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Pippi
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Username: Pippi
Post Number: 2736
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:55 pm: | 
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Teen battles state over cancer treatment
By Harriet Ryan
Court TV
(Court TV) -- In Virginia, age 16 is old enough to drive a car, work a 40-hour week, stand trial in adult court, and marry.
Whether 16 is old enough to reject traditional cancer treatment is at the heart of a trial slated to begin next week on the Eastern Shore town of Accomac.
Starchild Abraham Cherrix, a 16-year-old suffering from Hodgkin's disease, has refused chemotherapy and radiation treatments ordered by his oncologist in favor of an herbal remedy prescribed by a Mexican clinic.
If Abraham, as he is known, were two years older, the decision would be his alone and no court could challenge his choice, no matter how medically unorthodox. But because he is a minor, social services authorities have intervened.
In the proceeding that begins in Accomack County Circuit Court on August 16, government lawyers will accuse his parents, who support Abraham's herbal treatment, of medical neglect for not ensuring their son receives chemotherapy and radiation. If they are successful, the judge is likely to give partial custody to the state and order Abraham into a hospital for treatment.
Although the right of states to compel medical treatment for gravely ill children over their parents' wishes is well established, Abraham's case is noteworthy because he has articulated strongly his own reasons for refusing conventional treatment.
"I should have the right to tell someone what I want to do with this body," he told USA Today last month. "I studied. I did research. I came to this conclusion that the chemotherapy was not the route I wanted to take."
Other cases often turn on a parent's religious beliefs, but the Cherrixes say that while they are devout Christians, their decision is based on Abraham's own negative experience with a first round of chemotherapy and his evaluation, seconded by his parents, of alternative treatments based on that experience.
"When Abraham mentioned that he didn't want to take radiation and that he wanted to try alternative treatments, I tested him and questioned him to make sure that was what he really wanted to do," Jay Cherrix said. "I researched it myself and saw that there were other options."
State authorities acknowledge the case is not an easy one and said they are concerned only with the teenager's health.
"One of the most difficult decisions of the Child Protective Services program requires balancing the rights of the parents with the health of the child," Anthony Conyers Jr., State Social Service commissioner, said in a statement about Abraham's case.
The trial comes as Abraham's health continues to deteriorate.
Although his lawyer says the lanky teen has gained weight and energy with the daily doses of herbs, including licorice, he acknowledged that tumors in Abraham's neck and chest are growing, albeit "infinitesimally."
Abraham was diagnosed with cancer a year ago after a doctor evaluating his complaints of exhaustion discovered growths in his neck. He began chemotherapy at a hospital in Norfolk, a two-hour drive from the Cherrixes' home on the island of Chincoteague.
The treatments left Abraham, who stands 6-foot-1, nauseous and so weak that his father had to carry him from the car to his bed.
"I watched Abraham go from 156 pounds to 122 pounds. I watched all of his hair fall out. I saw him cringing from pain in his jaw so bad that he couldn't eat. The heels of his feet hurt so much he couldn't walk. He had blisters in his mouth," said Jay Cherrix, who refers to his eldest son as "my little boy."
The chemotherapy initially seemed to work. His tumors shrank, and according to the Cherrixes, Abraham was cancer-free by the end of 2005. By February, however, the cancer was back.
Abraham's oncologist ordered a second, more intense round of chemotherapy and radiation treatment. Abraham balked.
"I think it would kill me the second time," he told the Associated Press.
Instead, he began searching for alternative treatments and decided on a sugar-free diet and a regiment of herbal supplements known as the Hoxsey Method. The treatment is controversial.
It is banned in the United States by the FDA, and a review by the National Cancer Institute several years ago of 400 patients who claimed they were cured by the method could not substantiate a single account.
Abraham and his parents, however, maintain they know people who have been helped by the treatment and were convinced by visits to a clinic in Tijuana.
"They were so overwhelmed with the kindness and professionalism of the staff and with the success stories of people they met there who had been cancer-free for 20, 30, 40 years. They felt they had found their place, their niche," said Sharon Smith, the family spokeswoman.
The Cherrixes asked Abraham's oncologist in Virginia to continue monitoring their son during the herb treatment, but the physician refused and instead alerted the Accomack County Department of Social Services.
After interviewing the Cherrixes and the doctor, authorities proceeded with charges of medical neglect, which, according to the Virginia statute, is "the failure by the caretaker to obtain and or follow through with a complete regimen of medical, mental or dental care for a condition which if untreated could result in illness or developmental delays."
In July, Abraham, his parents, the oncologist and seven other witnesses testified in a closed hearing in family court. The issue before the juvenile judge was whether the Cherrixes had neglected their son.
The couple did not fit the standard picture of mistreatment or disinterest. Rose Cherrix homeschools the five children, while her husband operates a kayaking business. They were at Abraham's side throughout his chemotherapy.
On July 21, however, the judge ruled that the Hoxsey Method alone constituted neglect. He gave social services joint custody of Abraham and ordered him to report to the hospital to begin chemotherapy within four days.
His parents immediately exercised the right of parties in family court to have their cases heard anew in a higher court. A county circuit court judge, Glen Tyler, stayed the lower court's order of chemotherapy until he could hear evidence.
In a trial expected to last two days, Tyler will hear from the oncologist, social services workers, a woman who claims the Hoxsey Method cured her ovarian cancer, and of course, Abraham.
In a previous hearing, the teenager recalled the debilitating effects of chemotherapy and his decision to pursue the herbal treatment. The judge can consider his opinion, but also disregard it because he is a minor. Story continues Story continues Advertisment Parco
According to Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, judges asked to compel medical treatment of a minor normally are guided by the standards accepted by the medical establishment.
"Courts decide based on what mainstream medicine says are the appropriate treatments. They are not interested in Mexican licorice-stick treatments," he said.
Courts also consider the rate of success of a treatment and do not order experimental or risky treatments.
The Cherrixes' defense plans to contest the efficacy of chemotherapy in Abraham's case, saying it is no guarantee of restoring his health. Stepanovich said he will call an oncologist to testify that Abraham's resistance to the first course of chemotherapy indicates additional courses may not help him.
Survival rates of those diagnosed with Hodgkin's disease are in excess of 80 percent, but the rates drop for those whose cancer returns after a first round of chemotherapy.
According to studies compiled by the American Cancer Society, the five-year survival rate for those who undergo a second round of chemotherapy and a bone marrow transplant is between one-third and one-half, depending on the treatment facility.
"It would be different if he had a broken arm or a heart ailment that could be rectified by surgery. There's medical treatment that could fix that problem definitively. In this case, he's got cancer and there's no definite cure. Chemotherapy is a treatment. It's not a cure," Stepanovich said.
Caplan, the University of Pennsylvania bioethicist, said it seems likely the judge will order Abraham back to the hospital for chemotherapy and radiation, but said "the reality-check question" is whether a tall 16-year-old can be made to cooperate.
"Are they going to shackle him? There is a physical reality that has to be grappled with here," he said.
Jay Cherrix echoed that skepticism. He said that while his family would comply with the order of the court, he has trouble imagining a doctor violating his son's wishes.
"I personally don't think there is a Dr. Mengele in the United States who would pump this stuff into a 16-year-old who didn't want that. I personally don't think we've reached that point in our civilization," he said.
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Pippi
Supporter
Username: Pippi
Post Number: 2737
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:00 pm: |
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Does this change anyone's viewpoint? Hearing directly from the 16 year old and his family certainly gives me pause.
I am not sure they should be compelled to force traditional treatment on him if he doesn't want it. |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 2148
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:11 pm: |
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No, Pippi, it does not change my mind at all.
I have a child who was 15, 16, 17, who over almost 3 years was in the hospital 11 (more??) times.
There were many things about the treatment that my child despised -- and were nearly as hard on both of us as parents.
My job was NOT to do what she wanted or her mother or I wanted. My job as a parent was to learn from the MDs about all the options and to select what was most likely to help, and ultimately save her.
Unforunately there are few guarantees in medicine. But I would have been gravely wrong to select a treatment for her that had no clinical proof of being likely to help.
Cherrix is an idiot -- neither he nor his wife appear willing to make the hard decision to do what is most likely to save their son. Its their job (along with doctors, friends, counselors) to help their son see that!
Of course a 16 year old can't be "made" to cooperate -- that's what the love, care, and intervention of parents, family, friends, professionals is for!
Pete
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 5882
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:31 pm: |
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Nope. In this situation, it only reinforces my opinion he should be able to refuse treatment. Especially since
"In Virginia, age 16 is old enough to drive a car, work a 40-hour week, stand trial in adult court, and marry."
and 16 year olds have even been emancipated in some situations.
This wouldn't be in the news if it wasn't for some busybody reporting it to Social Services. I'm willing to bet if we were to call any of the major cancer hospitals in the area and asked if they ever had a 16 year old decide they no longer wanted treatment, they would say 'Yes.'
I hope Abraham and his family win in Court.
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Pippi
Supporter
Username: Pippi
Post Number: 2738
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:42 pm: |
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Pete - I am sorry for what you and your family went through.
Based on the statistics referenced in the article, I am still not convinced that the boy doesn't have the right to decide what his body shoud have to endure. If he were 18, would it make that much of a difference?
FWIW, I am playing devil's advocate here, I have no idea how I would feel if it were my child.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1865
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:56 pm: |
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The choice this boy has is between death and treatment. Period.
Quote:"Courts decide based on what mainstream medicine says are the appropriate treatments. They are not interested in Mexican licorice-stick treatments," he said.
and that is what any one would do. Pete is 100% right. There is not holistic, herbal, meditation, supernatural way to deal with cancer. We have only a few tools that are proven to help. The treatments are not easy but ultimately they are our only resort.
Quote:Although his lawyer says the lanky teen has gained weight and energy with the daily doses of herbs, including licorice, he acknowledged that tumors in Abraham's neck and chest are growing, albeit "infinitesimally."
they admit that this ridiculous 'treatment' doesnt work. The only recourse this family and this boy have is to listen to what the state of the art doctors are telling him. If the chemo treatment doesnt work he will die, but at least, at the very least it give him a chance to live. This other thing he is doing to himself only gives him the illusion that he will be ok. An illusion that when he wakes up to realize it was an illusion it will be too late to save himself. The case is very sad.
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peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 2150
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:57 pm: |
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Whether a 16 or even 18 year old has the right to vote, work, etc. does not, to me, indicate maturity or breadth of experience.
Its nearly impossible for me to believe a 16 year old is mature enough, even this young man who has gone through treatment. (and not to many 18 year olds, either, IMO!).
I don't think a 16 year old can make a judgement that several months, of possible harrowing treatments, is too high a price to pay for the possibility of a long life.
It is not his parent's job to go along with the wishes of a 16 year old, when his doctor clearly believes there is hope in another round of chemo.
Its the parents job to love and support their son through it.
Pete |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 3058
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:02 pm: |
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I still think the courts wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole if the parents claimed a religious reason. Mostly I agree with peteglider given the nature of the illness, and the prognosis, and the minor child angle. But then, I also don't think Christian Scientists should be able to subsitute prayer for insulin for their children -- but in many states they can. I do worry about the slippery slope and gov control, but this one seems so clear cut on the life v death that I think I'd save my perosn philosophizing for Soapbox-All Politics. |
Valley_girl
Citizen
Username: Valley_girl
Post Number: 133
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:36 pm: |
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A choice between death and treatment, period? So if he has treatment, he won't die, period? |
Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1899
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 11:20 am: |
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I think the chances of him dying without treatment are 100%, and the chances of him dying during/after the treatment are less than 100%.
How much less? How much better are his chances WITH treatment? I don't think that can be quantified. This kid is basically choosing to die rather than go through a painful treatment... and I don't care if he's 16, 26 or 40 years old - if his family can't convince him to keep fighting, then I say he should be allowed to go out in his own fashion.
I think it's a shame that the parents don't exercise their option to put him through the treatment regardless of his wishes (using the loophole that he's only 16)... but you know, life sucks sometimes.
PS - I'm not in favor of 'treatment at all costs', especially if you don't have a reasonable hope of long-term relief. If I hit my 60s or 70s and come up with some terrible disease that requires a brutally dificult treatment (with low probability of success), I'll probably refuse. HOWEVER... this is a 16 year old kid - he's too young to give up by going to some 'clinic' in Tijuana. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1873
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:02 pm: |
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Hodgkins disease is one of those cancers where chemo does many times prove to be a cure. Allowing him to deny himself treatment because he doesnt like chemo is tragic.
Valley_girl, Case interpretted my remarks correctly. Death or a chance to live.
I really wish he would reconsider. |
Sandi and Paul
Citizen
Username: Momsandi
Post Number: 116
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:51 pm: |
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But, the first round of chemo almost killed him. I would feel differently if he hadn't tried the chemo already and his experience hadn't been so horrible. I have yet to know of an individual who had a bad reaction to chemo and didn't die with a second set of treatments. Have any of you heard of such? The doctor now wants more intensive chemo, according to the article. That, to me, is certain death for this particular individual. People have different tolerances to chemotherapy. I have known some individuals who had very limited ill effects. However, a first round of therapy signals how that individual's body reacts to that kind of treatment. I hope that the boy gets to make the decision for himself. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 3060
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 8:43 am: |
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Sandi and Paul, not sure if your rhetorical question is general or specific. I will say that generalizing with respect to "cancer" is foolish as each kind, each individual's reaction, is different. My husband doesn't have Hodgkins, rather an inherited form of colon/gatro cancer tied to HNPCC. His chemo last Summer (Fulfox with Avastin) did nearly kill him. This Summer's rounds are a milder dose and are not killing him (though he doesn't feel any too great). So far, seem to be eradicating/holding it at bay. It's no picnic for anyone, of any age. Yes, it will change your life immeasurably, but you will be alive if physically somewhat incapacitated during it.
The "somewhat" varies. In my husband's case: intense sensitivity to cold (wear gloves when reaching into the fridge), nausea, loss of 1/3 body weight, some hair loss, mouth sores, fatigue (read sleep 12 hrs a day), depression, diarrhea, dizziness, loss of strength (can't lift more than 5 lb), tooth loss. But! Can make meals, wash dishes, dress, laugh, watch tv, use the computer, make boat models. Depends, then, on what you consider an acceptable life.
Having a parent, friend or partner is invaluable for any sick person, especially if that person can be supportive and help the ill person through it. Being sick, whether the flu or cancer, can alter a person's mood and sense of the future and what it might look like if you can get to the other side of the treatment. This kid is not terminal, and the treatment is not simply palliative. I might feel differently if the prognosis were different and the kid were making end of life choices.
Yeah, it's excruciating to watch someone you love go through something so physically awful. But, if the likelihood is that its temporary, you support them through it.
BTW, I write this personal stuff not so anyone will extend pity, but rather to clarify my POV. Generalities around chemo and cancer are complete bull, and speculating about "quality of life" as an armchair sport are kinda silly. I think this kid's parents are wrong, and I think a 16 year old's sense of the future is limited. Or the average 30 year old's some days of the week.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 8949
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
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Cyn and Pete were eloquent enough on this. Until you are there, you have no idea. I am not comfortable with the absolute judgements about what should/shouldn't happen by armchair quarterbacks.
I stand by my earlier assertion that I think the only thing we can know for sure is that these parents are in agony over the decision. |
Sandi and Paul
Citizen
Username: Momsandi
Post Number: 117
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 11:37 pm: |
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Cynical Girl, you said that your husband is getting a lighter dose. The boy that we are addressing is due to get a heavier dose, and the first dose almost killed him. That is the difference. Yes, if they were going to try a lighter dose on him, that would be a factor to consider. Are they giving your husband a lighter dose because of his reaction to the last chemo treatments or because, at this point, he doesn't need as big a dose? Best of luck! |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 5899
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:40 am: |
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There is a small article about this in the newest People Magazine. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of most ethnisists (spelling?) agree Abraham should be allowed to make his own choices. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 3063
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:45 am: |
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Sandi and Paul, it's a lighter dose because that's what they think he can tolerate. The usual regime is stronger. The expectation/hope is that it will work as well but take longer. We shall see. That said, every chemo protocol is different -- different mix of drugs/agents, combinations and schedules. None of us (I don't think) knows enough about this kid's protocol to suggest what the doctors should do, or what "almost killed" means. Feeling awful, weak (needing to be carried) etc. is not the same thing as nearly dying. His doctors would not, most likely, inflict a regime on him that his body couldn't handle. I'm pretty cynical about some things, but I've not known a doctor to willfully and stupidly just stick it to a patient without keeping a close eye on his reaction. And the patient's mental state does have a little to do with what they can tolerate. And that of the caregivers supporting him. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1882
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:09 pm: |
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I think the thing that bothers me about this issue the most is that the parents reaction to the Dr recommending more chemo, was to pursue 'alternative' cures. Why not get a second or third doctors opinion and try to educate themselves so that they can come to the realization that there are no alternatives.
Maybe a lighter dosage of chemo would be administered as with Cynicalgirls situation but certainly the course of action the parents are taking is not in the childs best interests. People come from all over the world to here to find the best medical practices. Hanging the life of a child on a huckster alternative 'herbal' solution to Hodgkins is tragic.
I have no axe to grind in this argument, I just cant stand to see decisions made because the treatment is so hard that there has to be another method. Sometimes there is no other method.
If a limb is gangrened you have to amputate, failure to amputate causes death. But amputation is a harsh treatment, maybe if this was the case the parents would go to Mexico and look for herbal cures instead. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 3064
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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Second opinions are always smart -- especially if one is far from major medical centers and specialists. We sought one, along with doing a ton of research into the going protocols, research directions, etc. I would hope his parents and the judge would do similarly.
It is certainly true that very often the medical establishment doesn't pay as much attention as might be wise to nutritional matters or complementary medicine. And certainly loss of nutrition and depression affect the efficacy of any regime, and patients and caregivers need to press for attention to those aspects of care.
For all that, there's a reason the Hoxley-ites opened up shop in another country. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2459
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:30 pm: |
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I just want to raise the issue that over the centuries there have been TONS AND TONS of medical hoaxes and we all have very valid reasons to be concerned about non-traditional or non-western treatments for things like cancer. Well I can understand how some people might want to try other approaches. I think someone above stated something like it's IMPOSSIBLE that cancer can be treated by herbs, and while I sort of know where they are coming from because I am equally leary of hoaxes and snake oil, I don't know if I can agree with that sort of statement.
There is a wealth of information and evidence of people getting more sick from the chemo than the cancer was doing to them. People react differently to it. I also knew of an oncologist who worked at Sloan-Kettering specializing in western medicine and cancer. He also had a practice in Chinese herbology. And while I thought that herbology was all bogus medicine, I had heard that he had gotten cancer to go into remission through herbal remedies. NO I DIDN'T RESEARCH IT TO SEE IF IT WAS TRUE. And I was equally as skeptical as you. But I guess my point really is this. Do you know with CERTAINTY that the herbs can't help? Can you know with absolute CERTAINTY that the chemo is THE BEST THING FOR THAT KID? If the kid dies from the chemo, is the court going to bring the kid back? Is the court going to pay restitution to the parents?
I'm sorry but I think the courts have overstepped their bounds on this issue. The parents have the right to work with their child to decide what treatment is right for themselves. I think that 16 is old enough to AT LEAST BE HEAVILY INVOLVED in your own treatment. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 8969
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
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My stepmother used herbs and accupuncture very successfully to manage the side effects of her breast cancer treatment. But that isn't what eliminated the cancer.
Many people do die from chemo. Neutropenia, other infections, anything. If you are having chemo, you can't, for instance, get a pedicure. Not because the cancer makes you inherently at risk, but because the chemo is wiping out everything in your body, including your ability to fight infections. An unsterilized cuticle nipper could very well be deadly.
Chemo is ugly, ugly, ugly. It is a treatment of last resort; when you have cancer your best shot at beating it, for any length of time, is to go straight to the last resort. There are adults who've been thru it who aren't emotionally equipped to handle the decision a second time around. My mother had a helluva time in her first round. Nine hospitalizations in as many months, almost died 3 times. She also had 3-4 good months before the cancer came back. She's getting sicker and no one pretends that we don't know what's going to happen. But, ironically, her quality of life is much better this time. She's had no hospitalizations, still goes to work, goes out with friends, etc.
At the end of the day, you don't know what's going to happen. This kid could have his worst fear or his greatest hope come true with new chemo. But, knowing how oncologists operate, I doubt that they would have taken this drastic step if they didn't think that he had a good chance.
Maybe they even did the parents a favor by taking an agonizing decision out of their hands. As I've said, none of us are in a position to second guess the family, docs or social workers because we don't have the facts. For that matter, neither do the medical ethicists. Great job, BTW, you get to ponder, theorize, pontificate and advise. But you don't have a patient's life or death in your hands.
I would love to see some research on Eastern medicine published in peer-reviewed medical journals, based on results of double-blind, randomized controlled clinical trials. I think that there is lots of room for Eastern medicine in supportive or adjunctive therapy. But for now, this poison is the best we've got and the best hope for some of these patients with aggressive, deadly, inoperable cancers. |
eliz
Supporter
Username: Eliz
Post Number: 1663
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:56 pm: |
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I just wonder if the authorities would have been so agressive if it weren't for the Mexican clinic angle. If the kid had said - "that's it, I'm done and I don't want to go through this again" I wonder if his wishes would have been respected.
30 to 50% survival is not the greatest odds.
I also can't imagine the turmoil for the doctor who will have to treat this person against their will. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1888
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:10 pm: |
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Hodkins survival rates
Hodgkins is one of the diseases that we have very good chance of beating using our current treatments. Not 100% but with young patients according to the ACS from the article
Quote:The 1-year relative survival rate for all patients after treatment is 93%; the 5-year and 10-year rates are 85% and 77%, respectively. At 15 years, the relative survival rate is 68%. Certain factors such as the stage of the disease and a patientÂ’s age (older patients have lower survival rates) affect this. During the first 15 years after treatment, the main cause of death in these patients is recurrent Hodgkin disease. By 15 to 20 years after treatment, death due to other causes, such as developing a second type of cancer, usually caused by treatment, is more common.
So for this disease in particular it is very irresponsible of these parents to accept 'alternative' medicine. |
eliz
Supporter
Username: Eliz
Post Number: 1664
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:14 pm: |
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From the article at the start of the thread:
Quote:According to studies compiled by the American Cancer Society, the five-year survival rate for those who undergo a second round of chemotherapy and a bone marrow transplant is between one-third and one-half, depending on the treatment facility.
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Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2461
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:26 pm: |
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I'll say it again: Can you know with absolute CERTAINTY that the chemo is THE BEST THING FOR THAT KID? If the kid dies from the chemo, is the court going to bring the kid back? Is the court going to pay restitution to the parents?
I know these are rhetorical questions but clearly NOT A SINGLE SOUL IS GOING TO ANSWER THEM. Who is so pious that they could answer them? My fear is that this is not about Mexican clinics and herbology and more to do with riteousness, piety and religion. A Schiavo redux. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1889
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:44 pm: |
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of course no one on MOL can answer that question. Only that kids drs are qualified to answer what is best, what the chances are, and what should be done next.
We are discussing the situation, the tragedy of the alternative that is being used as a sort of placebo. I wish that the cancer goes into remission by some miracle but that is only wishful thinking.
The other questions you raise are inconsequential. Hodgkins is a fatal disease. The kid will die without treatment. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2462
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
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It is rare, but cancer has been known to spontaneously go into remission. So you don't know that with certainty. And I suppose the REAL issue here is your assumption that his Dr. is the only one who gets to decide this matter. Somethings are life and death, and WE should get to decide, not someone else. That is what is at stake here as far as I can tell. Is 16 too young to decide such a thing. Are the parents negligent for letting their son decide for himself how to treat this. And does the court have a right to legislate such a matter. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1890
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:04 pm: |
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I dont think I used the singular dr. I used plural, and I have been accusing the parents since they are the ones making the decision. I agree with life and death the individual should be in control but this case is denying the chance of life.
If you want to point to some probability statistics of the rarity of remission in Hodgkins and hang your hat to that and hope for the best, then really the statistics say what is going to happen is death by Hodgkins.
http://www.cancer.umn.edu/cancerinfo/ped-hodgkins.html
Quote:When Hodgkin's disease is detected early and treated properly, as many as 90 percent of the cases can be cured. This is a big change from the prognosis — or outlook — 25 years ago. Before the development of new anti-cancer drugs, the disease was almost always fatal.
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Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2466
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:49 pm: |
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It was also pointed out Hoops that the percentage of cases cured drops DRAMATICALLY when chemo doesn't work the first time. Are you only reading the facts that support your argument or are you too pious enough to decide for the kid? |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1891
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:43 pm: |
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Pious? No I am not being pious at all. The position I am taking has nothing to do with religion, nothing to do with high minded morality and everything to do with the reality of his cancer.
Regardless of whether the chances are 30 to 50% as the article is stating or higher as I think might be the case, what is the alternative? It certainly is not life.
What these parents and that kid are doing is not taking the chance of life and instead are relying on a 'cure' that will not work.
I know what I would do if this were my kid. What would you do? |
eliz
Supporter
Username: Eliz
Post Number: 1669
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:52 pm: |
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I can't be sure what I would do. People face these decisions on a daily basis. If they are of a certain age their decision not to pursue additional rounds of treatment is often viewed with respect. This person already underwent one series of chemo, he knows what's ahead.
I never want to know what I would do. What I'm sure of is that it's not that black and white. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1893
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:56 pm: |
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eliz - there is no appropriate smiley icon for what you said given the seriousness of this thread. I think that your post is exactly right. |
Valley_girl
Citizen
Username: Valley_girl
Post Number: 134
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:41 pm: |
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As I understand it, he could undergo chemo again, and there's a 30-50% chance he will live (five years or more).
But there's a 50-70% chance he won't.
And if he doesn't, he may die faster, and in more pain, than he would have if he had done nothing. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 5919
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 11:29 pm: |
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I'm sorry, but I still think he and his family should be allowed to decide what is best for him. Not the Courts. Some people with cancer would rather have those one or two good years without treatment, then go through several years of being sick from Chemo for another five, feeling like $%&* most of the time. If this young man decided he wanted no treatment at all; would it be any different? What if he decided to be followed by Hospice? |
Stephanie N.
Citizen
Username: Stephanie_n
Post Number: 16
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:10 pm: |
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I agree with Eliz in that they wouldn't pursue this so aggressively if the Mexican clinic wasn't involved. I would be very curious as to what research done by the Cherrixs, was involved to determine that this clinic was in fact their best option.
I saw a nutritionist at Memorial Sloan Kettering last winter who told me that patients have told them they used alternative medicine to bring their cancer into remission when traditional therapies failed to do so - and he fully believed them. He gave me a few examples of both patients who used alternative treatment to successfully get their cancer into remission, and others who tried to use alternative treatment but it wasn't until they had chemo that their cancer went into remission. And in those cases, I wouldn't be surprised if the alternative treatment at least helped to strengthen their immune systems to make them better tolerate the chemo.
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Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2475
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 4:33 pm: |
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Hoops you want to rely on FACTS and NUMBERS as the basis of your argument. FINE. I'm all over that.
But please don't bother wasting my time with garbage like, "Regardless of whether the chances are 30 to 50% as the article is stating or higher as I think might be the case" (bold face added by me for emphasis).
I agree with Eliz. It was very articulate and straight to the point. I also am happy to hear that Stephanie gives more credence to what I was stating about "herbal" or "alternative" treatment options as NOT NECESSARILY being "A CURE THAT WON'T WORK" as you so emphatically put it. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 9006
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 4:45 pm: |
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Small point: hospice care does not preclude chemo or any other kind of treatment. The point is to supoort the patient and family, physically and emotionally. Support all decisions, even if that decision is to try to live. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1911
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:17 pm: |
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Alleygater - When you get your statistics from a newspaper article where the lawyer is being interviewed, you may not be getting the data that is accurate. I said 'I think might be' because I did not do the research to look up to see if these data are accurate. Would you care to try looking it up for me? I dont have time or inclination.
As far as alternative treatments for cancer go, when you find one that works better then what is medically available please let us know.
Hopefully none of us will have to address these issues but if you ever do I hope that you will do your due dilligence before deciding on your course of action. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 2478
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:45 am: |
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Hoops, what I would have preferred you having wished for me is that the courts don't force me to do something against my will. |
Sandi and Paul
Citizen
Username: Momsandi
Post Number: 120
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 10:26 am: |
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The courts announced they have arrived at a settlement in the case. The young man will be allowed to get his treatment of choice, not in Mexico, but in a clinic in Mississippi that specializes in various treatments. It has not yet been announced if his choice is still the same or some combination of therapies.
Right now he is healthy and helping his parents with their kayak business. They showed him on CNN but he made no statement. I do not believe that he would have survived the more intense chemo that his doctor had recommended for him, considering his past experience with chemo. I am happy for him and wish him the best!!! |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 5933
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 2:39 pm: |
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Community Care Hospice
Philosophy
Hospice is a special program for you and your family that offers care and support on physical, spiritual and emotional levels. When you and your doctor have explored all active treatment and the decision is made to seek palliative or comfort measures, Community Care Hospice will work with you to help you remain in the comfort of your own home. Allowing you to live your life to the fullest surrounded by family and friends. We will create a plan of care to maximize your comfort and relieve your symptoms. Our staff will teach your family and caregivers how to care for you and support you, which allows them to participate in your care in a way that is rewarding for them, as well as comforting to you. We are available to help you 24 hours a day, seven days a week, no matter what. We'll be there for you.
http://www.communityvna.org/
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Center for Hope Hospice & Palliative Care
"Within the Center For Hope Hospice & Palliative Care program, there is no active treatment of an illness. Instead, palliative medical care - to ensure the patient's comfort - is directed by the patient's physician. An interdisciplinary team provides physical, emotional and spiritual support to the patient and family members as one unit of care. Assistance of any kind is just a phone call away. Hospice personnel are available twenty-four hours a day, 7 days a week."
http://www.centerforhope.com/
****************************************************
Atlantic City Medical Center Hospice
What is Hospice Care?
"At the center of hospice is the belief that every person has the right to die in comfort and peace with dignity, and that families will receive the necessary support. The focus is on care, not cure. Care is provided in the patients' home or other appropriate setting. Providing a program of support and care for end of life patients and their families is the focus of AtlantiCare Hospice.
Hospice care is considered to be the model for quality, compassionate care at the end of life. Hospice care utilizes a team of professionals and volunteers that emphasizes pain and symptom management, and addresses the emotional, social and spiritual needs of the patient and family. This model of care is tailored to the needs and wishes of patients and their loved ones."
http://www.atlanticare.org/healthservices/hospice_faq.php
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Care Alternatives Hospice
Hospice is a comprehensive program of care available to patients and families facing a life-limiting illness.
Hospice emphasizes palliative care - pain relief and symptom control - rather than curative treatment. It focuses on improving the quality of life of the patient.
The key to hospice is comfort of the mind, body and spirit. To achieve this goal, hospice blends medical care with emotional and spiritual support. Hospice also provides support and counseling for families and caregivers, helping them through this difficult time.
Hospice is provided by an interdisciplinary team of physicians, nurses, medical social workers, spiritual counselors, nursing assistants, volunteers and therapists.
http://www.carealt.com/whatishospice.html
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Community Medical Center Van Dyke Hospice
Hospice is a concept of care provided to people in the final months of their lives, primarily in the comfort and privacy of their own homes. Patients are entitled to receive individualized physical care, as well as emotional support. The dedicated hospice staff also provides the same level of emotional and day-to-day support to the families and loved ones of those touched by illness.
http://www.sbhcs.com/hospitals/hospice/WHATIS/index.html
***************************************************
Odyssey Care
Hospice is not a place; it’s a concept about the quality of life as it nears its end for the patients and their families and friends. Even when medicine cannot provide a cure, it can offer comfort, care and assistance that can help maintain a better quality of life for the patient. This type of attention, called palliative care, involves the aggressive treatment of physical and emotional pain and symptoms. It focuses on enhancing a patient’s comfort and improving quality of life.
Hospice is based on the belief that through sensitive, appropriate care and the support of a caring community, terminally ill patients and their families can begin to prepare to face the inevitable challenges ahead. Centuries ago, a hospice was a shelter for travelers. Over the years, it evolved into a refuge where people could find care, comfort and support during difficult times in their journey through life.
http://www.odsyhealth.com/our_services.htm
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 5934
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 3:01 pm: |
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From ABC News
ACCOMAC, Va. Aug 16, 2006 (AP)— A 16-year-old cancer patient 's legal fight ended in victory Wednesday when his family's attorneys and social services officials reached an agreement that would allow him to forgo chemotherapy.
At the start of what was scheduled to be a two-day hearing, Accomack County Circuit Judge Glen A. Tyler announced that both sides had reached a consent decree, which Tyler approved.
Under the decree, Starchild Abraham Cherrix, who is battling Hodgkin's disease, will be treated by an oncologist of his choice who is board-certified in radiation therapy and interested in alternative treatments. The family must provide the court updates on Abraham's treatment and condition every three months until he's cured or turns 18.
Tyler emphasized that the decree states that the parents weren't medically neglectful.
Abraham saw the doctor last week, and defense attorneys told the judge that the doctor has indicated that he thinks that Abraham can be cured.
After the short hearing, the judge looked at Abraham and said, "God bless you, Mr. Cherrix."
Last summer, the teen was diagnosed with Hodgkin's disease, a cancer of the lymphatic system considered very treatable in its early stages. He was so debilitated by three months of chemotherapy that he declined a second, more intensive round that doctors recommended early this year.
He since has been using an alternative herbal treatment called the Hoxsey method, the sale of which was banned in the United States in 1960.
After Abraham chose to go on the sugar-free, organic diet and take liquid herbal supplements under the supervision of a Mexican clinic, a social worker asked a juvenile court judge to intervene to protect the teen's health. Last month, the judge found Abraham's parents neglectful and ordered Abraham to report to a hospital for treatment as doctors deem necessary.
Lawyers for the family appealed, and an Accomack County Circuit Court judge suspended that order and scheduled a new trial to settle the dispute. The judge scheduled the trial for two days but has indicated he would like to finish in one, said John Stepanovich, a lawyer for the parents.
Abraham is still on the Hoxsey method, but Stepanovich stressed that the family hasn't ruled out other possible treatments, such as immunotherapy or radiation treatment in small doses.
According to the American Cancer Society, there is no scientific evidence that Hoxsey is effective in treating cancer in people. The herbal treatment is illegal in the United States but can be obtained through clinics in Mexico, and some U.S. naturopathic practitioners use adapted versions of the formula.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2319402 |
Sandi and Paul
Citizen
Username: Momsandi
Post Number: 121
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 9:55 am: |
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Supposedly, this doctor in Mississippi has had success using Horsey and herbal treatments combined with traditional methods including radiation. He has stated that each person's constitution is different as well as each case of cancer and that traditional chemo would not work on this boy as demonstrated by the quick recurrence of the disease and the bad reaction the young man's body had to the chemo. I have more faith in this doctor than in the doctor who wanted to increase his chemo even though it had such a bad effect the last time. Also, he is allowed to practice in the US which makes his treatment more credible and is what led to the family's win in court. |
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