5 years later.
Brett is right; a real Gentleman/woman will accept the spirit of the bet and graciously pay. Of course, I also think that between friends, the winner would refuse the money and say "you can just buy me a drink later."
Bets between friends are for bragging rights. Unless, of course, it's a poker game. In which case, no holds barred.  |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 1077
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 4:04 pm: |
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One man's thoughts.
If somebody says "I bet you can't ..." I think its just another occassion for amusement as their jaw drops when I do; or I invoke the wrath of the dieties if I don't.
If somebody says "I bet $50 you can't ..." I expect to get paid, or pay them, depending on the outcome.
Bringing dollars into a situation takes it out of the realm of a "Gentlemen's Bet". Gentlemen can certainly wager, but gentlemen pay their debts.
What's that line from The Magnificent Seven:
"Chris, its a contract that no court will ever enforce.
Yes Harry, but its just the kind of deal that a man keeps."
As I wrote, just one man's thoughts, although I would never make another wager with the guy if I were Smarty.
TomR
Oh! And just for Greentree, in my experience, amongst friends, when we all get to the bar afterward, the winner puts the money down and buys the drinks. A lesson learned when I was eight, or so. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7534
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |
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Of course the winner pays! That's just what s/he says. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 592
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 4:18 pm: |
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So Tom, to ensure i understand you, you suggest that you Pay the bet (even though a technicality was invoked by the winner), and just make a note never to bet with the fellah again? |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1503
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 4:28 pm: |
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Gentlemen (and ladies) don't welch, grumble, cajole or otherwise stonewall; they make good on their wagers. If someone has demonstrated poor sportsmanship once, I don't accept further bets. A bit archaic maybe, but I attach a significant amount of personal honor to such things. |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 1079
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 6:49 pm: |
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Smarty,
I was more addressing the nature of a "Gentleman's Bet" than your particular circumstance.
Not knowing the nature of your relationship with the other party, I am reluctant to tell you how you should handle the circumstance. But...
Back in the late 60's, I was standing on a street corner after a high school dance with the most fetchingly beautiful young lady you could imagine. Also with us was one of her good friends and her date, we'll call him Brian for convenience sake. Brian and I knew one another, but were not friends, or even buddies. We were acquaintences.
Brian sees a car across the street, a very wide street (does anybody know Fordham Road in Da Bronx?) and declares "there's a new Mustang". I look over my shoulder and inform him that it is not.
Brian persists that the automobile is, indeed, the new Mustang and after declining to agree with him several times, Brian inquires whether I would care to wager on whether the automobile was the new Mustang. I said sure, I'll go five dollars on that.
Brian gets in my face and snarls "how about fifty" to which I respond "I'll bet fifty dollars that you will find no markings on that car that indicate that it is a Mustang". Brian crosses the street, circles the car, several times, frequently squatting to read the available markings on the car, and recrosses the street, in somewhat of a huff, and rejoins us.
I put my hand out for my fifty as I ask what he found, and as he grabs his young lady's wrist and storms away, calls over his shoulder "you didn't think I was serious about the fifty dollars?"
The guy owes me fifty dollars.
He hasn't paid so far.
Your guy bet you wouldn't hit the ball 300 yards. You did. And another twenty.
IMO, both my, and your, guy have welshed on a bet.
If he wanted to bet that you would hit the ball only 300 yards, he should have said only. That's why we have all those words in our language. They all have a use and meaning.
Look at it another way.
A wager is a contract, although unenforceable in court, a contract nonetheless. (See my comment above regarding Chris and Harry.)
The writer of the contract (or the proposer in the case of an oral contract) is responsible for any ambiguities in the contract, absent a counter proposal.
You indicated no counter proposal to your buddy's wager proposal, so the problem is his. If he meant "only 300 yards, he should have said so. (The Merchant of Venice notwithstanding).
He owes you the money.
What you do with this particular buddy, I leave up to your own good judgement.
TomR
Oh! And just for Greentree, sorry I misunderstood that after saying it, the winner pocketed the money. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 242
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 7:46 pm: |
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Someone call Gamblers Anonymous. |
Dhearon
Citizen
Username: Dhearon
Post Number: 51
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 8:49 am: |
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I'm debating this very thing right now, and could use your opinions...my college roomate is a BoSox fan, and he approaches me with a bet on Tuesday morning that "The Yankees won't win tonight" vs. his team, the Red Sox.
Wouldn't you know it, the game gets postponed so I assume it's a push. He says he wins, because the Yankees surely didn't win (and he's got an email to prove that that was the wording). My opinion was, the spirit of the bet was a win/loss of Yankees/Red Sox game, but on the wording of the bet, I lose. I thought the Rain out meant it's a push.
What would you do? |
Wendyn
Supporter
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 3072
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 8:52 am: |
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If it isn't much money I'd just pay him and YOU be the gentleman.
If he is a gentleman he'll refuse the money. But then if he were a gentleman he never would have asked for it. |
Hank Zona
Supporter
Username: Hankzona
Post Number: 5557
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 9:27 am: |
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Dhearon,
If he really insists on the money under those circumstances, he is a weasel...kick his •••. Or tell him that you will transfer the bet to the make-up date in August. Finally, share with him this picture that typifies the class shown by many of his fellow Sox fans...tell him you thought he was different.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1504
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 10:45 am: |
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Denis Leary, Jr.? |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1642
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 10:59 am: |
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Dhearon - Use your friend's weaseliness back at him and tell him "OK - you win, but I never specified WHEN I would pay up." |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3006
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 11:51 am: |
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I'm just amazed that TomR was going to bars at eight. 
"when we all get to the bar afterward, the winner puts the money down and buys the drinks. A lesson learned when I was eight, or so." |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14065
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 4:25 pm: |
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I'm not going to seek out the loser of my bet, but when I see him, I'll remind him of our bet. I haven't seen him since before November, when we made the bet.
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TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 1083
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 8:30 pm: |
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Rastro,
You misunderstand.
I was eight, or so, when I learned the lesson.
Being in a bar started earlier.
The 50's were different.
TomR |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 289
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 8:49 pm: |
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Just sue everyone.
Its the American way. |
Cerebrus Maximus
Citizen
Username: Xtralargebrain
Post Number: 17
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 11:22 pm: |
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Curiously, none of the politically correct liberals that participate in this forum seem to find the photograph posted by Hank Zona (see above) offensive. This photgraph is just another example of how messed up parents (who should have been sterilized) can exploit and corrupt a young human being who will likely go on to become a useless hooligan and miscreant.
Thats sooo hysterical Hank. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 2397
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 12:09 pm: |
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I just got back from Myrtle Beach and this issue came up. One of the guys in the group (I went with my brother's friends all of whom I had never met before) suggested we play a skins type match. He wasn't a bad golfer but the day before I caught him cheating - not recording strokes when he incurred a penalty. He'd hit his ball O.B. and then miraculously end up with a par on the hole. Normally I don't care about stuff like that and for the amount of money that we were betting it wasn't worth arguing but it really bugged me that he would cheat. Any way he made such a fuss over the scoring and every time he added the scores up the results kept changing, always in his favor. After a while I said to him, "Look, just tell me how much I owe and who I owe it too and I'll settle up." He wouldn't let it go. He wound up winning 9 of the holes, I won 5 and the other four holes were split between the remaining 5 guys.
Before dinner he came up to me and reminded me that I owed him some money and that he had taken it upon himself to collect on my behalf from the other guys. So I took my winnings and promptly turned over all of it to him and said, "here is my gift towards tonights bar tab." Wouldn't you know that later that evening he didn't once offer to buy a round and when he left Saturday evening I found out that he only offered to pay for a two night stay claiming that since he arrived very early Thursday morning (rather than Wednesday night after getting lost).
I guess to answer the original question if it happens once I'd let it pass like the guy in the skins game from my trip. However, if it happens again I write that person off and never accept bets/games from him again. Most of the time its not worth arguing over since the amounts are nominal but it definitely reflects poorly on a person's character if they welch on a bet due to a technicality. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 605
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 12:41 pm: |
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that's a nightmare situation. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14126
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 2:50 pm: |
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Agreed, and true to your name, you were a very good sport about it.
Welcome back, and obviously, you can ignore the message from me on your answering machine. Problem solved.
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sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 2399
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 10:51 am: |
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Tom, I just got your message last night when I got home. I arrived home late Sunday evening and my wife neglected to tell me that you had left a message.
Sorry about that. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14153
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 11:07 am: |
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No trouble at all. I called around to a few people, looking for a ride, and I ended up getting one. Thanks!
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