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Archive through July 2, 2006Rastrosac40 7-2-06  4:54 pm
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ess
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Username: Ess

Post Number: 2526
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 5:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sac, yep, correct -- two spaces as opposed to two "carriage returns".

Agreed on the typo issue. For example, my "p" key sticks, so if I don't check as I go, I make "tyograhical" errors.
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Tom Reingold
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Post Number: 14862
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Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 6:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's true that book editors and the like say two spaces after a sentence are no longer necessary. Unfortunately, most software puts two spaces after a period everywhere, including the first period in "Mr. Smith went to the movies."
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Tom Reingold
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Post Number: 14863
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Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 6:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the "Introduce yourself" thread, Joan points out that MOLers are well advised to watch their grammar and spelling, because they count here. She's right, and it reminds me that MOLers are really pretty good, compared with most other online fora. So that's something to be grateful for.



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ess
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Post Number: 2529
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Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 9:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Or, if you want to split hairs, something for which to feel grateful.

And I am.
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Soparents
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Post Number: 1759
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Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 9:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Or, something for which we are grateful....




And I is.....

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ess
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Post Number: 2533
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Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 9:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Soparents -
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Tom Reingold
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Post Number: 14865
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Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are you folks claiming that a preposition is something you would never end a sentence with?
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Soparents
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Post Number: 1774
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Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A proposition should always end a sentence in my book..

Such as, i'm going for a drink, fancy coming??

oh, you said preposition... sorry..

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tom
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Post Number: 5216
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Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 11:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

Double spacing was used from the typewriter days when text was fixed spaced. Since the full stop (period) took the same space as a capital M it wasn't necessarily clear as to the end of a line. So too with a comma etc. Obviously now that typewriters are in the museum and most of us have left the world of DOS wordprocessors, ie all text is now proportionally spaced, then putting a double space after a full stop is no longer relevant.


This person puts it pretty well.

And in my experience, if you just make a decision to go with The Chicago Manual of Style for questions such as this, life gets a lot simpler.
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ess
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Username: Ess

Post Number: 2536
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Posted on Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the link, Tom. I am going to have to break the habit of adding the second space at the end of a sentence. This is good practice for me right now. It feels weird, however.
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mjh
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Post Number: 639
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 6:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't stand to hear "anyways"...........especially from Mayor Bloomberg. He should know better.

Anyways, can "disrespect" really be used as a verb? "He disrespected me!" Ugh.

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ess
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Post Number: 2541
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 8:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Disrespect" as a verb seems to have come into vogue with The Sopranos.

On a similar note, while I am not sure whether or not it is grammatically correct, the use of the word "impact" as a verb irks me. I tend to use it as a noun, as in, "has an impact on.....". Anyways, maybe that's just me.
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Calliope
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Post Number: 514
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 8:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ess! Good grief---you and I should be on the same squad of the Grammar Police!
Disrespect, and the diminutive,"diss" are not real verbs.They are colloquialisms.
Teeth and bowels become "impacted"; entire people do not.

Calli


I am sharpening my blue pencil right now!
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Joanne G
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Post Number: 289
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 9:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK now I'm chiming in on the 'em' issue - according to the Oxford rules. Yes, I know they're different to the US rules, but they're the rules I apprenticed with, and they were invented before you guys were setting type

The em space is commonly thought to be derived from the space needed for the M character in typewriting but is an actual, formulaic measure (that I can't currently remember - sorry)from hot-metal typesetting in the days before tyupewriters. An en space is half that. Full stops (periods) could be any size you needed. These spaces help us work out which size dashes to use when trying to give emphasis in our typed work: advertisers commonly prefer us to use en-dashes instead of em-dashes because em-dashes are set solid (no spaces around them so they look ugly).

At the same time as this 'modern' look was becoming more common (the time of the electric typewriter and the phototypesetting), people began to drop the use of the double-character space after a full stop (period) for time and motion/workplace health reasons.

You see, the pressure for creating that extra space all goes on your dominant thumb if you are a speed typist, and that creates an extra way in which you can develop Repetitive Strain Injury (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome) which costs industry millions of dollars in insurance claims. PLUS Time and motion studies indicated that no-one outside the typing pool even realised that you used a double-character space anyway so when desktop computers arrived and everyone was typing their own stuff (and no-one knew how to proofread anymore), it was wasted space that didn't mean anything and could be standardised for efficiency.

The single-character space after a sentence was sold to keyboarding skills teachers as a modern way to increase speed, modernise layout and decrease the chance of workplace injury. It has remained so ever since, and you can tell that people have no idea about the real heritage of the em, en or double-character spaces because they think the size of letters on a computer's monitor is measured in 'fonts', not points and they pronounce leading (which comes from the metal) 'leeding'.
Joanne, in frustration but not in anger...
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Tom Reingold
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 9:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also dislike "impact" as a verb, since we really mean "affect."

I admit that "disrespect" as a verb was jarring to me at first, but really, what's wrong with it? It's the antonym of respect, which is a verb. I say let it be. We needed it all along. It sounds wrong only because it's new.
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Joanne G
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Post Number: 291
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 9:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Same argument could be used for 'impact' as a verb, too. It's always been an allowable useage, just not a common one and one that was more often used in the past tense in academic tomes.

I find the geographical variations in language use fascinating - one reason I keep on reading MOL.

My sister and I often have these discussions on language use. I've decided she represents the old school inflexible approach and that I have a younger nimbler brain that embraces change and creativity!!
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Soparents
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 9:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For the most part, my Mother is a calm and dignified lady, UNTIL she hears someone say "For Free"... then she is in orbit checking out the planets for cracks...

"BUY ONE, GET ONE FOR FREE!"
"HE GAVE IT TO ME FOR FREE!"

She is very hot on correct spelling, pronounciation etc, and this one thing drives her to distraction!!!
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Joanne G
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Post Number: 292
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 9:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

not sure I get that...? I tried saying out loud, but with all the grunts from the tennis coming from the TV maybe I'm missing something?
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Soparents
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Post Number: 1791
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 10:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Buy one, get one free, or he gave it to me free, or buy one get one free of charge, or he gave it to me without asking for money, but you DON'T say, "For Free..."

Who's the better grunter?
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Dave
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Post Number: 10039
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 10:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also if something is given or a gift, saying it's free is redundant.
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ess
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Username: Ess

Post Number: 2542
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was an editor of my college newspaper, and I have an entire arsenal of blue pens at the ready for conversations such as this! (Calli - I have extras if you need them. No sharpening required. )

How about this one:

Trying to find a verb form of "incentive". I have heard "incent", "incentivate", and "incentivize". The truth is, there is no verb form. Drives me batty. Though it sounds a bit clunky, I always say something like "provide an incentive..." rather than try to make it a verb.
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sac
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Post Number: 3592
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Similar to the issue of the verb form for incentive (or lack thereof), I suppose that "prioritize" has now been added to the lexicon, but I think that is a fairly recent deelopment. I know that when I first heard it in a work environment, it gave me that same "nails on the blackboard feeling". I always thought that the correct way to convey that meaning was "set priorities".
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Joanne G
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Post Number: 293
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 10:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh,Ess, what memories you have revived of trying to find the perfect blue pen!!! the right shade, where the light can't get through enough so that you can actually read what you have marked up, yet still gets through enough so that the marks won't reproduce on your final print! And the joys of cutting/correcting on the stone! (And remember the hierachy of other colours for corrections - red for the typesetter, green for the author???)

Do you need a verb for incentive? Not all adverbs or nouns have corresponding modern verbs yet have perfectly acceptable phraseology that isn't clunky or unclear. If it weren't so late and if I hadn't loaded up on codeine for migraine I might think of a few examples for you but right now, over here, it's almost 1 am. If something occurs to me I'll let you know!

Calli, did I say that I love your pet goat???
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Joanne G
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Post Number: 294
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sac/ess: there's also the new-ism 'diarise' - whatever happened to simply noting in your diary???

Dave/SOP: thanks for making it clearer - I couldn't see what was wrong with the celaned up version, and sleepyhead me couldn't 'hear' the incorrectness of the incorrect version.
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ess
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Username: Ess

Post Number: 2544
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joanne, we didn't have typesetters, but we did have a plethora of those perfect blue markers. Late at night, when only the editors remained, we would write all sorts of "creative" graffiti all over the paper we had worked on so feverishly. The paper the next day, of course, showed none of this. (Btw, does codeine help that migraine??????)

But I digress.

It seems as though there is a trend toward making nouns into verbs. "Lunch" is a good example. I would agree with "set priorities", but "prioritize" evidently came into acceptable use some time during the 1960s.
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Joanne G
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Post Number: 296
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did you ever use the red version of that non-repro blue Letraset pen on the pics??? Such fun! Had to be red on the pics because the metals used to develop the photos would bend the light differently so the blue pens actually came through!! And the variety of fixatives too - milliners' solution, rubber cements, hot waxes...

Yep, codeine eventually works - if I take enough, early enough. I also take topamax a couple of times a day to make my blood more acidic; that will apparently break through the chronic migraine cycle I'm going through as part of the menopause thing my body has decided to try (I'm in denial, for all the good it's doing me).

If I knew where I kept all those editing books and tools, I'd drag them out and look up those pesky verb forms for you. But it's too cold (less than zero degrees C now) and too late; I've got to go to work in 5 hours (early start). Wait! 'Inspire'! Isn't that part of the 'incentive' process????
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ess
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Post Number: 2545
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only times I recall using pens on photos would be when the pens were used on the actual subjects, and then a photo was taken.

I'll go with "inspire". For example, you would have to be really inspired to get out of the house in sub-freezing temperatures, with a migraine, no less, and go to work.
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Joanne G
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Post Number: 297
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And on that note, I'll go to bed!!!!! Hopefully when I awake I will be sans migraine, can manage to remove the cover from my car despite the ice over it, and navigate the thick fog to my 'gourmet cup of coffee' which is my reward for getting to the office extra-early once a week. You could say that cup of coffee or hot chocolate is my incentive for arriving safely

(Seriously, I think we once just went with 'motivate' before all the business gurus decided that motivation had to come from within).

'Night all! Oh, and someone go to Please Help and answer the question on useage of caps...
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Soparents
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Post Number: 1800
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We did!!

Enjoy the coffee - I think i'll have one now to keep you company!

SOP

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Joanne G
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Post Number: 299
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 5:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Having awoken and seeing the kind of day it is, I'm def going for a soy mocha when I arrive (yep, I slept in but hey - I'm the one who choses to get in early. I'll still be there 90 mins before the others so can get lots done before the phones ring off the hook). Thanks for helping on the caps question - it so fitted with what we're discussing here!!

Hey - happy history day everyone!!

BTW, does anyone have a good site from which I could practice some modern Greek grammar and pronunciation? The only ones I've come up with are dictionary sites. Text can be roman-style lettering instead of Greek. A similar one for Hebrew would be good too... Thanks in advance!
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Joanne G
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Post Number: 300
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 5:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

make that 'chooses'
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Shanabana
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Impact as a verb was started by the millitary--I agree, it's yucky. However, maybe it should be used for things like hurricanes, tornados, and bombs.

If had I submitted my dissertatin with single spaces after the periods, then I would have had to do it all over again. That was in 2003. Maybe things have changed since then. I double space after my periods on MOL. Can't y'all tell?

When I lived in Oregon, my guy friends always said: "Alls I know is..." Drove me nuts!

And what's up with people always saying "there's three..." or "there's ten..."?
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Jersey_Boy
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Post Number: 1269
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Posted on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 11:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love "alls I know is." Dialectical speech is different. It can be quaint. It's only a problem if you don't know better, and you write it in your resume.

"Alls I know is, I really want this job."

J.B.
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notehead
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Post Number: 3551
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Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 11:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding the correct usage of "its" and "it's," some of you might be interested to learn that at least ten years ago, William Safire, in his column in the New York Times Magazine, suggested that we do away with the version with the apostrophe entirely, even if you are shortening "it is." And if he says that its okay, then nobody can say its wrong, because Safire is in charge of that stuff.

Compliment and complement... work it out, folks. Same for insure and ensure.

And isn't it time we gave someone a firearm to enforce the correct usage of quotation marks, for cryin' out loud?!! (I'm just not sure there are enough bullets in the world.)

Of course, context is the key to separating idiom from idiocy.

Oh, and I'd like to take this opportunity to opine that, by public demand, "email" has become perfectly acceptable and should not have to be "e-mail" to be technically correct.
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Tom Reingold
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For that matter, I feel strongly that we should not capitalize the word "internet."
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ess
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Post Number: 2626
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not only should we hand out firearms to enforce correct usage of quotation marks, but also to enforce correctly calling them "quotation marks", rather than "quotes".

A quote is contained within quotation marks.

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Dave
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"And always put punctuation within the quotation marks," he said while loading his revolver.
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Rastro
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that in the US, punctuation is supposed to be to the left of the quotation mark, whereas in the rest of the world they put it where it makes sense.

I have yet to understand the rules of commas. I always, put, too, many, into, sentences.

As for Internet, when talking about an internetwork, I agree it should not be capitalized. When talking about THE Internet, it is my opinion that it should be. But you know what they say about opinions ;-)

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LilLB
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom - I agree about not capitalizing "internet," but the style books still keep it capped - I can't wait for that to change.

According to the Chicago Manual of Style, commas and periods precede closing quotation marks. Colons, semicolons, question marks and exclamation points follow the closing quotation mark.
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Rastro
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Post Number: 3543
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LilLB, does that include when the quote itself is a question?
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LilLB
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, in fact, the exception to that rule (sorry - I got lazy and didn't put that one in), is if the exclamation point or question mark is part of the quote.

So, if you were quoting the line from the Book of Songs, "How right they are to adore you!" You would precede the closing quotes with ! because it's part of the quote.
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Dave
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Post Number: 10073
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3613594.stm



Quote:

Forgive me for saying, but those who choose "internet" over "Internet" are as wrong as those who would visit london, meet the queen or go for a boat trip down the river thames.

The fact is that the Internet is the name of a specific collection of networks, while internet is a generic term for two or more connected networks.

The two are as distinct as planet Earth and the earth around your begonias, and they should be distinguished in print.

This is not just pedantry, although I am happy to admit to wanting to be careful in my use of language.

It is also about history, about understanding where one of the key tools of our modern life came from and appreciating its true nature.

Because while the Internet is certainly an internet, it is not just any old internet: it is the one that was created in January 1983 when the research network Arpanet and the Computer Science Network (CSNET) were linked together and everyone started using the TCP/IP protocol that we still have today.

The difference between the Internet and any other internet is therefore quite fundamental and, I would argue, worth recognising.

It may be unfortunate that Vint Cerf and the other network pioneers chose to name their network after its most distinguishing technical characteristic rather than give it a proper name, but that does not allow us to disregard the distinction.

Special status

There are words that can be used in both ways without a capital - atmosphere, for example, is used both in a generic (some planets have atmospheres) and specific (the atmosphere exerts a pressure) sense without capitalisation.

But we built the Internet, we did not just notice it around us, and it was named with a capital letter by the people who created it.

As a journalist I know that if I talk about a Biro then I had better be referring to one of the pens made by the Biro company, and if I mention someone sitting in a Portakabin then it had better be one of Portakabin's products and not just any old temporary office.

But I can hoover my floor with any brand of vacuum cleaner, because the term has lost its significance and no longer refers only to a cleaner made by Hoover.

It is the same with the Internet. If we let it lose its special status then we lose a connection with our online history, one that I want to retain.

Wired News and the BBC may decide otherwise, but some of us will not forget and will not give up the fight - whatever the sub-editors do to our copy after it has been emailed over.


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LilLB
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet! internet!

HA! HA! HA! Take THAT Bill Thompson.....
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Rastro
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Post Number: 3544
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 4:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh yeah?

"Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"! "Internet"!

Phooey! "?"
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Joanne G
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Username: Joanne

Post Number: 332
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 4:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was always taught that e-mail was hyphenated because Email is a registered trademarked company name... German, perhaps? Anyway, a company name, and trademarked. So: two reasons not to bandy it around in common use especially in a sense totally different to its original meaning.

The joys and hidden depths of written copy...
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LilLB
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Username: Lillb

Post Number: 1996
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rastro - I'm impressed with your application of the ! outside of the ". Very nice.

Joanne - that's wild - I never heard that. I would think it's e-mail for the same reason "e-discovery," "e-commerce," "e-form," are written that way.
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Joanne G
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Username: Joanne

Post Number: 334
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 11:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yep - e-mail is right but Email is a company name and therefore has conditions on its use. I think the right name is/was Deutsche Email Fabrik or something similar...made electrical appliances (I'm talking 70s/80s). In the 'old' days of copy editing we weren't able to use registered names, brand names, trademarks etc in common writing without written and express permission for each and every use so the Permissions Departments of publishing houses were huge and a great way to get a foot in the editing door.

(I'm writing from work and shouldn't be...)
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TomD
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Username: Tomd

Post Number: 554
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 9:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of the great things about English is the way it evolves. E-mail becomes e-mail and eventually email. Base ball becomes base-ball and then baseball. It doesn't always happen, we still write x-ray and not xray, but that's probably just because "xray" looks funny.

What's interesting is the corporate brands that become accepted English words, known as proprietary eponyms. There are legal ramifications where a company loses some of its rights if they allow their brand to become a generic term(such as xerox, kleenex, q-tip, frisbee as opposed to photocopy, tissue, cotton swab or flying disc).

Google is fast becoming a generic term.

In the spirit of evolving language, I'm all for "the internet" and email.

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