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Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 344
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:53 am: | 
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Hey k_s
thanks guy/girl |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 345
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:56 am: |
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It will still be America. The same America that can sell me a highly taxed product but tell me where I can consume it. Works on both sides..
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Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2016
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:58 am: |
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I personally don't think you got thoughtful's point. It's called an analogy.
Just because you don't mind something doesn't mean that everyone else fells similarly. I don't mind walking around naked in public. Shouldn't public nudity be the law? So you feel comfortable (I would argue that you have a false sense of security) with loads of cameras watching you. I don't.
I already stated that there is a difference between cameras in public and private spaces. I used the 7-11 and elevator examples. If a company or private citizen owns the space they can film their space. Who owns the park or the street? Since you asked the same EXACT question, I can't help thinking that you have a bad memory or that you have lost your will to make your point successfully.
And just for the record, I would NOT feel better with cameras everywhere even if it meant they caught that one mugger from the ATM. First off, there aren't muggers at the ATM in town, so I don't see that there is a need to warrant the expense and false sense of security it would provide you (and I don't like the idea of cameras everywhere), which is what you just suggested in the post earlier. If the crime increases in a dramatic way in town and the need arises, let's discuss it then. You think (and are completely wrong) that I have a "mortal fear of loosing (my) personal freedom" and I think you have an irrational fear of being in public. |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 346
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 12:50 pm: |
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Dear Alleygater:
Have all of you lost your senses?
Yes I have gotten thoughtful's point and am aware of what an analogy is but you see you cannot make an analogy when one involves my comfortability about myself being taped walking down a public street and an incident involving a different party altogether with the statements having no common denominator at all.
I have stated several times now...
I said I don't care about being filmed by a surveillance camera.
and
I consider it an additional and very useful tool for the police to use and therefore consider it an enhancement to my personal safety and additional protection for my property.
And to your other point: Totally agree with you (your nudity point): So, lets make an analogy! Just because you don't like (hypothetically) when somebody smokes in a bar doesn't mean everybody else has to stop smoking in there right?? Oh no wait even if the owner of the establishment would prefer it to be a smoking establishment and the majority of the regular customers are smokers. I mean this is a democracy right and a person should be in charge of his or her property right?? Oh well NOT...
You wrote:
Who owns the park or the street? Since you asked the same EXACT question, I can't help thinking that you have a bad memory or that you have lost your will to make your point successfully.
I am not sure what you are referring to. I do admit having senior moments on a fairly regular basis but I think this one is yours. I never asked that question.
You also wrote:
You think (and are completely wrong) that I have a "mortal fear of loosing (my) personal freedom" and I think you have an irrational fear of being in public.
First of all the "mortal fear of loosing your personal freedom" was a joke ... maybe I need to change the color on the text next time so certain people don't forget that this is a local posting board which is suposed to entertain. Secondly what makes you think I was talking directly to you??? Third, I obviously have no problem with being in public since I don't even care if I am being taped doing just that.
SO TO CLARIFY THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL:
I DON'T CARE ABOUT BEING FILMED IN PUBLIC (AND THIS IS COMING FROM AN IMMIGRANT (LEGAL THOUGH) NO LESS (JOKE)). THE THOUGHT DOES NOT BOTHER ME AND I AM FOR IT CONSIDERING IT MIGHT PREVENT OR HELP SOLVE A CRIME.
PLEASE NOTE THAT I WROTE "I" AND THAT THIS IS MY OPINION WHICH I AM ENTITLED TO HAVE. I REALLY DON'T CARE IF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT AND YOU SHOULDN'T CARE EITHER SINCE I AM NOT GOING TO HANG THE CAMERAS... }
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mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6153
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 1:01 pm: |
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Alleygator,
There are muggers at the ATM in town. My older sister was mugged at the one by Cryans.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14302
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 1:17 pm: |
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Bajou, as you said, there are bad cops. That's why there should be limits on their powers.
The fact that you can cite an advantage to cameras doesn't make it sufficient justification. We're not denying that it would catch a few criminals. We're saying it's not worth the cost.
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gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 349
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 1:18 pm: |
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South Orange's surveillance cameras seem to have really helped out your sister, mem. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2023
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 1:20 pm: |
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But here is the thing. You are only one person, Bajou. And yet, you keep coming back again and again to make the same point. That you, the one person, feels this way. We got it already. You don't need to tell us again and again. Unless you are trying to make a bigger point, that your opinion is the right opinion and we should all follow your opinion. Are you right and I am wrong?
Your smoking rant (which is wholly unrelated to this topic -- and you have nerve throwing stones at thoughtful's glass house???) won't work on me. I smoked for over 10 years and I REFUSE REFUSE REFUSE to become one of those hyprocrites who now hates all things smoking. Smoke up. I support your right to smoke, and I think there should be public and private places for you to do so.
Don't make me go up into the thread history to prove your senior moment. Trust me, you did ask what is the difference between cameras in stores vs. cameras in the streets. I made the same point as Tom.
Reading humor (or tone of voice) is often lost online. I don't take anything you write all that seriously, as I'm sure you don't of my posts. No worries of you offending me as I am pretty thick skinned. I'm not sure your excessive need to post your same opinion with little deviation though would count as ENTERTAINMENT, even if your post was in a different color or was peppered with smilies.
My point about you being scared of the public was in reference to the fact that you think our town is so crime ridden that it needs to be heavily monitored all the time. I believe you were the one stating that people should be scared to go use our ATM because of muggings. I'm not scared of our town. Should I be? Until you prove me that I should, you won't see me EVEN ENTERTAINING THE IDEA that we need loads of cameras everywhere.
Maybe because you are an immigrant is the EXACT reason that you care so little for the things in our constitution. Maybe where you were raised you didn't have laws to protect you, and so you are unaccustomed or uncomfortable with such laws. The rights of the citizens are what make our country great. Please don't cheapen our country with your short sighted vision of the future and for what you wrongly PERCEIVE as safety. Where do you draw the line when it comes to privacy? What are you willing to give up for the illusion of safety? It's a serious question. If you don't know, you should. Because one day you might wake up and wonder how they get away with all the crap they get away with and it might finally be OVER the line for you. But by then it will be too late, because you didn't even bother to think about the issue at all and the line was crossed without you even noticing it. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6155
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 1:50 pm: |
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gj1,
This happened about 10 years ago. Perhaps you didn't realize there weren't cameras there then? Of course not. If there were I might have a better story to tell, such as, no mugging took place because cameras acted as deterrents, or, camera shots of the mugger digitally matched police shots of a kinown criminal. But, I guess you would rather my sister was mugged after all so you can do whatever it is in public that you're so scared of getting caught at.
Which reminds me, this creepy guy used to expose himself to us little girls at the candy store on Irvington Ave when I was about eight years old. I still have nightmares about him. If there were cameras there he would have been busted. Now, THAT would have been one of those good stories, true? |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 349
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 1:53 pm: |
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Dear Alley:
You are the one with the issue when it comes to accepting a difference in opinion.
I fell that the smoking ban is an infringement on my personal freedom just like you perceive the cameras to infringe on your personal freedom.
Let's again correct some points:
Case #1: (no not you CASE)
I did say:
"What's the difference between cameras in stores vs cameras in the street"
but I never said as you stated:
Who owns the park or the street? Since you asked the same EXACT question, I can't help thinking that you have a bad memory or that you have lost your will to make your point successfully. So this is your senior moment.. I am sure mine will follow shortly
The need to post similar posts in a row is fueled by the lack of reading ability of some posters.
Case #2:
You wrote:
I believe you were the one stating that people should be scared to go use our ATM because of muggings.
And you referred to the following statement I made:
Look at it this way..Let's say you get mugged at an ATM. The guy is wearing a mask and you have no idea what he looks like. Let's say the guy runs off and you see him ditching the mask. Would you not feel better if you know his face was caught somewhere along the way by a camera or would you rather protect your personal freedom and be uncomfortable every time you go back to that ATM?
I am glad you used the "maybe" to discribe where you think I am from but I can assure you it was not some scary third world country but Austria where the Hills are alive...I have also lived in this town for 19 years now and yes it has gone downhill when it comes to crime...actually dramatically
I am not some paranoid little wallflower who is afraid of my shadow and therefor feels the need to have the cameras. It just don't find it that bothersome considering I am being tapped pretty much everywhere I go and these tapes are being handled by unbonded, non background checked staff of some security company I don't even know who can make as many copies as they care to make.
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gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 350
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 2:14 pm: |
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I'm sure that even 10 years ago there was camera on the ATM. Why didn't that deter the mugger or lead to their arrest?
Also, part of my point was that Cryan's is not in Maplewood Center, though I'm sure you're aware of that. |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 355
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 2:47 pm: |
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Dear Gj1 - Actually there was not. |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 357
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 3:10 pm: |
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But here are some nice facts that maybe are of interest to some people:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_camera |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2027
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 4:05 pm: |
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My post had poorly laid out sentence structure, which confused you. I wrote, If a company or private citizen owns the space they can film their space. Who owns the park or the street? These sentences make sense together. I didn't mean to attribute (the next sentence which was) the question WHO OWNS THE PARK OR THE STREET? to you. It was MY question that seemed to make sense directly AFTER I pointed out that cameras in PRIVATE spaces are acceptable because they own those spaces and can do what they want with their spaces (within reason -- remember I mentioned the cameras in toilets the last time I brought this up?).
The question I am saying you repeated is, what is the difference between cameras in public and private spaces? That question I am attributing to you.
As for your other point, I am sorry if I misstated what you posted, but my greater point (what I wrote directly after that) was completely ignored by you. Here, let me repost it again for you to revisit: I'm not scared of our town. Should I be? Until you prove (to) me that I should, you won't see me EVEN ENTERTAINING THE IDEA that we need loads of cameras everywhere.
Also, I didn't imply that you came from a poor country (not that there would be anything wrong with that either). Are you implying that 3rd world countries can't have a great bill of rights or constitution for their citizens? Rights are free, and have little or nothing to do with aflluence of a nation that I know of. Rather I was just pointing out that you come from somewhere else, and maybe don't appreciate how good we all go it over here. Maybe you are willing to forego something that you never had.
Isn't Austria one of those countries that suggests that your neighbors spy on eachother and turn one another in to the authorities if they think they are doing something illegal? If that is true, then it doesn't surprise me that you are happy to be taped all the time. You (the national "you") are used to being spied upon and don't know privacy to cherish it.
And here once again, you completely ignored what I asked you. Is this about you attacking how I post and how I quote you? Or is this about understanding where you are coming from? I'm trying to analyze what you write, your points and counter them. I don't think it is asking that you do the same. Not everything is rhetorical. So let me reask you again: Where do you draw the line when it comes to privacy? What are you willing to give up for the illusion of safety? It's a serious question. If you don't know, you should. |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 362
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 1:57 pm: |
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Dear Alley:
To you first paragraph: Your misquoting me has nothing to do with me being confused about your poorly laid out sentence structure.
I really don't care if you are or are not scared of our town. I keep telling you the same thing over and over but it seems you can't, won't or don't care to get it: I DON'T CARE ABOUT BEING FILMED IN PUBLIC (AND THIS IS COMING FROM AN IMMIGRANT (LEGAL THOUGH) NO LESS (JOKE)). THE THOUGHT DOES NOT BOTHER ME AND I AM FOR IT CONSIDERING IT MIGHT PREVENT OR HELP SOLVE A CRIME.
Now to quote you: "Maybe because you are an immigrant is the EXACT reason that you care so little for the things in our constitution. Maybe where you were raised you didn't have laws to protect you, and so you are unaccustomed or uncomfortable with such laws. Then you continue...see above for end of quote "
Yes I would consider a country that doesn't have basic laws to protect the average citizen a third world country.
Next quote: "Isn't Austria one of those countries that suggests that your neighbors spy on each other and turn one another in to the authorities if they think they are doing something illegal? If that is true, then it doesn't surprise me that you are happy to be taped all the time. You (the national "you") are used to being spied upon and don't know privacy to cherish it."
Oh boy I am not even going to touch such an ignorate statment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria
And finally to your last question:
Where do you draw the line when it comes to privacy?
The only time I think I have real privacy is if I am in my own home. When I am in public I have reliquished my right to privacy because I am visible and my actions affect others.
What are you willing to give up for the illusion of safety? It's a serious question. If you don't know, you should.
To answer your "serious" question. As far as I am concerned I am not giving up anything by being recorded when I walk down the street. I do not consider cameras to be necessarily a preventitive safety tool but an additional investigative tool that leave fairly little margin for error.
With my best regards,
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14321
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 2:00 pm: |
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You answered the question, "do you think being filmed amounts to giving up something?" but he didn't ask that question. He asked you WHAT you would be willing to give up. So please list something that you have now and are willing to give up. Until you do, you have not answered the question.
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Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 364
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 2:33 pm: |
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Tom: What are you the rhetoric fairy..go get a life.
I don't have illusions of safety, I am a single mother. I have never been willing to give up anything for the illusion of my safety. Except for my rugs.. yes I did have to give up on my rugs when I took in a 90lbs shephard.
hey maybe I am just a ham ... |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2042
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 2:39 pm: |
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I went to the wikipedia link and didn't see anything on there that helped me figure out if Austria supported spying on ones neighbors. If I made that up, fine just say so. But having never been to Austria I wouldn't actually know. Austria and Germany have some shared history for certain, and I do believe that Germany does have a rat on your neighbor tradition. Feel free to educate me on the matter. But that link wasn't all that helpful in my education, I'm afraid to say.
I also know nothing about what rights Austrian citizens have or how their Constitution compares to the American one. Feel free to educate me there as well if your so inclined.
I was under the impression that 3rd world country meant that the country was fiancially poor and lacking things that wealthier countries have. Is this wrong?
I'm honestly not sure that our conversation really is going anywhere. I hear you LOUD AND CLEAR. You don't mind being filmed once you leave your house. In fact you like being watched because it makes you feel safe. And as long as you believe you are safe (regardless of whether you actually are or not) then it is worth spending all of the Maplewood citizen's tax dollars on these cameras.
I think cameras are a waste of money, and an invasion of my privacy. I don't feel like I am gaining anything by having a smattering of strategically placed cameras in town and I don't feel like there is a big enough threat to my safety currently to warrant this intrusion into my current lifestyle (which as of now still feels mostly unwatched when I am in public).
Seems to me that we both are just repeating the same crap so maybe it's time to just give it a rest. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6166
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
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"What are you willing to give up for the illusion of safety?"
Illusion of safety? Try being a female Tom. Not only do most of us NOT feel safe when we are alone most of the time no matter where we are, we don't even get to enjoy an illusion of it. So we have nothing to give up.
Next stupid question please? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14323
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 2:47 pm: |
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It wasn't my question, it was Alleygater's. I agree that use of the word "illusion" didn't add anything. I just pointed out that Bajou didn't answer the question until 2:33.
And I do have a life.
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Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 366
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:00 pm: |
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Tom..Sorry I work so it was 2.3pm. So if it was Alleygater's question what business of yours is it when I answer anther posters post???
Alley: If you truly desire to read up on a country that you have never visited and don't really know much about (self-confessed) then please feel free to do so.. on your time ..not mine...and preferably next time before you make statements that are completely idiotic.
and I agree..we disagree and that's ok. That's the beauty of America and Austria (you can disagree there too)
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14325
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:03 pm: |
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The hostility is entirely unnecessary. The soapbox section is for arguments, but you don't have to imply bad things about me just because I'm arguing with you.
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Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 368
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:05 pm: |
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Imply bad things????? |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2045
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:08 pm: |
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Tom she's not hostile. She's Austrian. If you could hear her voice inflection you would know the difference, I'm sure.
Bajou, my point, was I skimmed the link you sent me, and it didn't help to educate me on the issue you said I was ignorant about. Rather than send me useless links how about just educating me. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14326
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:09 pm: |
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...such as that I don't have a life. That I'm butting into an argument between you and Alleygater.
Look, I don't mind you having an opposing view. I'm just hoping to keep the discussion respectful. Your choice of words annoyed me, because it was getting a bit personal, and I've made no remarks about you at all. Having shared some private email with you, I would like to think we have a little in common, and I don't want to give that up merely because we disagree in this discussion.
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1896
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:13 pm: |
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Austria's a great place...if you're a Nazi. No one will tell on you. In fact, they may even let you have a say in government! |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2046
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:13 pm: |
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I just did a quick google search on the term "spy on one's neighbor" and almost every link was about Nazis and Adolph Hitler. Wasn't Hitler originally Austrian? Didn't Austria get subsumed by Germany in World War Two?
Fine call me ignorant all you want, but don't say I just made this stuff up out of thin air. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14327
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:15 pm: |
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The implications that Bajou has any Nazi sentiments is very mean, Alleygater. I would tell Robert Livingston, but I don't expect to get through to him/her.
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1897
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:17 pm: |
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I'm a him. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1898
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:19 pm: |
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And I didn't mean to imply Bajou is a Nazi, or has anything to do with Nazis, only that Austria and spying on one's neighbors is a laughable sentiment because of its past and current history with nazism.
Hope that's clear. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2047
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:23 pm: |
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I didn't imply that. You made that up Tom.
I asked, "Isn't Austria one of those countries that suggests that your neighbors spy on eachother and turn one another in to the authorities if they think they are doing something illegal?"
Rather than answer me, she called me ignorant. She then wasted my time by sending me an unrelated link that didn't actually educate me about whether or not Austria actually supports this behavior. So I did a google search. I reported what I found. Which still doesn't answer my question, but HOPEFULLY it explains how I could come up with SUCH AND IGNORANT THOUGHT.
But as I already said, I didn't call or imply anything about Bajou. Not to mention, Bajou is an American citizen now isn't she? |
gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 351
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:37 pm: |
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Alley, maybe you're thinking of East Germany, where something like 1 in 50 citizens where informants to the Stasi. But hey, East Germany had almost no crime! Sounds like heaven!
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Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 371
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 4:18 pm: |
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Damned it held out longer then I expected... I actually made a little bet with myslef to figure out how long it takes before the Nazi card is pulled.
Dear Alley: I sent you that link because it has a very brief but to the point section of politics, economics, government and history which I thought would be very beneficial since you said you didn't know anything about the country.
Dear Robert and others with similar views:
Yes Hitler was Austrian and yes Austria was annexed during WWII with very little opposition. May I supply you with some other facts which you might not be familiar with... In Austria it is a crime to draw the "Hackenkreuz" (Swastika) and it is forbidden (and very much punishable) by law to form clubs or groups that glorify Hitler and the Nazi's. Austria is very well aware of it's history and to make sure that future generations do not forget it made it mandatory for all 8th grade students to visit a concentration camp. Yes we have our Joerg Haider who is a governor of Carinthia who has very right winged opinions. He was elected by the Carinthians as head of a legal party and because we are a democracy there is nothing we can do. However remember one thing Carinthia is 9,536 km² with 559,404 inhabitants (smaller then Essex County). Most of them fairly poor farmers who are very worried about the immigration influx from their Slavic neighbors.. (Hmmm what does that remind me off? Right winged extremly nationalistic views in an area that has an immigrant passageway into a country...hmmmm sounds so familiar).
Austria has been a democratic republic from 1920 to 1939 and from 1945 onwards. Austria has been permanently neutral since 1955 (when Allied occupation ended) and does not supply nor have any military (but a mandatory national guard).
Famous Austrians (besides Hitler):
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Austria-FAMOUS-AUSTRIANS.html
Austria has many other things to offer:
http://www.greatperformancetours.com/winter_mozart.htm
http://www.nuclear-engineering.at/news/pfeifferl_2000_07_31_17_17_28
http://www.imf.org/external/np/ms/2005/050205.htm
And Alley ...all this is data is from the link I send |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 4:50 pm: |
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Yes, but only a little over five years ago, the Autrians let in the Freedom Party as part of its coalition administration. Guess that was the will of the people? Can you link to that? Care to tell us more about the Freedom Party? |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 373
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 5:21 pm: |
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Oh Robert first check your facts:
The Freedom Party is not new, it was formed in 1956. It is one of three main political parties. Read on for all the info you would like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Freedom_Party
Even though many of the FPÖ's leading proponents such as Anton Reinthaller and Friedrich Peter were former Nazis, as a third party it had a broad appeal among voters who felt uncomfortable both with the perceived deference to the Catholic Church of the People's Party and the fairly left wing socialism of the Social Democrats (then still called "Socialist Party") at that time. During the following decades, its adherents included anti-clerical liberals, business representatives striving for more economic liberalism and German nationalists, some of whom were sympathetic to some Nazi policies. Even today, the lower ranks of the party organisation are largely made up of members of German-nationalist Studentenverbindungen. However, this has rarely stopped other parties from cooperating with it, e.g. Bruno Kreisky's minority government (1970–1971) could only survive because the FPÖ agreed to tolerate it.
In 1980, the FPÖ's (Freedom Party Austria) liberal wing gained control under the leadership of Norbert Steger, who entered into a coalition government with the Social Democrats in 1983. Since results of local elections and polls showed that this threatened the party's existence, discontent with the party leadership grew, which enabled Jörg Haider to take over the party leadership at the Innsbruck convention of 1986 with the help of the party's German-nationalist wing. Social Democratic Chancellor Franz Vranitzky subsequently announced new elections and then entered into a coalition with the People's Party.
The coalition government
In the 1999 parliamentary election, the FPÖ received 27% of the votes, more than in any election before; by a small margin (about 400 votes, with 4.6 million Austrians voting) they even beat the ÖVP (the conservative "People's Party"), which had until then always taken first or second place in national elections.
In early 2000, the FPÖ joined a coalition government with Wolfgang Schüssel's ÖVP. The Freedom Party had to take a junior part in the coalition, as otherwise the ÖVP would have continued their coalition with the SPÖ. There was a great degree of outrage both within the country and internationally. The heads of government of the other 14 EU members decided to cease cooperation with the Austrian government, as it was felt in many countries that the cordon sanitaire against coalitions with parties considered as right-wing extremists, which had mostly held in Western Europe since 1945, had been breached. For example, for several months, other national leaders refused to shake hands and socialize with members of the Schüssel government. This was described as "sanctions" by representatives of the ÖVP and FPÖ, and supporters of the government often blamed social democrats and President Thomas Klestil for them, and questioned their loyalty to the country. The EU leaders soon saw that their measures were counterproductive, and returned to normality during the summer of 2000, even though the coalition remained unchanged.
In February 2000, Haider stepped down from the leadership of the Freedom Party. This was widely seen as a cynical move to appease foreign criticism, as he was alleged to control the party from behind the scenes. He retained the governorship of Carinthia.
Even though the FPÖ members of the government and the party leadership at that time consisted largely of politicians such as Susanne Riess-Passer and Karl-Heinz Grasser, whose career had so far depended entirely on Haider's populism, Haider himself appeared to be increasingly discontent with the situation, as his party began to lose in regional and local elections, since it was no longer in the position to gain votes by criticizing the government. This caused a dispute within the party, which escalated at a special party convention at Knittelfeld that caused three leading members of the government to resign (so-called Knittelfeld Putsch).
In the November 2002, general elections in Austria resulted in a landslide victory (42.27% of the vote) for the People's Party. The Freedom Party, which had been stronger than the People's Party in 1999 , was reduced to 10.16% of the vote, less than half its previous share. Nevertheless, the coalition government of the People's Party and Freedom Party (now with 79+18=97 seats in Austria's 183-seat parliament, down from 52+52=104 in 1999) was renewed in February 2003.
In September 2003, regional elections, notably in Upper Austria, also brought heavy losses, with the Austrian Green Party for the first time receiving more votes than the Freedom Party. The elections to the European Parliament in June 2004 reduced the Freedom Party's share of the vote to a mere 6%. Similar results were achieved at several state and local elections.
The FPÖ seemed to have largely lost its appeal to voters, except in Carinthia, where it gained 42.5% in the state elections of March 7, 2004. However, that success, most likely resting entirely on Haider's personal charisma, appeared to be rapidly losing its effectiveness in the rest of the country.
It is a very nationalistic party which has the same basic ideas as the right winged branch of the Republican party. That's is why I vote fro the "Green Party"
Cheers, |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 374
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 5:24 pm: |
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Oooohhhh just in case here is another link so you'll know the Green Party is not another Nazi Party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Green_Party |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2053
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 12:39 pm: |
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I'm sorry if you think I played the Nazi card.
At this point however, I do feel that this topic has GROUND TO A HALT. |
tom connelly
Citizen
Username: Brightontom
Post Number: 55
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 12:45 pm: |
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All threads on MOL lead to B&B's or Nazis. |
Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1605
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:03 pm: |
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1. Tom she's not hostile. She's Austrian.
2. I just did a quick google search on the term "spy on one's neighbor" and almost every link was about Nazis and Adolph Hitler. Wasn't Hitler originally Austrian? Didn't Austria get subsumed by Germany in World War Two?
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:26 pm: |
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I guess you have to actually be from Austria to talk about Austrian government of the past 50 years and not only not acknowledge the Nazis (renamed the Freedom Party, which was indeed an official part of the Austrian gov't as recently as 2000) but to instead post pictures from the Sound of Music bus tour. |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 388
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 3:07 pm: |
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Dear Robert:
I never not acknowledged the Nazis. I believe my post of the freedom party started out with the fact that alot of Nasiz went into the Freedom Party in 1956. It was officially a part of the Austrian Government for less then two years ending in 2000. By the way they weren't pics from the sound of music tour but I can send you some.
Yes Robert I am Austrian and I love my country. Do I acknowledge it's history..yes. I am 38 years old and my parents were 3 when the war ended so I am actually two generations removed. My country makes a point of educating our children of the past so it will not be repeated. That is why a right winged wacko like Haider cannot become President in Austria (a country the size of New Jersey).
So Robert are you American? Care to go back two generations and assume all the guilt of what was done wrong? |
Jgberkeley
Citizen
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 4572
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 5:02 pm: |
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Bajou,
Cameras on ATM's.
15 Years ago I worked with Dibold, Citi Bank, and NCR ATM's.
All of them have had cameras in them since day one.
The range of the camera is limited to view just the area in front and within provided lighting. The intent has been to have a record of those using or playing with the machine.
Yes, I have seen very funny video of robbers trying to break into ATM's, most of whom were arrested. This includes the one in Georgia where an ATM camera captured the license plate of the Pickup truck used to bash the ATM out of the wall.
That guy found out that an ATM is a safe, and he could not lift or drag it away before the cops busted him.
Later,
George |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6178
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 5:17 pm: |
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My sister was mugged outside the range of the ATM camera. I consider Cryan's as local. |
gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 354
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 5:31 pm: |
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Local in that instance isn't Maplewood.
Still, the Maplewood TC has approved the installation of two surveillance cameras in town. That leaves a lot of town outside the range of the cameras. Just make sure not to veer outside those small areas covered by the cameras else the bogeyman may getcha! |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11561
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 5:44 pm: |
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While not my intent to trash Austria or Austrians it should be noted that Austria avoided the intensive de-Nazification Germany underwent by portraying itself as a victicm of the Nazis, even though many Austrians served the Nazi cause and were members of the party.
The most notable was Kurt Waldheim, a UN Secretary General who served in a unit that committed attrocities in Yugoslavia. After leaving the UN, he was elected President of Austria. Mr. Waldheim claims he had not knowledge of the attrocities committed in the unit of which he was an officer.
Still, it is unfair to tar people like Bajou with this history. As she points out she wasn't around for the war, nor really were her parents. |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 390
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 6:12 pm: |
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Dear Bob K.:
As a matter of fact a very large part of Austria was occupied by the Russians who made a big point of going after the Nazis to make sure there was no uprising at a later stage.
Do not missunderstand this next sentence but it is what it is:
There is no such thing as an Austrian Person over the age of 80 (twenty at the end of the war) who wasn't a Nazi. Simply because you either joined or you got killed. Becoming a member of the Nazi Party or a member of the military was not optional. You opposed you died. So basically every Austrian over the age of 80 (which means you were twenty at the end of the war) was a Nazi.
As a matter of fact I would have have been killed. I have epilepsy and that was considered and undesirable genetic defect. Not only would I have been killed but my three sisters would have been sterilized. Insanity is Insanity... no explanation, no excuse..just tragedy.
I went to Mauthausen, and I saw what I saw, I felt what I felt and trust me there is nothing any of you can tell me about the horrors of the camps. Unless you are a survivor.
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Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2056
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 6:22 pm: |
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Case, nice one there. Trying to stir up the pot I see.
1) That was a joke and doesn't AT ALL imply that Bajou is a NAZI. Sorry.
2) Once again, I'm not sure what to add beyond what I already typed and you quoted. I asked if Austria was a country that supported spying on ones neighbors. Bajou didn't answer the question and called me "ignorant", so I did a google search for "spy on ones neighbors" and I came up with lots of information about Germany and Nazis. As I stated, in my post Austria and Germany have a history. I only posted about my google search to hopefully prove I wasn't in fact ignorant. I'm sorry but ONCE AGAIN, this is not calling Bajou a Nazi but rather trying to find out if my statement about Austria was "ignorant" or not.
But again, I take my hat off to you, for trying to stir up some trouble. |
Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1609
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 6:27 pm: |
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Oh, it was a joke? That should have been obvious from the phrasing - my bad.
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Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2057
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 7:46 pm: |
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No not from the phrasing, but from the voice inflection. |
Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 3954
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 8:26 pm: |
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http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3365&post=509150#POST5091 50 |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 394
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 1:39 pm: |
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Dear Alley and Robert Livingston - Have a good weekend. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2062
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 3:47 pm: |
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You too, Bajou. |
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