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Message |
    
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1769
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:14 am: | 
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Yes, algebra, exactly.
Brett, I've come back to make a small apology for my pissy tone. You've touched a nerve here. I think it is far better for children to see parents taking a healthy attitude toward liquor than pretending it doesn't exist until the kid is off unsupervised on a college campus.
Better also for kids to see their parents having an occasional drink than to have one parent leaving them at home with the other to hang out alone on a stool at your ideal kiddie-free bar too often. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2643
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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I was drunk 
I was probably a little off on that post. My point is more that a bar is a place for adults. I just don't think a kid should be there for a lot of reasons. I don't want to explain to my kid about the drunkard at the end of the bar, or have them hearing an awkward conversation.
I also don't think that a bar is set up for a conversation with a kid. You're positioned to look at the TV, or other patrons, not each other. Isn't a booth a better place to have a conversation with a youngster?
I'm not anti Alcohol at all. When I was a kid my mom would bring a beer out for my dad while we were working and they'd let me take a pull, no harm no foul. But as I recall we never stat at a bar, because I remember my 1st time and how old I felt.
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blackcat
Citizen
Username: Blackcat
Post Number: 741
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 1:01 pm: |
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Hmmmm. My dad would bring me to the bar when I was little. But then he was an alcoholic. |
Flameretardant
Citizen
Username: Flameretardant
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 2:40 pm: |
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Agree with blackcat's "hmmm." My folks were pretty open about alcohol, would even order us kids a glass of wine at a restaurant on special occasions. I suppose it created a healthy acceptance of drinking, not the forbidden-fruit syndrome, etc. Then again, maybe we grew too casual about it -- my brother became a (very serious) alcoholic. Interesting dilemma. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 9201
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 2:52 pm: |
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My parents let me have a teeny bit of wine when we had company for dinner & once I turned 13, a splash of scotch in my ginger ale if they had company at home.
Subsequently, alcohol was no big to me. Other than the two times that I can remember in high school, I didn't drink until I was 21.
I smoked a lot of pot, tho. 
Seriously, I am with the "last bastion of adulthood" crowd. There are places that grown-ups should be able to hang other than tittie bars. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12510
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 3:02 pm: |
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Should adults at a bar change their behavior when parents bring kids in?
I don't hang in bars very often anymore, but adults talk and argue things like politics and sports and try to pickup other patrons and generally discuss adult subjects, often using adult words.
Should this change because someone brings their kids into a bar for a Shirley Temple? |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1770
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 3:08 pm: |
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Not as long as the behavior changes once you are seated at a table next to us in the dining room!...but if you are being seriously off color or throwing too many f-bombs, you might be surprised how many other adults don't want to hear it either! |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 3117
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 3:37 pm: |
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Somehow I'm reminded of a scene in Sister Act wherein a kind of hardcore, biker guy worries that his tavern is turning into "a nuns' bar."
I don't go to bars much anymore, but I've certainly heard some stuff at the bar at St. James Gate and also Cent'anni that child shouldn't hear. This would've been early evening. People bitching about work in colorful language, or a couple of young women talking about men in some fairly Sex in the CIty ways. They should be able to do that. In neither case were people really loud or raucous, but it still wasn't child friendly. |
MeAndTheBoys
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 4375
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:18 pm: |
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If I bring my kid into a bar, I would expect to hear certain kinds of conversations that might be off-color or inappropriate for children. That's not to say I don't hear some of that same kind of stuff on the street. If I bring my kid into a bar, I wouldn't expect that anyone would change the way they would normally behave in that venue. However, I do have the right to bring my kid in if that's what I choose to do.
That being said, I can count on one hand the number of times I've taken my kids into a bar--and a couple of those times were Bunnies. Don't know if we're counting Bunnies as a "bar" here, but it's a "bar" in my book. And only since the smoking ban.
To be honest, a lot of what goes on in the outside world just goes right over my kid's head. I don't believe they're paying attention to every little thing being said by every other person in the place. Particularly if they're there with friends. One of the reasons I like being in a bar setting with my kids is that, generally, it's so loud that no one notices when my kids get a little loud too.
Again, this comes down to folks with children having just as much right to frequent any establishment that folks without children frequent. And, as always, I'll do my level best to make sure my kids are on their best possible behavior and aren't bothering other patrons.
Then again, my kids are in bed by 8. Can't imagine you'd find that many little kids in a bar after about 8 or 9 anyway, so you're late nights are still safe.
Of course, my preference would be to be at the bar without my kids, but that's usually not possible. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2647
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:32 pm: |
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I just called Ken at the ABC, pretty nice guy. There is no law in NJ forbidding children from sitting at a bar (Dammit). The Owner of the bar can make it policy, but Ken adds, that it may cause Civil Action if his own children sit at the bar and another family can not. He did say that local laws can be passed and there are about 60 towns in NJ that have local laws forbidding it.
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themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 3214
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
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There are so few real bars anymore. I mean places where the seats at the bar outnumber the seats at tables.
Anyone been to Hawk's? I am very curious about it. I like the fact that it is freestanding with a yard and a tree. Great name, too. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 9208
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:52 pm: |
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I think the objection that some (me included) have is the invasion of adult space (the actual bar, not the restaurant) by kids. No one is questioning the right of parents to go anywhere; it is the right of the kids to go anywhere.
If I have an adult party, it is not the right of adults I invite to bring their kids if they can't get a sitter (I'm not accusing anyone here of doing that, BTW).
I think this is just as silly as adults who go to the pool or the Mapleleaf (supremely child-centric places) and expect the kids not to act like kids.
Bunny's is a great example of a place that is child and adult friendly. There are a room in the back with tables and bars stools/booths up front. A place for everyone. Same as The Gate.
Yesterday, for example, someone had their child at the impromptu F2F. The kid had her pizza and spent most of her time at the game machine. Most of us clustered around the bar and acted like idiots.
Well, OK. Monster acted like an idiot. The rest of us where there for the ride.  |
MeAndTheBoys
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 4383
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 5:34 pm: |
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Not looking for an argument--and certainly not with Greenetree--just playing devils advocate here.
If you invited me to attend an adult party, I would know that becuase the invitiation would have been addressed to Mr. & Mrs. MATB. I would never presume to bring my kids along because that would be just plain rude, and if I couldn't get a sitter, I wouldn't go to your party. And I have a lot fewer rights as a guest in your private home than I do in a "public" space like a bar. And sometimes, the places that do have liqour licenses are so crowded that a seat at the bar, or at a table in the bar, are your only alternatives. Because waiting for a table elsewhere is often not a viable option when with children. Get them seated, get them fed, and get the hell out before they reach the end of their rope!
So, are you gonna hold it against me next time I show up at an impromptu F2F with my kids? Now I'm gonna be all self-concious. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1982
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 5:39 pm: |
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a man walks into a bar... |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 9216
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 5:43 pm: |
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No reason to be self-conscious. Just follow a couple simple guidelines and you'll be fine.
If the post says "Where is everyone? Come to Bunny's" bring the kids without a care.
If the post says "Come on down to Bunny's; the largest party pays for the beer" then bring your kids and the neighbors' kids.
If the thread says "Come down to Bunny's; Monster's paying 1:4 odds that Las will take Bets in naked jello wrestling" don't bring the kids.
Or do. It's not my job to tell you how to parent. But don't expect me to chip in for their therapy.
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MeAndTheBoys
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 4384
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 5:56 pm: |
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Technically, and to be fair, it seems to me it should be "the largest party of drinking age adults pays for beer." I may be bringing the kids, but they're definately not chugging down pitchers of beer!
And believe me, I'm not paying for their therapy either. I'm doing the best I can, and then they're on their own. After all, I'm not perfect and certainly can't be held responsible for all of their problems. |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1775
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 6:52 pm: |
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themp,
nearly every time we pass hawk's (the one by 78, right? or is it the one on Springfield - I mean the one by 78), mr. doula says we should go there...yet we never have. I, too, am curious. And I would not bring my kids.
But I have brought them to the restaurant at the Gate.
ps
I have many fond memories of sitting at the local bar with my drinkin' (beer or coffee were his only liquids, I believe), smokin' grandpa...I would usually get a shirley temple & often a beef jerkey, which I would use as a bookmark for a while & then eat it. I bet he left me in the car for a minute sometimes too... |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1776
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 6:55 pm: |
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oops - I may mean Liberty Tavern |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12511
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 7:03 pm: |
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Driving down SA in Vauxhall with one of my brother in laws, a Mass State Police Captain, he commented about the size of windows and how tough a bar is. Hawks has very small windows, which are much cheaper to repair than those big plate glass ones. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 15470
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 7:49 pm: |
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I notice in this discussion, some are concerned with adults, comfort, i.e. the ability to let their hair down, and some are concerned with the kids' wellbeing. No wonder we can't agree on what the rules should be!
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MSO55
Citizen
Username: Mso55
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 12:26 am: |
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Your kids are gonna be around and experience alcohol plenty when they get to high school wether you take them to bars or not.  |
Lord Pabulum
Citizen
Username: Lord_pabulum
Post Number: 66
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 2:08 pm: |
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I don’t mind children at the bar as long as they behave. I sometimes let my child sit at the bar providing it’s not crowded and it’s before 6pm. and she pays my tab |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 2412
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 8:47 pm: |
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Last week, my kid and I ended up eating at a seedy bar in the Poconos and we had a great time. We went to go to the resturant next door, but it was closed and the bartender was very friendly and said he could make us whatever we wanted. Since it was late at night and I did not know where else to go I decided to just consider it an adventure. My 10 year old just climbed right up on those tall stools and hunched over the counter like he'd been doing it his whole life.
They claimed to have "The best wings in the Poconos" and they were better than the Gate or O'Reilly's. Some of the guys there were a bit sullen and looking into their beer mugs, but by the time we left my kid was on a first name basis with the bartender and a few of his closest buddies.
He wanted to go back on another night, and it ended up being the best place we ate at during the whole vacation. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 927
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 9:25 pm: |
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nan, you should never have been allowed to do that. There should be a law against it.
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red
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 6925
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 1, 2006 - 8:28 pm: |
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I was thinking of y'all when we were on vacation in Rhode Island. Hubby and I enjoying the nice view of the ocean at one of our favorite bars, while the kids bellied up to the video games..... |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5846
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 1, 2006 - 10:50 pm: |
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When I was growing up, on occasion -- and it was always at lunch -- I was allowed to have lunch and a soda at the bar with my dad or grandfather, sometimes joined by mom too. It was something I'll never forget and it was wonderful.
That being said, I was never afforded that opportunity in the evenings, and the reason for it was because of the subject matter and language that I'd have invariably encountered. My parents were dead set against it. I am now the same way. It's not appropriate.
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argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 928
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 5, 2006 - 11:18 am: |
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It should not have been something for your parents to decide, or for you to decide. There should have been, and should be, a law against it. Fines and/or imprisonment for violations thereof.
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drewdix
Citizen
Username: Drewdix
Post Number: 1223
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 6, 2006 - 10:55 am: |
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I think it's fine if you pick your spots- in the family oriented burbs. I somehow feel different about NYC, for instance.
But out here, as a long time (ex) bartender, I see it from their perpective- taking up a stool at 8pm with your 5 year old having a Shirley Temple is nuts- indeed not appropriate, and a drain on the tip jar.
But I will take my kid(s) to, say, O'Reilly's very early, when noone is there, get a burger for them at the bar, and split. They love it. I would never occupy stools with my kids with any crowd in the place, for many of the aforementioned reasons.
basic rule for me is, navigate the off hours (I do know how to do this) and always yield to adults.
And it goes without saying- always, always ask if it's OK with the place. |
Stuart0628
Citizen
Username: Stuart0628
Post Number: 331
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 6, 2006 - 12:03 pm: |
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For better and worse, what passed for normal parental behavior in the 1960s will get DYFS called on you now.
When I was growing up, I lived one town over from my grandparents, who owned a small department store in this small Hudson Valley town. Many a time my mom had errands or doctor's appointments she could not bring me along on, so after nursery school or kindergarten, she would drop me off at my grandfather's store.
At 4:00, my grandfather would always go next door to the neighborhood tavern to have a couple of Rheingolds and trade jokes and gossip with the other local merchants. And that was whether he was babysitting me or not! He's bring me in, sit me at a table with a bowl of pretzels or cheese cubes. The bartender would pour me a shot glass of Rheingold--the perfect size for a 4-year-old.
(Aside: When you bring your 4-year old grandson into the friendly neighborhood bar, you don't have to pay for the first round of beers. When you bring your 4-year-old grandson into the friendly neighborhood bar and start peppering him with arithmetic questions to entertain the other patrons, you don't have to pay for the second round, either.)
Fast forward to my college years, when I was allowed to drink in NJ before age 21. My friends and I would have a beer or two every now and then, with just an occasional beer pong game. No drunk driving. No bacchinalian hook-ups. This is in sharp contrast to the current environment, where alcohol is illegal for the <21s, and binge drinking is a pervasive problem.
What does this all mean?
o The 00s ain't the 60s.
o But just the same, the occasional shot glass of beer/kiddush wine did not start me on the road to ruin. And it prepared me for a lifetime of responsible drinking.
My kids have not acquired a taste for alcohol yet. But please forgive me for not connipting if and when they do!
If we find ourselves in a place where alcohol is served, my job as a parent is to know which bars are kid-friendlier than others, keep an close eye and a short leash on them when in a bar environment, and to be ready to answer questions. |
