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anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2686
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 5:23 pm: | 
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FvF:
One can be an observant Synagogue going Jew and might be Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Modern Orthodox, Traditional Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, Hassidic, or any number of variations. And within each group, no two people will agree on everything. In fact a Syrian Jew I know, who practised an Orthodox form of Judaism, and prayed everyday, but out of economic necessity opened his business on Saturdays, once told me a Syrian expression which translated as "Every man is his own Rabbi". |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2687
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 5:28 pm: |
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Shanabana:
Good luck with the Unitarians tomorrow. If it's not a good fit, try something else next week.
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 334
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 5:34 pm: |
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anon-
then he is a hypocrite. ( sorry can't find a '30s movie expression)
The standards and requirements are clear. I am not dati, but respect those who are. Chabad does not judge, but IMHO they wish to bring you on the right path.
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anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2699
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 4:54 pm: |
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FvF:
I disagree that he is a hypocrite. Hypocracy is preaching one thing and doing another. You seem to think that one must either be a fanatic or not religious at all. "Standards and requirements" are argued about all the time.
What is "dati"?
Shanabana:
Did you go to Church? How was it? |
Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1820
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 5:27 pm: |
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I'm an atheist - my kids were baptized and I fully agree that makes me a big fat hypocrite - or a semi-hypocrite because my husband is Catholic and drinks the wine/Kool-aid with a straight face and really wanted them to be baptized.
On the other hand, my husband doesn't adhere to much of anything that the Pope decrees, and the Pope says there's no wiggle room, so I don't consider him a "real" Catholic so much as a sentimental former altar boy.
Which is fine and dandy with me. Tradition, sentimentality, history - all perfectly good reasons to go to whatever house of worship fits.
What I find hypocritical is when people identify themselves with a religion, but do the a la carte version. Like FvF said, either you're in or you're out.
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Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 380
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 9:22 pm: |
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I went to the Unitarian Universalist place in Summit and met CBataille. Really neat place. Beautiful, place, very welcoming. Much of the service turned out to be a highschool student presentation on racism, with discussion from the floor. Great music (Life Every Voice and Sing, eg). I can imagine my kids growing in such a place.
Lydia: I just don't think you're right on the "either you're in or you're out" issue. I KNOW there are Catholic priests and nuns who differ with the Pope on many points. The current Pope's version of Catholicism is different from that of, say, Julius II, in the early 16th century. Especially since Catholics don't take the Bible literally, it is an interpretation-rich religion. And--here's the goodie--you can be absolved of your sins at the very last moment of your life.
That said, I don't know your husband. He may well be a hypocrite. |
C Bataille
Citizen
Username: Nakaille
Post Number: 2596
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 9:42 pm: |
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Shanabana, it was nice meeting you and your husband. Once a year the high schoolers take on the responsibility of planning the service and that's what you observed today. Last year their theme was ecology. I'm glad you came and that you felt welcomed. You're right, it's a really neat place. |
Ben
Citizen
Username: Ros
Post Number: 300
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 10:16 pm: |
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As a proud father of one of the high schoolers who helped plan and present the service at Summit UU today, I echo the 2 previous posts: it is a special place. My other child helped plan and execute the 5th grader car wash, raising funds to purchase toys,etc for children of victims of domestic abuse-the kids throughout the entire program are pretty amazing, which says a lot for the congergation as a whole. I'm glad you felt welcomed, Shanabana, I hope to meet you there sometime-maybe CBataille will introduce us! |
Ben
Citizen
Username: Ros
Post Number: 301
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 8:18 am: |
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oops "congregation"--I need to watch my night time posts more carefully! |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 421
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 10:12 pm: |
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"Such rituals don't necessarily denote that you believe something. It's a tradition. It may signify a connection to one's people or religion."
Tom: Baptism is not a tradition. Christmas Trees are a tradition. Baptism is a Sacrament and like Communion (see other recent thread) is not to be trifled with. I'm not saying that there aren't some people who participate in the Sacrament without sincerity, I'm just saying that if you don't intend to raise your child in the faith because you don't believe in God, don't waste everyone's time with a Baptism. If on the other hand, you're just not sure, Baptize.
Now, if you approached your Rabbi and told her you didn't believe in God and then asked her to preside over a Bris, how would she respond?
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11448
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 4:32 am: |
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Even if you have doubts about religion and even God there is nothing wrong with having a child Baptised as long as it is your intent to raise the kid in the faith. We had this discussion with a Priest when our kids were Baptised.
This is one of those things that is going to vary from priest to priest, minister to minister and among various denominations. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14148
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 7:32 am: |
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Joe R, good point. It is very disrespectful to trifle with some traditions. I've been to a couple of baptisms and remember the charge and the promise to raise the child in the faith.
My rabbi is open minded and would probably welcome a family who didn't believe in God. I'm not sure she believes God is a supernatural being. She probably believes God is the collective consciousness or something like that. She may have "faith" that eventually, the family who comes for a bris will eventually become regular congregants and adherents.
When I was first married (i.e. my first marriage), we sought a rabbi to marry us, even though we were not observant at the time. Not surprisingly, we had a little trouble. The rabbi who married us said he hoped we would eventually become more observant. Well, he doesn't know, but he got his wish, so perhaps he wasn't such a fool.
The injunction to buy into the whole religion or not at all is like saying a person shouldn't have any doubts. To me, that sounds like telling a person not to be human or not to have any fears. We all have doubts.
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frannyfree
Citizen
Username: Frannyfree
Post Number: 192
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:18 am: |
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In order to PICK a religion, a person has to have lived it to understand it.
"My kids are both and can choose one when they grow up" I hear this all the time. These kids aren't both, they are neither. One cannot choose as an adult something that they never understood.
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C Bataille
Citizen
Username: Nakaille
Post Number: 2600
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:31 am: |
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Franny: I'm confused. Adults don't have the capacity to consider options (including past experiences) and make choices???? What level of prehistoric development are we talking about here? |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11457
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:50 am: |
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Tom, exactly the point. The brighter members of the clery realize that peoples views change and take a long term view. When our kids were Baptised my wife had been away from the Church for 20 plus years. As the kids grew she returned, although on her own cafeteria basis. |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 384
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 10:09 am: |
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Adults choose religion all the time. Some sects preach that baptism should only be performed at a point when the person can choose it, and set themselves thus distinctly against the Catholic practice of infant baptism. |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 425
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 12:25 pm: |
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Tom: I'm a little shocked to hear you say that you have a Rabbi who may not believe in God as a supernatural being. Isn't this the same as saying she doesn't believe in the God of the Torah?
The rest of you, don't pick on Franny, she's my neighbor and might blame me for setting off this firestorm (kidding). But, I happen to know a few adult converts to Catholicism. They go through a long process of education and play "catch-up baseball" in being initiated into the Sacraments (Baptism, Communion, Confirmation). They are extremely devout. Sometimes I think this is because they come to it late and with a wealth of world experience. Actually, for similar reasons, this is why the Catholic practice of Baptizing infants gets criticism. The critics would say, how can a two month year old baby make the informed decision to embrace a faith? The answer is obviously, they cannot. I'm not 100% sure, but I have never heard of an account of Jesus baptizing an infant. Many other Christians delay baptism until early adulthood. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14157
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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It's probably unfair for me or you to speculate on my rabbi's beliefs here. But I think it's fair to allow for the belief that the Torah is a sacred text and that old interpretations of who God is are obsolete. Life has changed and belief in supernatural stuff doesn't fit well into the rest of life for many of us.
I think you're moving dangerously close to proclaiming what a person must or must not believe. Not that I think you mean to be disrespectful, but perhaps you should consider that a wide range of beliefs is tolerable, at least in some circles.
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frannyfree
Citizen
Username: Frannyfree
Post Number: 193
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 2:52 pm: |
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I did not mean to say that adults can not choose. We all do.
But if you expect your children to be able to choose a religion first, without having lived it in your home, you are kidding yourself.
A child that never lived with a religion is not LIKELY to choose one. |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 426
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 3:46 pm: |
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Right you are Franny.
Tom: If you knew me better you'd know I'm far from a proclaimer of anything. I certainly do not claim to have it all figured out. Franny will tell you I have a hard enough time trying to figure out how to grow tomatoes. I was just expressing surprise that a member of the clergy (for lack of a better term) of any subset of Judaeo-Christian monotheistic belief could possibly not believe in God. Until this day, which I won't forget for a long time, I never would have considered it to be within the realm of speculation as to whether a Rabbi, Priest, Imam or Minister of any stripe believed in God. That much I thought I could take for granted.
Like anyone else, they could have a crisis of faith, but then I don't see how they could lead a congregation of believers for very long in that state. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14169
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 3:58 pm: |
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To say she doesn't believe in God is equivalent to saying you know without a doubt who God is. As I said, I think it's unfair to speculate on her beliefs. I didn't say she doesn't believe in God, and if I am reading you right, you are saying it, and you haven't even met her. How have I misled you?
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 427
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 5:04 pm: |
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Tom: This is worse than angels on the head of a pin. You said of your Rabbi: "I'm not sure she believes God is a supernatural being". God, as we have been taught to understand God in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, is "supernatural" by definition, the "Supreme Being" or the "Creator". Let's stop talking about your Rabbi since you are right that it is not fair to her. However, if a hypothetical Rabbi (or Priest for that matter)did not believe in the God of Abraham, would they still qualify to be a Rabbi in the Jewish tradition (or Priest in the Catholic tradition)on any level? I'm not needling you, I'm just curious. The collective subconscious might be a way for people to "experience" God, but it can't be God, can it? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14177
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 5:12 pm: |
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Why not?
We've heard that man cannot exist without God, but can God exist without man?
I think that a God with a consciousness, who might decide one day, "I think I'll make a solar system and bunch of species of life" and another day, "I think I'll send down lightning bolts" might be a limiting and limited view. Does God even have a sense of "I"?
Can humans truly grasp the concept of something that has no form?
Back to Shanabana, now that you enjoyed the Unitarian service, are you considering more adventures to places such as the Ethical Culture Society? We were toying with the idea of surveying the services at various places like that, plus churches and synagogues, but my daughter lost interest. I still think it's a nice idea.
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 428
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 5:39 pm: |
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Ok Tom I give up! Can God exist without man? Of course. God existed before man, or do you believe that the universe was created 60,000 years ago? Can God exist after man? Again, of course, and if we continue to screw the environment, we may find out sooner rather than later.
God is unknowable. You're right about that, but eminently approachable. Religion is a means of approaching God.
As for the rest of your last post, I can tell you're tired of the discussion. Me too. No one said anything about thunderbolts. It's all food for thought.
Thinking makes us better.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14181
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 5:48 pm: |
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I studied under a sufi sheikh who said there are seven levels of consciousness. The first three are feeling, awareness, and intellect. We think with our intellects. It is hard to imagine four levels of consciousness beyond the intellect! I can't claim to be an expert on this man's teachings, but I can imagine that he was correct when he said our intellects cannot fathom God. It's good to try, even though, paradoxically, it is also futile.
Therefore, I'm not sure it makes sense to speak in terms of timelines. I suspect that imagining man and God and wondering who existed first and who will exist last is meaningless.
Similarly to the question of the tree in the woods with no one to hear it fall, if there is no human pondering the unponderable, does God exist if there are no humans? You claim to have an answer ready. I don't.
My personal leanings are towards what might be called universal beliefs and worship, which I hope exist, beyond religion. I happen to be a member of a Jewish congregation at the moment, but it doesn't fully define who I am.
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SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 3303
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 5:52 pm: |
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Tom - Does God even have a sense of "I" Exodous 3:14
In a way, it's a bit of a Popeye response, but yes, God has a sense of "I" - I think God has a sense of everything. When we try to think of God's mind in human terms we run into problems. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14184
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 5:54 pm: |
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Wow, quick response, and yeah, it's Popeye-esque, too! I've seen that phrase in a Buddhist text, too.
Quote:3:14 And God said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.'
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3503
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 6:18 pm: |
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franny, Joe, et. al:
Tell you a story about my sons. Both raised in an entirely religionless household. Not necessarily atheistic, but if you watched us, you would probably say so. Husband was raised Catholic, and lapsed as soon as he was on his own. I was raised in Ethical Culture, yes, Maplewood, and before that a Cleveland meeting. All four of my grandparents were raised in Jewish religion and culture, but gave it up as soon as they were teenagers.
Now, both sons are at a large midwestern university. The older son gravitated to the intellectual discussions at the Jewish social organization at school and started attending Shabbas and then meetings, and loves high holidays. The younger followed him, and both revel in their Jewish roots on my grandparents' side.
Both boys were raised in a town in NJ surrounded by Polish-
American and Italian-American Catholics and Scots-Irish-American Methodists.
No theological teachings at home, at all. (Mea maxima culpa.)
One Catholic grandmother (very religious), one grandfather raised as Protestant, not terribly religious, one grandfather raised in a Jewish household, reform Judaism, one grandmother raised by Ethical Culturists.
There seems to be no particular rhyme or reason.
Liberal religious views of parents do not necessarily foretell the same in children. That's the moral of that story.
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 366
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 6:27 pm: |
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At this point, and after all this gratuitous advice, I would just lock the kids in the closet until they turn 18, then let them out and decide on what religion they want to be.
Considering the backlogs, DYFS would not investigate any of this until the kids were about 50 anyway.
(of course I am kidding people) |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 429
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 8:23 pm: |
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Tom: If you believe in a Creator God and if you agree that humankind is part of creation, then there can be no question of sequence. If, on the other hand, you think that God exists as an extension of humankind, then there is no God in the sense that I and others have been using the term. Maybe it's a question of terminology.
Having said that, I really do give up. There is no playing "can you top this" with a guy who studied under a sufi sheik. I studied under a crusty old Irish Monsignor. |
campbell29
Citizen
Username: Campbell29
Post Number: 433
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:05 pm: |
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For tulip - I think religion and religious fervor tend to perhaps run in familial sequence. Some of the most organized religion averse people I know grew up in very religious families, and I think after all was said and done, they just decided the hassle wasn't worth it, and that it either took up too much time, made them seem weird to their friends or they didn't believe it. Many people I know who turned to religion were brought up in families that had no religious beliefs what-so-ever. I can tell that my daughter has alot of curiousity about religion and god even though we never discuss it at home. (I think she might feel weird about not having a religion)
FWIW - Judaism (at least the reform version I know about) has a far more elastic version of what G-d is about than Catholicism (which seems pretty Orthodox). I don't find it at all surprising that a rabbi could define G-d as a collective conscience rather than a guy in the sky who knows if you've been naughty or nice. I would equate it to a UU minister or one of the more liberal protestant ilk. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3504
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:54 pm: |
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campbell29: True about religiosity going in cycles. Children tend to do the opposite of their parents.
So,everyone, if you want your children to be religious, maybe the thing is to disavow religion...? (Not guaranteed, to be sure!!) Maybe just don't be doctrinaire. They will choose what they will choose. That's ingrained in our culture, and our Constitution. |
Jersey Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 763
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:56 pm: |
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Reverse Psychology, I think it's called. Or is it Reverse Theology?
J.B. |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 430
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 10:07 pm: |
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Elastic God....Rubber Soul...hmmmmm. Another great idea for the name of an album! In the end, God is what God is. The way we think about God doesn't change God's nature. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14189
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 11:27 pm: |
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Joe R, you seem to be amazed that Jews (and Muslims, etc.) might think differently than Catholics.
I didn't mean to scare you away. You were incorrect that I was about to give up. I'm happy to talk about this more, but I won't force you, obviously.
Thank you, campbell29, for your final paragraph in your most recent post.
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 431
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 10:01 am: |
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Tom: I'm not amazed that Jews and Muslims think differently than Catholics. I already know that and respect it. Almost everyone thinks differently than Catholics. The source of my amazement was much more mundane than that; i.e. your suggestion that a Jewish Rabbi could hold to the belief that God was anything other than a supernatural being and the creator of all. I read a bit about Reform Judaism last night including the 1865 platform (not sure of the date), but could not find anywhere support for the suggestion that God was anything but the God of Genesis. I see support for the disposal of alot of the ancient rituals and forms and even the return to the Palestinian homeland, but nothing which touches on the fundamental Judaeo-Christian understanding of God. Is there a Jewish source you could point me to on this topic? The best times I have spent on the Board were the times I came away with new knowledge and ideas (like the time last year when someone straightened me out on the use of "Xmas").
You are one of the best and interesting contributors to the Board on any number of topics and I enjoy the dialog. As for Campbell's post, I admit that I don't know much about UU, but the principles and purposes as they relate to human dignity and social justice seem to line up perfectly well with my own. It's hard to think of it as a stand alone religion, however, because I think it is perfectly common for atheists to be members of UU. In that sense, it seems to me to be more of an ethical society. Maybe someone could tell me more.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11474
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 10:54 am: |
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Tom, here is an interesting link about Reconstructionist Judiasm which may be what you are talking about one way or another. This branch always seems to me to have a similarity to UU in its approach towards theism, although I make no claims to knowing much about it. Heck, I can't keep up with the 1,000 or so various protestant denominations. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14199
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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Bob assumes right, that my congregation is Reconstructionist, not Reform.
I feel guilty, because I wonder if this thread drift amounts to highjacking it from Shanabana's original intent. I guess it's OK if she finds it interesting, though. It might even be useful.
I will look for some references, Joe R. (And thanks for the compliment.) One book I think I already mentioned is What Do Jews Believe? and you may borrow my copy, if you like.
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 432
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 2:47 pm: |
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We sort of did hijack the thread. Maybe it's time to drop the mask and gun. I have a feeling Shanabana dropped out a while ago, but I think the discussion was stimulating enough not to discourage her. I will get a copy of the book in the library, but if I can't find it there, I may take you up on the offer. |
knak
Citizen
Username: Knak
Post Number: 162
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 7:55 pm: |
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When Tulip describes her sons' gravitation to Judaism, it sounds like a form of continuing the ethical framework and teaching of their family, rather than the opposite.
The search for a spiritual or religious home seems to me like the search for love.
Some believe there is one true love destined for each of us, and that you must spend your whole adult life with that person. That might work out beautifully for both. But for some, it is a grim commitment no matter how much you each change, or how poorly the relationship fits your needs. It doesn't always work out. Some people spend many years in frustration trying to find that person, or find them and then have it not work out, leading to feelings of abandonment and betrayal that are especially bitter because this person was the "only one" in the world, and it's impossible to imagine another worthwhile partner.
Others believe that if you are open and willing to work on a relationship, you will be able to find someone you love who also loves you, and make a good match. And if that ends, you will grieve but find love again, with someone who is different but also worthy of love and who gives you joy and sustenance.
Family values, religious values, ethical values - to me different names for describing how people strive to be good and to be connected to each other in a positive and responsible way. Celebrating & comforting with rituals, food & music makes it warmer.
(seeker/agnostic/Unitarian) |
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