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John Caffrey
Citizen
Username: Jerseyjack
Post Number: 263
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:01 am: | 
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"Better Living Through Chemistry." |
Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 527
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:07 am: |
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It's sad in a way, I mean, what an achievement.....but I said to Mr. SOP last night that i'm sure the babe didn't take drugs, and really how much of what Bonds has done was without "assistance"..
I'm not a natural athlete and so I have nothing but awe and admiration for those who are, and I would much rather cheer for a natural athlete taking second place than an "enhanced" one taking anything....
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:50 am: |
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As the Babe's daughter said, "...he did it all on hot dogs and beer". Barry Bonds is a disgrace and shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Ruth, Aaron or any of the other true greats who built their legacies without "enhancements".
IMO, Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player ever, bar none. But if any other player thinks they can make a case, let him start where the Babe did- by earning 91 pitching wins and several World Series pitching records. He is the only Hall-of-Famer listed as both a player and a pitcher. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 525
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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Illegal Steroids 1
Beer 0
jd |
Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 531
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 2:47 pm: |
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The cost of illegal steroids - $1000's
The loss of a onetime great reputation - $Millions...
The possession of natural talents, and legend making stories - priceless
The Babe will always rule |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15087
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:59 am: |
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Shouldn't a Yankee fan know that The Babe had 94 lifetime wins?
Not 91. |
Scully
Citizen
Username: Scully
Post Number: 556
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 6:11 am: |
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Instead of a flat number shouldn't they figure the number of home runs per the number of at bats? Two players might have the same number of home runs but if one had twice as many at bats as the other...
But back to Bonds. Pond scum. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 1:05 pm: |
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I for one am happy for him. It is quite an accomplishment. There are many players on steroids, but only one player broke Ruth's total. Hard work and dedication have paid off. May is health endure to overcome the next record. |
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3398
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 1:26 pm: |
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Mayor may have tongue firmly in cheek, but also has an interesting point. Lots of other players (beyond just McGwire, Sosa, Canseco, and Caminiti) took steroids, but were not able to hit 715 homers or have extended careers with gaudy stats. Barry did better with chemistry than anyone else did. So, on one hand, his accomplishment is pretty amazing.
Steroids on their own did not make Barry's bat faster, his reflexes better, his eyesight sharper, or his contact with the ball more square and in the zone. They probably did add some distance to some of what otherwise would be flyouts, but he hit so many so far that I am not sure how much difference that made. But his natural reflexes, eyesight, and ability to get in front of pitches with a short, efficient swing and perfect contact cannot be overlooked.
No, what steroids really contributed was his ability to recover from muscle fatigue faster, and to recover from nagging injuries quicker. They allowed him to stay in peak condition longer than he may otherwise, both in a season and for his career. In other words, steroids likely extended the power portion of his career, allowed him to cheat bodily entropy--and since his latest feats are based on excellence over time and longevity, I think this makes his passing the Babe completely invalid regardless of the fact that Barry is still an amazing athlete who did what no one else did (except for Hank) even with the aid of chemicals.
Quite likely, without steroids, we are looking at a guy with 500 or so homers who has been retired for 4-5 years now due to nagging injuries that slowed him down. Certainly not a bad career, perhaps even a Hall of Fame career, but nowhere near where he is today in terms of stats. |
Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 461
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
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SOp: If you are not a "natural athlete" what kind of chemicals are you on?
ES&L: I actually think that all of the guys you listed above accomplished some amazing things - maybe not totally Bondsesque but pretty damn close.
Sosa - in 4 consecutive years he hit 50+ homers. In three of those years he hit 63+. To end that streak he slowed down with 49 homers in '02. In 1998 he won the MVP.
Canseco - incredibly hit 42 homers and stole 40 bases in 1988. Won the MVP. He hit 462 homers over his career. His identical twin brother Ozzie, who played 20 pounds lighter than Jose, did not hit a home run during his stint in the majors.
Caminiti - over 14 seasons he averaged 14.2 homers and 61 RBIs. In 1996 he hit 40 homers and drove in 130 runs, and took home the MVP.
McGwire - from 1996-99 his statistics were: 52/113, 58/123, 70/147 and 65/147. Unheard of production.
Other fine young role models with great accomplishments:
Palmeiro - 569/1835 career. Averaged 15.6 homers a game over his first five full years in the majors. Then went on to hit 38+ homers from 1995-2003.
Juan Gonzalez - 2-time MVP winner. 434 career homers. Nowhere to be found.
Giambi - Averaged 25 homers over his first four full seasons. Then went on to average over 41 homers over the next four. MVP in 2000. I love how he has been listed in encyclopedias as 6'2" 200 lbs. In his heyday you can add 30 lbs. of muscle onto that number.
Ivan Rodriguez - he's actually my favorite out of all of the above. The man actually looks half his playing size of the 90's. He probably lost somewhere around 25-30 lbs of muscle over the past year. 1999 he hit 20 more homers than his career average of 15, stole 25 bases (career average 5.6) and won the MVP.
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Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3399
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 3:13 pm: |
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Josh, I agree with you on your choice of pumped up pimps. And I am certain that there are lots of others who also did the juice but never put up the numbers these guys did (I believe Ozzie C. also admitted to juicing up). That is what is so strange about this--it is likely that the steroids made pretty good guys better, but did not guarantee good performance in their own right. I am sure that with their natural talents all of the above would have been above-average players--just not sure how long they would have performed at that level in the absence of steroids.
Perhaps Baseball should declare an amnesty and allow everyone to admit to doing steroids, then sequester those records to a special X-Men Mutant wing of the Hall of Fame. |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 456
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 3:22 pm: |
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If you take a fair look at it, Bond's 73 is no more aberrational than Maris's 61. If you throw out the 73 and look at the rest of it, he's been a mid-40's HR/YR guy for most of his career when he gets 500 abs. |
Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 462
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 3:28 pm: |
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1987
1992
Recent |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 457
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 3:30 pm: |
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I'm sure this has been pointed out, but Aaron was the original accumulator @ 23 years, 3298 games and 12,364 abs. This is more than 3,000 abs more than Bonds heading into the season and almost 4,000 more than Ruth. Aaron was pitched to. He was great but not terrifying...not game altering. He only averaged 60 walks per season. I wouldn't mourn Bonds breaking Aaron's record. It's just a number and there are any number of ways to attain it. |
Arnomation
Citizen
Username: Arnomation
Post Number: 540
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 5:29 pm: |
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he's been a mid-40's HR/YR guy for most of his career
Yeah, but his ability to hit 45 hr's at 40 yrs old when Aaron(20), Ruth(6),and Mays(18) at that age were only able to muster 45 HRs combined says something about performance enhancement and how it's a definite advantage that not everyone else has.
Todays players also have personal trainers and are required to take better care of themselves so that probably has helped his longevity and ability to perform as he ages but I still don't consider his numbers reliable. |
Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 463
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 6:09 pm: |
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"he's been a mid-40's HR/YR guy for most of his career when he gets 500 abs"
From 1986-99 Barry Bonds averaged a shade less than 32 homers per year. He had seven seasons during his career in which he had 500+ ABs yet did not reach 40 home runs. Barry Bonds reached the 45+ home run tier only once prior to 2000 and that was in 1993 (eight years into his career and eight years prior to hitting his record breaking 73* in 2001. Disregarding 2005, due to only 42 ABs, Barry Bonds hit the 45+ tier five straight times (his seasons 15-19.
Barry Bonds started his home run/statistic tear in 2000 at the age of 37. Over the next five years (age 37-41) he averaged 51.6 HRs per year. Henry Aaron, the home run champ, know for his durablity and longevity, averaged 30.6 HRs per year from 37-41 years of age - more than 20 HRs less per year than Barry Bonds.
It will be a sad in sports when this guy, along with all of the other steroid users, are voted into the HOF. } |
Arnomation
Citizen
Username: Arnomation
Post Number: 541
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 6:14 pm: |
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Canseco - incredibly hit 42 homers and stole 40 bases in 1988
Apparently, Bobby Bonds was actually the first 40/40 man. In 1973 he stole 43 bases and hit 39 HRs but he hit a few HRs in a few games that were called because of rain. So, they were never officially in the books. He actually insists that he had five homers rained out that year, including two in a game against Atlanta. He might even hold the record for lead off HRs
He also had 30 steals and 30 homers at least 5 times and only 2 players have stolen 400 bases and hit 300 HR and both are named Bonds.
If he weren't playing next to Willie Mays people might have taken more notice of him. |
Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 464
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 7:23 pm: |
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"He might even hold the record for lead off HRs"
Actually I believe Alfonso Soriano bested Bobby's single season leadoff HR record when he was with the Yankees. And yes, Bobby Bonds was a tremendous player. It is just sad that his son has taken the route I am sure he would never have thought to take himself. |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 458
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 2:17 pm: |
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"Barry Bonds started his home run/statistic tear in 2000 at the age of 37. Over the next five years (age 37-41) he averaged 51.6 HRs per year. Henry Aaron, the home run champ, know for his durablity and longevity, averaged 30.6 HRs per year from 37-41 years of age - more than 20 HRs less per year than Barry Bonds"
Josh: You and I could play this game with the stats all day long. I will not apologize for Bonds. However, for the sake of argument, if yout throw out the aberrational year of 73 hrs and last year, then Bonds has averaged 42.25 hrs per year every year since agre 31. Steroids aside, is there any doubt in you mind that Bonds is a better conditioned athlete that Ruth or Aaron? Did either one of them ever even walk into a weight room? Yet, Aaron hit 40 hrs at age 39 and just hung around with the Brewers for a few more years after that (should have retired). |
Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 466
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 6:00 pm: |
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Joe: Bonds is a HOFer w/o steroids. No doubt. One of the best, if not the best, hitters of this generation. But he wanted to be the best of all time and decided to take it to the next level through the use of steroids.
Bonds is a tremendously gifted and conditioned athlete (Aaron probably never saw a weight room during his career). But the steroids turned his body into a machine, a machine that allowed him to reach plateaus unheard of before - all during most players' retirement years.
And I really can't get past the 73 HRs - because I believe that number stands for everything that is wrong with Barry Bonds - an egotistical maniac who completely disrespected the game and the kids that watch it.
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 9:37 pm: |
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Don't blame Bonds, blame baseball. Whether you blame the union or the owners doesn't matter. The drug testing policy was a joke and still is (no HGH testing). While I am no fan of Bonds, he played the system. To that I say shame on the system not on Bonds. Many, many players were taking the same untested by baseball drugs that Bonds was taking. We'll never know. How many of Clemens wins or K's had a little HGH behind them? And what about the little guys who went from 5 homers a year to 20 - 25. Guys like Marcus Giles, Javy Lopez, Tejada, Sheffield. Was Zito taking juice because he sure has fallen hard and fast.
Bottom line, baseball reaped what they sowed. Until baseball gets a real drug testing policy they will continue to be the pro wrestling of the big 3 sports. Enjoy baseball for what it is, basically a joke where the players are still taking HGH and the economics of the entire system is so screwed up that the NFL has flown by them like they were standing still.
And for you Babe fans. Relax. No one will forget the Babe just like no one will forget Hank. But please, as big a jerk as Bonds is he simply played with the hand he was dealt. I actually applaud him because he has finally revealed baseball as a joke and has the entire country laughing at the sport. Eventually, they will get a real commissioner who will return the sport to legitimacy. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2735
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 10:20 pm: |
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Southerner: I didn't know you were interested in something other than politics. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 11:33 pm: |
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Sbenois- Barry's win total is much easier to remember:
Z - E - R - O
But numbers alone could never define The Bambino's greatness; Barry Bonds would have to stand on his mother's shoulders to kiss Babe's arse.
...or he could just stand on your shoulders... |
Arnomation
Citizen
Username: Arnomation
Post Number: 544
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 12:34 am: |
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The drug testing policy was a joke
Well, that's not exactly fair because just because they're not good at catching people doesn't make it ok to do it. The odds are that I won't get pulled over for DWI but I still don't drive drunk. The fact that he used performance enhancing drugs but baseball was too lax in their enforcement doesn't really make him less liable.
I do agree that Bonds is a better conditioned athlete and having the genes of Bobby Bonds is a definite advantage that most steroid users don't have |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 9:58 am: |
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Barry Bonds is what dogshit wipes off ITS shoes... |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 459
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 4:18 pm: |
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This is an example of how Bonds hurts himself with his abrasive personality (some might say no personality). When we look back on it, we'll realize that steroid use peaked in 2000 and 2001. Where is the hue and cry about Sean Green? He hit 49 in 2001 and never hit 30 again. What about Luis Gonzalez? He hit 57 in 2001 and the only time he ever hit as much as 30 was the year before in 2000.
Look at the prevalence of hrs during that period. In 2000, 16 hit more than 40! In 2001, 4 were over 50 and 2 over 60! 1998-13 over 40, 4 over 50 and 2 over 60.
Since 2001- there have never been more than 10 over 40 and only 3 guys have hit 50 over those four years(surprise-Bonds isn't one of them).
How much do we hate this guy and is it really justified?
Either everybody was juicing or the ball was wound too tight or maybe a combination of these and poor pitching. No doubt something sport-wide was going on between 1998 and 2001.
If Bonds had never hit the 73, and hit 53 instead, would we still feel the same way? He'd have 695 now and he'd still break Ruth's record (maybe not Hanks). I'm not a Bonds aplogist, but there is something unfair about making him the poster boy for a decade of shattered illusions. |
Arnomation
Citizen
Username: Arnomation
Post Number: 548
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 4:23 pm: |
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he'd still break Ruth's record
I find it very interesting that people keep saying that. Ruth doesn't have any home run records. He hasn't had a hr record for thirty years. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1613
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 10:55 pm: |
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He can break every record there is- he's still a scum-lapping shitbag! |
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