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Archive through August 24, 2006yabbadabbadooTom Reingold40 8-24-06  5:21 pm
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Lydia
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 5:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do not believe in God, Gods, and w/ the recent planetary developments I don't believe I'm a Scorpio ascendant with Pluto rising.

James Randi wrote an essay that I refer to now and then - he sums my view on religion - here's the link and an excerpt:

Why I Deny Religion, How Silly and Fantastic It Is, and Why I'm a Dedicated and Vociferous Bright.

"The credophiles try to establish a parallel between science and religion. This is a useless pursuit; these ideas are exact opposites of one another. No, as Dawkins also writes, "Although it has many of religion's virtues, [science] has none of its vices. Science is based upon verifiable evidence

We find religion in so much of our history, our philosophy, our everyday lives, and our legal system. Miscegenation was banned based on Biblical rules, slavery was justified by the same book. It's convenient to have an ancient set of rules to back up odious actions and behavior, especially when it can be argued that a certain amount of "interpretation" — though never outright denial! — is necessary for them to properly be applied to any given situation. In that regard, I reject the tired arguments that try to excuse perfectly obvious errors and blunders of religion by insisting that "it doesn't really mean that." It means what it says, and no amount of alibi-ing and explaining will convince me that they didn't intend the faithful to actually believe that the Universe was created in seven days. Make up your mind: either it's right, or it's wrong. "
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yabbadabbadoo
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 6:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom:

The God that I was enquiring about is the one as described by Joe at 4:51pm. Under that definition, I read your response as a "no".

FF
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yabbadabbadoo
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 6:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I think God is created by man because we have faith that God exists. It is from our imagination and ponderance that our knowledge and our qualities can be expanded infinitely beyond our current imagination that God exists."

Tom, I think that we're on the same page here and as I said at the start of this thread, I'm not convinced.

FF
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Monster©
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I challenge anyone to prove that god exists by introducing it to me at Bunnys tomorrow, when it picks up a beer and drinks, or eats a slice of pizza in front of me, then I will believe.
I'll even shake it's hand and ask it where the he ll it's been for so long, and what the he ll it plans on doing for the world, because it hasn't been doing anything.

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Nohero
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Under those criteria, you probably don't believe in Bill Gates, either.
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Monster©
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

not until he puts a few million in my hands.
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Joe R.
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Just because God needs us (and don't you agree?)"

Tom: No, I don't agree. Why would an all powerful, self-sustaining God need us? God has plenty of perfectly respectable creations and doesn't need us in particular. Monster won't believe unless Monster gets to eat pizza with God. A character named Thomas made a similar bizarre request in the NT and unexpectedly got his wish!

As far as I know, Monster and I have never had pizza...does that mean I don't exist?

Tom...let's have that coffee sometime...better yet...lets make it a beer and some pizza at Bunny's with Monster and GOD!
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Bajou
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If there is a god then I'd like to know where the hell he has been the last 2000 years. He certainly wasn't on the job.
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Monster©
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

do I?
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CLK
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like a lot of what Tom is saying, though I'm not sure I agree with all of it.

Faith is just that - faith. It does not require God to pick up a slice of pizza and eat it, to "prove" His existence, which cannot be proven.

I do not know how the Universe was created. Nobody does, really, and I seriously doubt that we ever will. I do not seriously believe that a conscious entity created it - it just is. Creation requires a starting point, and as the universe cannot have a starting point, it cannot have been created either by a conscious entity or by elemental forces. It is however constantly changing, at least on a local level. "Change" implies that we take the concept of time seriously, however, and that is in itself problematic at a grand level. At a local level, of course, I'm a little ticked off that my watch stopped a couple of days ago, making me late for appointments and so forth .... but at a very large level, time is a by-product of the way biological beings trapped in three dimensions interpret the universe. (tell that to your boss tomorrow at 9:30 and see what kind of reaction you get! That would be fun. )

The structure and reality of the universe is considerably more peculiar than most MOL posters can probably fathom. Just a few episodes of that Elegant Universe program on Nova recently convinced me that I'm a total idiot as far as all of that is concerned.

So how does that all relate to God? I have no idea. But I think it does.

We biological beings interpret the Universe in a number of strange ways, some of which may have some bearing on reality, but most of which have absolutely no bearing whatsoever, and when they do it's just a matter of luck. What's more, our understanding of what constitutes "proof" or "reality" is fairly fluid, and changes all the time.

I'm not laying out the tired argument that there is no proof for anything, so we might as well believe in God - but I am saying that there is nothing inherently stupid about believing in God, either. I think that humans are incredibly insignificant and what we believe or don't believe is essentially unimportant.

How we feel about others is terribly important however. On a very local Earthbound level, suffering is real, and as conscious beings we have an obligation to prevent and mitigate it, and foster peace wherever possible. I think that we are happier and experience life more fully when we try to understand the world from a more gentle and compassionate perspective than most of us do on a daily basis. If believing in God helps you get there - then this is a good thing for you. But if believing in God makes you less compassionate, then that belief is bad for you.

But in the end, how the hell do I know if there is a God or not? I don't even know how the can opener works.
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Calliope
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd like to recommend a book A History of GOD by Karen Armstrong.
It is not light reading, but very readable. It may raise more questions than it answers, but I guarantee you a thought-provoking experience,if you are serious about learning about how religious traditions are inextricably entwined.
Armstrong herself is a fascinating person.

Calli

yes, I read this kind of stuff willingly and no one ever grades me on it.
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CLK
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I want to clarify something: I said that humans are incredibly insignificant. I stress this because I think a lot of humanity's ills have been because of ego, because of the CERTAINTY that we are right about something.

I read a fair chunk of Sam Harris's book, which I thought was pretty shallow and un-enlightening. He blamed a lot of the world's ills on religion. I would instead blame those same ills on this certainty of belief - which isn't always about religion.

If you accept that we are nothing - we understand the universe no better than the scum of mold cells that grows on our kitchen sponges understands our kitchen, or the manufacturing process that created the sponge, or the global economy that allowed all of this to happen - then you lose this arrogance that has brought about so much suffering.

Certainty that there is no God is just as damaging as certainty that there is one.

I am certain of this. ;-)
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Jersey_Boy
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone, certain that there is no God, ever sought to kill those who disagreed? I don't mean Satanists. I mean Atheists. I've never heard of it.

J.B.
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Dave
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even in the Bible God kills thousands more humans than Satan.

I suppose you could look at Buddhism for insights into war/killing. Buddhists are essentially atheists and have no teleology (endgame).
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Joe R.
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 11:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I do not know how the Universe was created"

Thanks for that much at least, CLK. I don't know how it was created either but I do know it was created. The stuff of the universe is "creation". "Creation" requires a "creator". Now I can go to bed. Someone finally undertands me.

"Has anyone, certain that there is no God, ever sought to kill those who disagreed? I don't mean Satanists. I mean Atheists. I've never heard of it."

JB- Does Stalin count? What about Caligula and Nero? You think God believers have a corner on genocide?
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Dave
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sure no one has a corner on the market for crimes against humanity.

On the creation of the universe thing, the unverse most likely has no beginning point. If it did have a beginning, God would have to have been created along with it because if he/she/they/it were around prior to the beginning, the universe would have already begun.

ok my brain hurts now
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notehead
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't care much for Pascal, but I still have a fondness for COBOL.
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Bajou
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 12:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why does creation need a creator? The only religion I could ever possibly be part of is buddhism because it merely points to the power within oneself. In Buddhism we are the creator and the creation all in one.

I do not consider humans to be above the rest of other living creatures. Life is god to me as it has the ability to endure, change, adapt and come in so many forms. A flower has abilities that we as humans will never have and just because we are not able to understand communications from other life forms like animals and plants doesn't mean they don't exist or are less valid. Corals communicate over miles by releasing chemicals that warn the population further down the reef of attacks of fungi. Ants and bees for instance have managed to create intricate social structures that are all in all way more successfull and beneficial to each individual than anything we humans have managed to put together. Bonos'(part of the ape family) have created a society were stress is managed and relieved through sex and not violence (the 60's without bellbottoms). So we cannot speak to other life forms and we are intrigued by their abilities but we categorically deny them the status of equality. A person who thinks that an animal is not able of cognitive thinking hasn't spent alot of time with them. Trees seed less to ensure survival of potential seedlings when rainfall levels were low in the previous year. We have become a pretentious species that judges all (including within our own species) by our ability to understand the other. We have lifted ourselves above the rest and are convinced that the others are not equal to us. Everytime a people has become that pretentious the downfall was catastrophic and I guess we haven't learned from history.

We are nothing but the bratty child of a large family who disrupts and destroys without care for the others only to find that when all others are long gone that we cannot survive without them.

I feel sorry for future generations!
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CLK
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 6:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"the unverse most likely has no beginning point. If it did have a beginning, God would have to have been created along with it because if he/she/they/it were around prior to the beginning, the universe would have already begun. "

Pretty much what I think - except for one thing. The idea of a "beginning" presupposes the meaningful existence of time. Thus there can be no beginning, because time is not "real" in the way that we sense it. The entire concept of "beginning" and "ending" is an artifact of the way humans (or all three-dimensional beings) must relate to the universe.

I could be entirely wrong about this, however (and to be honest I don't really understand it in the way that a mathematician does, at a dep level). All of our percpetions are artifacts, and reality is unknowable in a large sense.

Therefore, discussion of the existence of God or not is kind of pointless. We really don't know and can never know. There can never be proof of the existence of God. It is cosmologically as well as theologically impossible.

I personally find spirituality to be an important dimension of my life, that helps me understand much that is otherwise obscure to me. I can't see that this will ever change. This is a personal choice. You may choose something else, and in the end it matters very little what I choose and what you choose.

Our conscious human actions are capable of bringing about better or worse results on our own very insignificant little planet, however. Though our planet is insignificant in a universal sense, to us it is (and always will be) all-important. And because we have consciousness, we have responsibility for our experiences here.

Discussing this responsibility seems a more fruitful thing to me than forever debating the existence of something that is unknowable.
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Psychomom
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 9:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard this quote once and it seems to fit here...

"To those who believe no explanation is necessary. To those who do not no explanation is possible."

If I believe in God and it turns out that there isn't one, What harm has been done? But if I don't believe and it turns out that there is a God...Is He/She going to be pissed??? I don't want to find out.

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Project 37
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

I don't care much for Pascal, but I still have a fondness for COBOL.



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Calliope
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Psychomom, you have just paraphrased "Pascal's Wager" which basically is:

You may believe in God, and if God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
You may believe in God, and if God doesn't exist, your loss is finite and therefore negligible.
You may not believe in God, and if God doesn't exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.
You may not believe in God, and if God exists, you will go to hell: your loss is infinite.

So, the moral is: hedge your bets!

C
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Dave
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


(The grand inquisitor in Brothers Karamazov addressing the returned and captured Jesus}



Quote:

"'This is the significance of the first question in the wilderness, and this is what Thou hast rejected for the sake of that freedom which Thou hast exalted above everything. Yet in this question lies hid the great secret of this world. Choosing "bread," Thou wouldst have satisfied the universal and everlasting craving of humanity -- to find someone to worship. So long as man remains free he strives for nothing so incessantly and so painfully as to find someone to worship. But man seeks to worship what is established beyond dispute, so that all men would agree at once to worship it. For these pitiful creatures are concerned not only to find what one or the other can worship, but to find community of worship is the chief misery of every man individually and of all humanity from the beginning of time. For the sake of common worship they've slain each other with the sword. They have set up gods and challenged one another, "Put away your gods and come and worship ours, or we will kill you and your gods!" And so it will be to the end of the world, even when gods disappear from the earth; they will fall down before idols just the same. Thou didst know, Thou couldst not but have known, this fundamental secret of human nature, but Thou didst reject the one infallible banner, which was offered Thee to make all men bow down to Thee alone -- the banner of earthly bread; and Thou hast rejected it for the sake of freedom and the bread of Heaven. Behold what Thou didst further. And all again in the name of freedom! I tell Thee that man is tormented by no greater anxiety than to find someone quickly to whom he can hand over that gift of freedom with which the ill-fated creature is born. But only one who can appease their conscience can take over their freedom. In bread there was offered Thee an invincible banner; give bread, and man will worship thee, for nothing is more certain than bread. But if someone else gains possession of his conscience -- Oh! then he will cast away Thy bread and follow after him who has ensnared his conscience. In that Thou wast right. For the secret of man's being is not only to live but to have something to live for. Without a stable conception of the object of life, man would not consent to go on living, and would rather destroy himself than remain on earth, though he had bread in abundance. That is true. But what happened? Instead of taking men's freedom from them, Thou didst make it greater than ever! Didst Thou forget that man prefers peace, and even death, to freedom of choice in the knowledge of good and evil? Nothing is more seductive for man than his freedom of conscience, but nothing is a greater cause of suffering. And behold, instead of giving a firm foundation for setting the conscience of man at rest for ever, Thou didst choose all that is exceptional, vague and enigmatic; Thou didst choose what was utterly beyond the strength of men, acting as though Thou didst not love them at all- Thou who didst come to give Thy life for them! Instead of taking possession of men's freedom, Thou didst increase it, and burdened the spiritual kingdom of mankind with its sufferings for ever. Thou didst desire man's free love, that he should follow Thee freely, enticed and taken captive by Thee. In place of the rigid ancient law, man must hereafter with free heart decide for himself what is good and what is evil, having only Thy image before him as his guide. But didst Thou not know that he would at last reject even Thy image and Thy truth, if he is weighed down with the fearful burden of free choice? They will cry aloud at last that the truth is not in Thee, for they could not have been left in greater confusion and suffering than Thou hast caused, laying upon them so many cares and unanswerable problems.

"'So that, in truth, Thou didst Thyself lay the foundation for the destruction of Thy kingdom, and no one is more to blame for it. Yet what was offered Thee? There are three powers, three powers alone, able to conquer and to hold captive for ever the conscience of these impotent rebels for their happiness those forces are miracle, mystery and authority. Thou hast rejected all three and hast set the example for doing so. When the wise and dread spirit set Thee on the pinnacle of the temple and said to Thee, "If Thou wouldst know whether Thou art the Son of God then cast Thyself down, for it is written: the angels shall hold him up lest he fall and bruise himself, and Thou shalt know then whether Thou art the Son of God and shalt prove then how great is Thy faith in Thy Father." But Thou didst refuse and wouldst not cast Thyself down. Oh, of course, Thou didst proudly and well, like God; but the weak, unruly race of men, are they gods? Oh, Thou didst know then that in taking one step, in making one movement to cast Thyself down, Thou wouldst be tempting God and have lost all Thy faith in Him, and wouldst have been dashed to pieces against that earth which Thou didst come to save. And the wise spirit that tempted Thee would have rejoiced. But I ask again, are there many like Thee? And couldst Thou believe for one moment that men, too, could face such a temptation? Is the nature of men such, that they can reject miracle, and at the great moments of their life, the moments of their deepest, most agonising spiritual difficulties, cling only to the free verdict of the heart? Oh, Thou didst know that Thy deed would be recorded in books, would be handed down to remote times and the utmost ends of the earth, and Thou didst hope that man, following Thee, would cling to God and not ask for a miracle. But Thou didst not know that when man rejects miracle he rejects God too; for man seeks not so much God as the miraculous. And as man cannot bear to be without the miraculous, he will create new miracles of his own for himself, and will worship deeds of sorcery and witchcraft, though he might be a hundred times over a rebel, heretic and infidel. Thou didst not come down from the Cross when they shouted to Thee, mocking and reviling Thee, "Come down from the cross and we will believe that Thou art He." Thou didst not come down, for again Thou wouldst not enslave man by a miracle, and didst crave faith given freely, not based on miracle. Thou didst crave for free love and not the base raptures of the slave before the might that has overawed him for ever. But Thou didst think too highly of men therein, for they are slaves, of course, though rebellious by nature. Look round and judge; fifteen centuries have passed, look upon them. Whom hast Thou raised up to Thyself? I swear, man is weaker and baser by nature than Thou hast believed him! Can he, can he do what Thou didst? By showing him so much respect, Thou didst, as it were, cease to feel for him, for Thou didst ask far too much from him -- Thou who hast loved him more than Thyself! Respecting him less, Thou wouldst have asked less of him. That would have been more like love, for his burden would have been lighter. He is weak and vile. What though he is everywhere now rebelling against our power, and proud of his rebellion? It is the pride of a child and a schoolboy. They are little children rioting and barring out the teacher at school. But their childish delight will end; it will cost them dear. Mankind as a whole has always striven to organise a universal state. There have been many great nations with great histories, but the more highly they were developed the more unhappy they were, for they felt more acutely than other people the craving for world-wide union. The great conquerors, Timours and Ghenghis-Khans, whirled like hurricanes over the face of the earth striving to subdue its people, and they too were but the unconscious expression of the same craving for universal unity. Hadst Thou taken the world and Caesar's purple, Thou wouldst have founded the universal state and have given universal peace. For who can rule men if not he who holds their conscience and their bread in his hands? We have taken the sword of Caesar, and in taking it, of course, have rejected Thee and followed him. Oh, ages are yet to come of the confusion of free thought, of their science and cannibalism. For having begun to build their tower of Babel without us, they will end, of course, with cannibalism. But then the beast will crawl to us and lick our feet and spatter them with tears of blood. And we shall sit upon the beast and raise the cup, and on it will be written, "Mystery." But then, and only then, the reign of peace and happiness will come for men. Thou art proud of Thine elect, but Thou hast only the elect, while we give rest to all. And besides, how many of those elect, those mighty ones who could become elect, have grown weary waiting for Thee, and have transferred and will transfer the powers of their spirit and the warmth of their heart to the other camp, and end by raising their free banner against Thee. Thou didst Thyself lift up that banner. But with us all will be happy and will no more rebel nor destroy one another as under Thy freedom. Oh, we shall persuade them that they will only become free when they renounce their freedom to us and submit to us. And shall we be right or shall we be lying? They will be convinced that we are right, for they will remember the horrors of slavery and confusion to which Thy freedom brought them. Freedom, free thought, and science will lead them into such straits and will bring them face to face with such marvels and insoluble mysteries, that some of them, the fierce and rebellious, will destroy themselves, others, rebellious but weak, will destroy one another, while the rest, weak and unhappy, will crawl fawning to our feet and whine to us: "Yes, you were right, you alone possess His mystery, and we come back to you, save us from ourselves!"




Maybe Dostoevsky is god?
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Tom Reingold
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fred, I guess you get to define your own question, but I'm a bit dismayed that you interpret my answer as a "no" because that's not how it feels to me. I guess if you asked me if God is the guy who throws down lightning bolts and whom Charlton Heston portrayed, then I would have said no. I don't think of myself as an atheist, even though I don't find some common perceptions of God to be useful to me.

I like how nohero quoted the thing about doubt. It does seem to be a critical element, at least for me. And those who believe in God and claim to have no doubts seem either dishonest or shallow.

What's my favorite piece of music? Whichever I happen to be listening to at the moment. What form does God take? The one I imagine God to have at the moment. I suppose occasionally I find the poetry in scriptures, which describe God as a king or a father, appealing, but not for long. But in that moment, it works for me.

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Rastro
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One can be areligious and still believe in G-d. That is, I can believe there is a G-d, and not believe that organized religion is the way to recognize that existence.

The problem I have with Pascal's wager is that it presupposes that not believing in G-d means you will go to Hell. This means that one should believe in the Christian version of G-d, not just any religion's G-d. In Judaism, for example, there is no Hell. I am not sure about other religions' takes on the matter. Also, it does not take into account Purgatory. Only Heaven and Hell.

I find it difficult to believe that if, say Mother Theresa, had done all her good deeds but was not Christian, she could not go to Heaven. A god that requires specific beliefs as a requirement for reward is, in my mind, petty and not deserving of the title.

But that's just my opinion.
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Joe R.
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But if I don't believe and it turns out that there is a God...Is He/She going to be pissed??? I don't want to find out."

Psychmom: The God I have in mind has no interest in whether we believe in God, but is intensely interested in how we behave toward one another and the rest of creation. In short, I believe paradise is full of ex-atheists.
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Hoops
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Username: Hoops

Post Number: 1971
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the words of Donald Rumsfeld


Quote:

...,because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."




and so no one knows at the moment of the creation of the universe if it was God that created the universe or if the universe created itself. Looking for an origin where there isnt one makes for an interesting scientific problem and it is there where we cant know what happened that humans have a need to explain the unexplainable. The concept of God is one that is a catchall. Dont know why it rains? God made the rain. Cant figure out why things are so bad in your life? God is punishing you for your sins. It makes it easy to understand our world if you can put off to faith that the sun will rise without having to worry about why.

Who created god? I think it is obvious that man did. It is not so obvious how the universe originated.

I would like for there to be a heaven at the end of life but absent proof I find it hard to believe that there will be.

Religion has its place in humanity for its ritual and for its help in dealing with day to day issues, morality and end of life closure. I wouldnt denigrate any person who has a spiritual belief that I dont share and really I have some envy of those whose faith allows them the comfort of 'eternal life' through belief.
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Joe R.
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Username: Ragnatela

Post Number: 555
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 4:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Who created god? I think it is obvious that man did. It is not so obvious how the universe originated."

I would say man didn't create God...he discovered God, realized God or experienced God. Man never fundamentally created anything, really.

"no one knows at the moment of the creation of the universe if it was God that created the universe or if the universe created itself."

If the universe created itself, then the universe is God the Creator. That's ok with me because that would mean that everything in the world is either "God" or "of God". Who knows?

The best thing about this thread is that, as far as I can tell, there is a sharp difference of opinion here and yet no one has denigrated any else here. This Board is full of thoughtful and sincere people which makes it a pleasure to participate. Think about it, would the people you live with tolerate you talking about this stuff all week? That's what friends are for!

I'm off to a wedding upstate. Although I'm sure God will be invoked more than a few times during the ceremony, I'm pretty sure no one at the wedding will want to talk about it very much. I need a few days off anyway.

Have a great weekend.



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Tom Reingold
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Username: Noglider


Post Number: 15451
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 5:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the quest for understanding the creation of the universe necessarily leads us closer to understand God and whether there is a God. Rather, it could, but it's not necesarily the best place to start. I actually don't wonder much about how the universe started, but I do ponder the nature of God a fair bit.

Joe R wrote: I would say man didn't create God...he discovered God, realized God or experienced God. Man never fundamentally created anything, really.

I think making a distinction between creation and discovery is not necessarily important, either. Does two plus two equal four if we don't notice?

I'm in the middle of a podcast of an interview of Karen Armstrong. Wow, how fascinating! http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/armstrong/kristasjournal.shtml She speaks of how violence and hatred come from arrogance and how the realization of God are an act of discarding our egos. But she puts it much better than I can.

"Just because God needs us (and don't you agree?)"

Tom: No, I don't agree. Why would an all powerful, self-sustaining God need us?


To me, it's like a giant pot of water we're all trying to boil. It's so big that it spans several burners. It boils best if we all pitch in and turn our burners on under the pot. How can we need God without God needing us? And vice versa! God gains nothing if we are all unconscious of God's existence.

Joe R, my body has no tolerance for alcohol. I drink one drink and get giddy for about four minutes and then feel very sleepy. Maybe you can drink beer while I drink coffee or juice.
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Lydia
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Username: Lydial

Post Number: 2145
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 6:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If we as humans with rational thought take God and religion out of the picture I think it leads to a greater capacity for understanding and compassion for our fellow humans.

Not believing in God or anything supernatural means that we all share the same reality.

A few weeks ago we had a planet called Pluto. Millions of people have faith that somehow the planets influence their lives and make them who they are. If Pluto isn't a planet, then what does that say for astrology?

Science is beautiful IMO because it's never absolute.

I don't know how the universe began, it's an open question, that doesn't mean that there's a supernatural force, it just means to me that "we" don't know.

I like uncertainty, it keeps me engaged and curious. What I don't know keeps life interesting, I want to be challenged, I want to have questions and puzzles.

Probably why I keep coming back to MOL - it's not the agreements, it's the discussions.
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Calliope
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Username: Calliope

Post Number: 1036
Registered: 3-2006


Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 6:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom,
I am so glad your interest has been piqued in Karen Armstrong and her work.
I think she speaks and writes with such eloquence and clarity. When I read A History of God it resonated so with me, and explained so much, so well.
Every spiritual journey starts with questions. While we all may have different destinations here, the questions are Universal.
I believe that faith is a gift,one we have all been given. And like any gift, you can accept it, or reject it. Through the years, I have lost my "religion" but I have never lost my faith. I think the philosophy and explanation of Karen Armstrong embody those which have pushed me and pulled me toward my own destination.
Calli
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Rastro
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Username: Rastro


Post Number: 3797
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Man never fundamentally created anything, really. " So who created my TiVO?
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 12493
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 4:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydia, while I think astrology is a crock, it has been around way, way before Pluto was discovered and named in 1930.

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swishliquor
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Username: Swishliquor

Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2006


Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a GOD that drives a truck. Stands for guaranteed overnight delivery.
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steel
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Username: Steel

Post Number: 1106
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 5:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"In the beginning" man created god and gods out of fear and wonder:

-Death, what's the deal?
-What's that big burning ball in the sky? -What's the deal?
-Where's rain come from? -What's up with that?
-What's the deal with the other cool ball in the sky at night?
-This world is chaos, I think we need some rules here (not exactly heavenly so far though you can find a corner of it now and again).
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John Caffrey
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Username: Jerseyjack

Post Number: 552
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a god and...

Now, the first four words make sense. When you go beyond the 4th word, you are into superstition.

Faith? Believing in something you know can't possibly be true.
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Tom Reingold
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Username: Noglider


Post Number: 15462
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would reword that slightly. Faith is believing in something you know you can't possibly prove.

steel, it's possible that we conceived of God originally to explain natural phenomena, but while that has become less useful now, it doesn't render God useless to all of us.

And let's not confuse religion with God.

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