| Author | Message | ||
     Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 6037 Registered: 1-2004  |
I was surprised when I first heard about this. Now I know he said it because I am watching 60 Minutes and heard him with my own ears. NEW YORK, Aug. 24, 2006 New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, defends the slow clean-up of his city after Hurricane Katrina, commenting in an interview with CBS News National Correspondent Byron Pitts that New York City's Ground Zero has not been rebuilt yet. (CBS NEWS/60 MINUTES) Quote "You guys in New York can’t get a hole in the ground fixed and it’s five years later. So let’s be fair." Mayor Ray Nagin (CBS) Confronted by accusations that he’s taking too long to clean up his city after Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin defended himself by remarking on New York City’s failure to rebuild Ground Zero. Nagin made the remarks in an interview conducted by CBS News National Correspondent Byron Pitts which will be broadcast on 60 Minutes, Sunday, Aug. 27, at 7 p.m. EDT. On a tour of the decimated Ninth Ward, Nagin tells Pitts the city has removed most of the debris from public property and it’s mainly private land that’s still affected – areas that can’t be cleaned without the owners' permission. But when Pitts points to flood-damaged cars in the street and a house washed partially into the street, the mayor shoots back. "That’s alright. You guys in New York can’t get a hole in the ground fixed and it’s five years later. So let’s be fair." Nagin is confident New Orleans will be whole again and will even be able to withstand another hurricane of Katrina strength, pointing out that taller and stronger levees are being built. It will take time. "We’re into a five-to-seven-year build cycle … . At the end of the day, I see the city being totally rebuilt. I see us eliminating blight, still being culturally unique," Nagin says. One example of new development Nagin points to is a 68-story Trump Towers condominium complex, a project that makes some critics wary that New Orleans will lose the heritage that made it unique. "I think you are looking at basically a town that will be a playground for the rich for the next 40 years," Leonard Moore, a professor of African-American history at Louisiana State University, tells Pitts. "I look at the post-Katrina piece as a game of musical chairs….Once the music gets turned off, the white folks have a place to sit down, a place to sleep, a place for their children to go to school. We’re going back to a trailer." Nagin says he is looking out for the poor, mostly black, residents who are dispersed all over the country, some of whom are waiting to return to the city. "What I do have a problem with is some entrenched interests that are looking and salivating over certain sections of the city," Nagin says. The mayor says these interests want him to keep those poor people from coming back so they can get rich developing the land. "I don’t think that’s right," Nagin says. But before any rebuilding can take place, the clean-up and restoration of the city’s infrastructure must be complete and it will be Mayor Nagin, recently re-elected, who leads the efforts. "Should things have happened quicker? Yes. But everyone has their own style of leadership, and right now our political leader, our political father is Ray Nagin," says Oliver Thomas, New Orleans City Council president. "So for the next four years, we’re going to sink or swim with him," Thomas tells Pitts. ©MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/24/60minutes/main1933092.shtml | ||
| Bailey Citizen Username: Baileymac Post Number: 458 Registered: 3-2005 |
The scale of what happened during that disaster covers a much larger area than the disaster in NYC. It will certainly take many more years before the towers are replaced and NYC is whole again, and I'd expect that it will take many more years before New Orleans is whole again. I don't remember how long it took to finally drain the water, but it was months, and many areas still don't have water or other utilities. The planning and the financing certainly will take time to get it right, so I'm not ready to criticize the mayor yet. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 9175 Registered: 5-2001  |
The man has a point. So why is this insensitive? | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 1062 Registered: 2-2002  |
It was insensitive in the way that he said it. He could have said, "This is a difficult situtation. You and your viewers in New York City know just how difficult it can be to line up all of the resources necessary to rebuild a neighbor and city. This is my number one priority, but it will take time." (See my post on another thread about Nagin's poor communication skills.) | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 321 Registered: 3-2006  |
He's absolutely on the money. Ground Zero has been held hostage by competing interests that only seem to take interest when there's political gain to be had. Whether it's the sham "design competition", which has failed to yield a satisfactory result, "cornerstone ceremonies" that are really just glorified photo ops (or dry runs for presidential campaigning speeches), or a lack of leadership to lend clarity to the counter-productive squabbling over the memorial details, it's 5 years later without any clear signs of progress or indication of what's to come and when. It's not an environmental issue; this is more about red tape coupled with a lack of direction. It seems to me that a small number of people want credit for rebuilding/revitalizing the site, but nobody's willing to get their hands dirty in order to make it happen. A sad (and shameful) testament to bureaucracy. Nagin's had a year while NY has had five. He's perfectly entitled to point out hypocrisy. We watched Act I of Spike Lee's "When The Levees Broke" this weekend. So far, it's straight-up reporting with firsthand accounts of just how messed up things were in New Orleans. Powerful stuff - worth your time. I don't think that Nagin is being insensitive with his comments. If anything, he's calling public attention to something which should be a greater embarrassment than it is. | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 323 Registered: 3-2006 |
Listening to Nagin on yesterday's Meet The Press podcast. Hopefully he helped salvage his point: Full transcript at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14452115/ MR. RUSSERT: “A hole in the ground,” referring to the devastation left behind by September 11. Peter King, the New York congressman, had this to say. “It’s really disgraceful and shameful. ... Ground zero is sacred ground. ... To refer to it as a hole in the ground, to me, is shocking and inexcusable. ... Especially considering Mayor Nagin’s own record. I mean, when Katrina was there, he was the one who had 500 school buses under water, he’s the one who wasn’t able to evacuate his city, he’s the one who lost his composure on national television several times.” You’ve now had several days to reflect on this. Will you apologize for calling what many believe is sacred ground, the place where thousands of Americans died, as a hole in the ground? MR. NAGIN: You know, Tim, let me make sure that you understand the context of that discussion. You know, “60 Minutes,” we did that piece about two months ago, and I got a very direct e-mail from them saying that I shouldn’t do this interview because they thought they had an exclusive two months ago. Then we started to see all these promos and what have you. The context of that discussion was about why has it taken so long for New Orleans to get back up to speed, and I was mainly using the comparison of the site. And I should have probably called it an undeveloped site as of yet. But I used the—a term that seemed to have gotten some people upset. But I think once people see the “60 Minutes” piece in its entirety, I think they’ll, they’ll calm down a little bit. I meant no disrespect for anyone. I have seen death, I’ve seen the destruction, and I was just using it as a comparison to show how difficult it is for people to rebuild after a major disaster. MR. RUSSERT: But you are sorry for the families who lost loved ones on that ground, who... MR. NAGIN: Absolutely. I’m—Tim, I am... MR. RUSSERT: They believe it’s sacred ground, not a hole in the ground. MR. NAGIN: I—Tim, I am very sorry for that because I have seen death in my own city. And New York and New Orleans has a special relationship. After 9/11, we sent trucks, we sent resources, we sent food. We prayed for New York. When we had Katrina, they reciprocated. So I understand what they’ve gone through, and I hope they understand that—what we’ve gone through. Eighty percent of our city has been damaged and we are struggling with this disaster and it never goes away. MR. RUSSERT: You wish you had used other words? MR. NAGIN: Yeah, I wish I would have basically said that it was an undeveloped site, which it is. And you know, I’ve gotten some calls from New York, as I said. You know, no one has really said this and really pointed us to the fact that it’s five years after the fact. So maybe this will help us refocus on this because there needs to be a memorial to make sure that we treat that site with the respect it deserves. | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 8199 Registered: 5-2001 |
I don't think you can compare the two. There are vested interests in NYC who consider the World Trade Center site to be sacred land and don't want to see anything built there. Though few people say this, there is also a segment which holds the belief that since the WTC was bombed twice, rebuilding at that location would just invite a third attack. Still others, who do not necessarily share either of the above two positions, feel that the WTC site makes a stronger statement in its present state of undevelopment than it would make if new structures were to be placed on the site. In the five years since the World Trade Center attack, the stretch of lower Manhattan surrounding the WTC site has made a resurgence and more is in the works with or without WTC redevelopment. New Orleans is a different story. Here we are talking about an entire city, a city whose population to a large extent has entered a diaspora because their homes became unliveable for so long (and I am using the term "homes" in a very general sense to include far more than residences). Rebuilding an entire city, especially when the choice is made to use imported labor rather than employing locals who lost their livlihood to the flood waters, is a far more daunting task than rebuilding the WTC or an equivalent on a few square blocks of land; but here, with the possible exception of the 9th Ward, everyone agrees that the city should be rebuilt. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1876 Registered: 9-2004  |
I agree with the others that it was NOT an insensitive remark. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of folks who feel the same way. GREED vs. POWER has held the project at Ground Zero hostage. SHAME on the developer and politicians involved. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 9181 Registered: 5-2001 |
Unfortunately, I don't believe that any of the players with the loudest voices and the most press re: WTC are concerned with the memory of those who lost their lives there. | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 4365 Registered: 12-2004  |
I see it as insensitive because he referred to it as a "hole in the ground." As already stated, it is more like "sacred ground" where a couple thousand people died a horrible and violent death at the hands of terrorists. No amount of backpedalling on the part of Mayor Nagin will change the fact of the initial insensitivity of the remark. The first time I saw the exerpt on television, it literally took my breath away. | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 324 Registered: 3-2006 |
I understand how you feel, but he's not really backpedalling. He stands by his point - that people shouldn't be so quick to criticize slow progress in New Orleans after a year, while the same people aren't so vocal about 5 years' worth of indecision at Ground Zero. He apologized for his word choice, but his point seems fair to me. He tried to clarify what he meant:
Unfortunately, the original excerpt sensationalizes his word choice (to the point where it's actually a topic of discussion on a news program). There seems to be a trend to focus on specific words in order to distract from the greater issue at hand (e.g., "Flip flop", "Cut and Run", etc.). Mayor Nagin is far from perfect (he could try to better temper his emotions when speaking publically), but he raised a valid point. "Hole in the ground" can be viewed as harsh and disrespectful, but is the water-treading reality of the past five years that much better? | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1877 Registered: 9-2004 |
DITTO Project 37! | ||
| pcs81632 Citizen Username: Pcs81632 Post Number: 130 Registered: 6-2002  |
I thought Americans embraced a plain spoken man, like the President of the United States. So why is Nagin different? I agree that 'hole in the ground' is blunt. But why is 7 WTC open for business and the developers and politicians haven't been able to move on the main WTC site? Now, the developer for both sites is the same, so the problem must be the politicians. Pataki and Bloomberg should be ashamed of themselves. And George W. Bush, the plain spoken-everyman, should be ashamed of the way he treated, and continues to treat, New Orleans. | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 4395 Registered: 12-2004 |
pcs, didn't you hear, Dubya's on his way to spend some quality time with the folks in N.O.! Pretty laughable when you consider he couldn't find his way there for days after the actual event! | ||
| combustion Citizen Username: Spontaneous Post Number: 466 Registered: 4-2006  |
His comparison wasn't disrespectful, but his choice of words was. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 6042 Registered: 1-2004 |
I think his remarks were insensitive becaue the families of 9.11 have nothing to do with how fast or slow progress is. Perhaps it would have been better to compare New Orleans to Florida, or any place with hurricane damage -even the Jersey Shore. But instead of responding to the question with an answer, he responds by mocking the worst terrosit attack in American history. It would have been less offensive if he had expressed his frustration in getting the needed funds from the government to rebuild. I'm not sure it's even smart to rebuilt some parts. Same as I don't think parts of the Jersey Shore should be rebuilt. I'm guessing he realized his remarks were insensitive because he apologized. He's also made some other (not 9.11 related) 'questionable' statements. The man is a poor leader and he should be replaced. Here's the article from yesterday's Star Ledger Mayor Nagin sorry for calling WTC site 'hole in the ground' Monday, August 28, 2006 Associated Press NEW YORK -- New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin says he's sorry he used the term "hole in the ground" to describe the World Trade Center site. "I wish I would have basically said that it was an undeveloped site, which it is," he said yesterday on NBC's "Meet the Press" show. Nagin had criticized efforts to redevelop the World Trade Center site following the Sept. 11 attacks when confronted in a CBS television interview about delays in rebuilding his city after Hurricane Katrina. During the "60 Minutes" interview, a correspondent pointed out flood-damaged cars still on the streets of New Orleans' devastated Ninth Ward. Nagin replied, "You guys in New York can't get a hole in the ground fixed, and it's five years later. So let's be fair," according to CBS. The "60 Minutes" interview was scheduled to air last night. Text and a video clip from it were posted on CBS' Web site Thursday. Nagin told NBC he didn't mean to offend anyone. "I meant no disrespect for anyone," he said. "I have seen death, I have seen the destruction, and I was just using it as a comparison to show how difficult it is for people to rebuild after a major disaster." He said he was sorry to the families of those who died on Sept. 11, 2001, and believes the World Trade Center site is sacred ground. The chairman of the Lower Manhattan Development Corp., the agency created to oversee the rebuilding of the World Trade Center site and downtown Manhattan, said Thursday that tremendous progress has been made in Lower Manhattan, with the Freedom Tower, a transportation hub and a memorial to the nearly 3,000 victims under construction. Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco on Friday distanced herself from Nagin's disparaging comment and publicly thanked New Yorkers for their help after Hurricane Katrina. Nagin, known for his blunt style, is not the first to compare the two cities. New Orleans residents frequently complain that the federal government's response after Katrina has been far more sluggish than it was after the Sept. 11 attacks. http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1156743178272770.xml?starledger? nnj&coll=1 | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5667 Registered: 5-2001 |
Well the WTC is a total embarrassment already. Some New York politician needs to stand up and say that it is not acceptable that, five years after the fact, this is still a hole in the ground. And it is a hole in the ground. Just go look at it and see. | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 337 Registered: 3-2006 |
How did he mock the attack? Nobody would do that. He mocked the bureaucracy and squabbling that has stalled the rebuilding effort in downtown Manhattan. His answer during the 60 Minutes segment highlighted that leadership problems and slow response aren't just limited to New Orleans. He didn't avoid the question at all: If we're willing to be okay with the slow progress in NYC after five years, then we should already be sympathetic to slow progress in New Orleans after only one year. That's his point, which seems fair to me (blunt or not). But nobody seems to want to hear or consider that very important point. People are too quick to focus their attention on criticizing an admittedly poor word choice. There's a bigger issue to consider besides the perceived insensitivity of one random government official. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1879 Registered: 9-2004 |
People are too quick to focus their attention on criticizing an admittedly poor word choice. There's a bigger issue to consider besides the perceived insensitivity of one random government official. AMEN!  | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 2563 Registered: 10-2001  |
His choice of words may or may not be insensitive, ignorant yes, but what else should you expect from someone whose leadership skills are questionable at best. He sounded like a defensive child with that response and he didn't answer the question. If he did he would have said that bureaucracy and squabbling have hobbled the rebuilding effort in New Orleans, but he chose to answer snidely and take a swipe at NYC. Thankfully his already bad reputation took another (well deserved)hit. Why are people surprised especially after his "chocolate city" comments? He deserves the criticism he receives as the reponsibility for many of the deaths in N.O. lies directly at his feet. | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 338 Registered: 3-2006 |
Whoa. Nagin is far from perfect, but you want to lay blame and bring up "questionable at best" leadership skills and defensive children, don't limit it to just *his* feet.  | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1880 Registered: 9-2004 |
He deserves the criticism he receives as the reponsibility for many of the deaths in N.O. lies directly at his feet. I am NOT a Nagin fan, but that is the most ignorant answer I've heard thus far. Blame is ALL AROUND from Local, State and our Federal Government! People did not die from the hurricane itself, but from the levees that broke and flooded that city. The feds did not give a damn about funding and developing a better system of those levees. Also, Bush slashed the funding for levee projects. Our fact-checking confirms that Bush indeed cut funding for projects specifically designed to strengthen levees. Indeed, local officials had been complaining about that for years. …By 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004,the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year…forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. http://www.factcheck.org/article344.html Here is a fact sheet from the Army Corps of Engineers http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/response/HURPROJ.asp?prj=lkpon1 Here’s an excerpt “FY 2005 BUDGET/EFFORT. The President’s budget for fiscal year 2005 was $3.9 million. Congress increased it to $5.5 million. This was insufficient to fund new construction contracts. Engineering design, and construction supervision and inspection efforts are also included. Seven contracts are being delayed due to lack funds.” | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1847 Registered: 7-2005  |
ooo snap. Any comments on Professor Moore's statement? "I think you are looking at basically a town that will be a playground for the rich for the next 40 years," Leonard Moore, a professor of African-American history at Louisiana State University, tells Pitts. "I look at the post-Katrina piece as a game of musical chairs….Once the music gets turned off, the white folks have a place to sit down, a place to sleep, a place for their children to go to school. We’re going back to a trailer." Right-on, Moore. Right-on. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 755 Registered: 7-2003 |
Very good points Phenix & Glock. Especially your point about the levees Phenix. So many people think Hurricane Katrina did the damage. But if you take a look at Spike Lee's documentary (airing tonight again at 8 on HBO), you'll see the damage had a big impact on poor whites as well. | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 2564 Registered: 10-2001 |
"Also, Bush slashed the funding for levee projects." Pure BS because even if the Army Corps of Engineers got everything on their "wish list" the levees would have been designed to withstand a category 3 hurricane, not a 4 or 5. In fact read the article below to see how the Army Corps of Engineers stated that a levee system to withstand a category 5 storm was 25 years away from completion. The article was written in 2004. Also note that in the article a previous attempt at redesigning the flood control system was stopped due to a lawsuit filed by an environmental group. http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/Riverside/Sept-Oct_04_Riv.pdf Oh wise phenix, please tell me how blaming Nagin for many of the deaths is the most ignorant answer (answer to what I'm not sure since I was not answering a question) you've ever heard. While there is plenty of blame to go around and that includes the current administration much of the blame should lie at the feet of the local government. They had a shoddy disaster plan and they failed to implement it. Now if you want to criticize the current administration for their lack of response I'm right there with you. However, Nagin received a warning from the National Hurricane Center in Florida telling him that Katrina was going to be a massive storm. Yet he still waited nearly 12 hours before calling for mandatory evacuations. How many lives would have been saved if people had been evacuated? How many lives would have been saved if the people were bussed out of the city on busses that wound up sitting in a flooded parking lot? http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/09/11/chronology_of_errors_how_a _disaster_spread/ Please get over your hatred of GWB. There is plenty of criticism to go around but ultimately the delayed decision to evacuate should haunt Nagin and Blanco and had nothing to do with the administration. "ooo snap" Who says that any more? That's so ten years ago. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1854 Registered: 7-2005 |
Who cares? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1995 Registered: 10-2004  |
sportsnut did you know that the hurricane did not hit NO directly. The cat 5 force was inland in Florida. All NO got was a category 3. The levees broke because they were poorly designed, built, and maintained. There was little funding allocated to these levees initially and what little there was got slashed repeatedly. The irony of the situation is that the slashing occured due to the enormous expenditure required of us in Iraq. So the answer to the question about who sacrificed for the war in Iraq, it appears to be the citizens of NO. | ||
| pcs81632 Citizen Username: Pcs81632 Post Number: 132 Registered: 6-2002 |
Meandtheboys, I was in NO for Katrina, stranded at a hotel with no way out of town, so I have particular feelings about W's attitude towards that city. Supporters of his can stand on their heads until the second coming if Christ and I will always believe that he, and his administration, left that city to drown. I saw the faces. But you can't really blame W, can you? He did a 30,000 foot flyover, and was photographed looking out the window of Air Force One, in his presidential blue windbreaker, looking so very concerned. It almost looked like he knew what he was looking at. We all know better now. A year ago tonight, I heard a boy say in the pitch black of Canal Street, 'Nawlins ain't never gonna be the same again.' As I waited for the next FEMA bus, I heard a grandfather say to his granddaughter, 'Don't worry honey, you'll be back home in a few weeks and I'll see you then.' This Friday is the 1 year anniversary when I got home to Maplewood, after the 11 hour bus ride to Dallas. When I got to Dallas, I saw the first videos of the dead bodies left on the streets. What a disgrace for this country. I've always said, I was fortunate, I had a place to go. Many I rode out of town with had nothing to go back to. And I often think of that little boy and that little girl. | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 4441 Registered: 12-2004 |
I wasn't there and I was--and continue to be--utterly horrified by the whole affair. So, I can only imagine what one must feel having been there. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6650 Registered: 5-2001  |
I understand Nagin's context, but not the way he said it. No one refers to New Orleans as some "hole in the ground". It is so difficult to decide what to do with this bit of land in NYC where so many thousands of innocent loved ones were intentionally and senselessly murdered on 9/11. It wasn't a random act of nature. Not as much incompetence is involved in the 9/11 decision process of what to do with this area as with NO, just tremendous hesitancy due to enormous sensitivities, which hinders the politics machines in new ways we haven't seen yet. Here's just one excerpt: "I am a priest who was volunteering in New York City as a chaplain at Ground Zero and the City Morgue in early February when Paul Keating's remains were found. I am a priest of Chicago, but lived in Manhattan for a short time during my serminary training -- long enough that the city had become a part of me, and that I needed to be there to lend at least a little help. I cannot contribute anything about the story of Paul Keating's life, except a small part of the story of how it ended. My shift had ended and I was planning to leave that day, but I was the only chaplain there at the time, and something kept me hanging around. Soon I was glad I did, as word spread that the remains of a firefighter had been found. It was unusual at that late date to find remains that could be quickly identified, but Paul Keating's were found with his gear and identification fairly intact. From the place where he fell, it appeared Mr. Keating nearly escaped. Working inside the second tower in the performance of his duty as long as possible, he finally decided to leave, and made it out of the lobby. But it seems that he waited a little too long before trying to save himself. Already, there was too much debris falling from the surrounding buildings, and Mr. Keating was struck down. When his remains were brought to the City Morgue, I had thought that, by that time, the people there would have seen so much of this that any ceremony would be quick, routine and perfunctory. I was mistaken. There may be little that can bring comfort to his family, but I hope they take some small comfort in knowing that their fallen hero was treated with honor, respect, dignity and compassion in those moments. All the morgue personnel on duty stopped their work and filed out; all the police on duty gathered at attention, and his brother firefighters, who had carried his remains in honor through the city on a fire truck, formed a line and stood at attention. As I looked around me at the faces of the men and women who stood silently in the fading winter light, I saw not routine but genuine sorrow, not hopelessness but grim determination. His remains were honored by beiong covered with the American flag. I stepped forward at the appropriate moment, laid my hands in blessing upon on the remains and prayed silently that God would accept this fallen servant to his kingdom of eternal happiness. Then his remains were brought into the morgue for complete identification. Since then, Paul Keating has been in my prayers. I don't know if he was Catholic, but I have offered Mass in his memory. I don't know his family, but they are in my prayers as well. May God bless him, and them, and may God bless and defend us all. Fr. Arthur Olsen | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6651 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul was found in the in one of the the revolving doors with the bodies of several civilians that he was helping to safety. Not in some "hole in the ground". | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1950 Registered: 10-2005  |
I just got done listening to Nagin on the latest "Meet the Press" podcast on the train ride home last night. He sounded like someone who has done his homework only AFTER failing the test miserably the first time around. My heart does go out to the citizens of NO, but it blows my mind that Nagin was voted back in. Blaming everyone else for his incompetence and throwing hissyfits on national TV is not my idea of leadership. But democracy spoke and I respect the decision. NO deserves what they got (Nagin). I won't break his chops too much on his "hole in the ground" comment. I think he opened his mouth without thinking it through, but in some respects he is right. The politics engulfing the WTC site is shameful with rebuilding be held up over the Memorial. Can't they set some room aside for the latter and work out the memorial details later and start building the rest in the interim? To answer PCS 81632 question about WTC 7, the reason it was built so quickly was because of the lack of bureacacy BUT also because it contains a main hub for ConEd and Verizon (who also kicked in money) so it had to be built and built quickly. Of course you won't here about this in the media, it would rob Silverstein's glory.... Hoops-do you ever stop to think in the middle of all your Bush hatred that if the levees were such an issue pre-Katrina why the country is only hearing about it after they failed? I don't recall ever hearing it be any issue from an LA Senator/Congressman, do you? Sportsnuts-yes, isn't this Bush hatred just getting ridiculous? Any comment/criticism is met with with "But Bush, But Bush...." I am really expecting to see this hatred labelled as a mental disease in the medical dictionary 10 years from now. Glock-your last post, who was it in response to, hopefully not bklyntonj? Sure sounds like it is... -SLK | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1881 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hoops-do you ever stop to think in the middle of all your Bush hatred that if the levees were such an issue pre-Katrina why the country is only hearing about it after they failed? I don't recall ever hearing it be any issue from an LA Senator/Congressman, do you? DUH… Unless you LIVE in NO and in government. I was in NO a couple of weeks before Katrina hit and while on a tour we were told about the levees on how much it can withstand from a hurricane. They continue to tell us about the under-funding to IMPROVE the levees and how if a category 5 hit NO may be doomed. How prophetic! Two weeks later it happens. It’s not hatred, it’s FACTS! So don't even go there. How many other facts that we DO NOT know that surrounds us? And yes, that IDIOT of a president again ADMITTED yesterday his failure of the Katrina demise. Took him how many days to actually set foot in NO? And you call this LEADERSHIP? I guess he wouldn't be caught dead amongst the stranded and the starving. Not his style. Bush admits mistakes made http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_T ype1&c=Article&cid=1156888230929&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724 “ Waitress Joyce Labruzzo sought to shake Bush's hand and said to him, "Mr. President, are you going to turn your back on me?" "No ma'am," Bush replied. "Not again." Finishing a two-day trip to Louisiana and Mississippi communities that were devastated by the storm on Aug. 29, 2005, Bush also acknowledged that his administration's response to the disaster was unacceptable.” The devastation of NO you would *think* you were viewing a Third World Nation, not a city in our United States. This is probably ONE of the downfall in this IDIOTS legacy, besides Iraq. sportnut & SLK, Just look at how many republicans leaders are DISTANCING themselves from GWB today. So don't even start with this "hatred" nonsense. The guy is incompetent and is lacking in leadership. The majority of the American public is growing TIRED of GWB. bklyntonj, Spike did an EXCELLENT job on his documentary. Bill Maher interviewed him on his show and Spike did mention it was NOT only Blacks who were devastated by Katrina, but Whites also. He made it a point to tell their VIEWS, experience and opinions of this devastation. Again, GREAT documentary. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 2006 Registered: 10-2004 |
Phenix -  slk - Phenix said it all for me. But heres a little bit more for you - http://www.alternet.org/story/24871
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| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1883 Registered: 9-2004 |
Read about REAL leadership after a disaster here and what LBJ did after hurricane Betsy: http://www.semp.us/biots/biot_327.html  In a somewhat impulsive, questionably dangerous, and rather extraordinary politically-driven decision, then President Lyndon Johnson flew Air Force One to New Orleans to view the destruction first hand only three hours after being asked to do so by Senator Russell Long of Louisiana and just one day after Betsy’s landfall. Indeed, Betsy was still blowing around Baton Rouge, Louisiana, preventing the President from going up there for a look see, as he had planned. ACTUAL TRANSCRIPT FROM INITIAL TRANSCRIPT: Senator Russell Long: . . . Ed [Willis], pick up. Mr. President, I’ve got Ed Willis here. He’s my congressman from the Third District. Mr. President, aside from the Great Lakes, the biggest lake in America is Lake Pontchartrain. It is now drained dry. That Hurricane Betsy picked the lake up and put it inside New Orleans and Jefferson Parish and the Third [Congressional] District. Now, you have . . . If I do say it, our people are just like . . . It’s like my home—The whole damn home’s been destroyed, but that’s all right. My wife and kids are still alive, so it’s OK. Mr. President, we have really had it down there, and we need your help. President Johnson: All right. You got it. According to text available in the LBJ Library, “[A] few minutes after talking to Senator Russell Long, Johnson made arrangements for a trip to New Orleans with Buford Ellington, the Director of the Office of Emergency Planning. Ellington, an old friend of Johnson and former governor of Tennessee had been in the job since March, 1965 and had played a vital role in Johnson’s handling of problems related to the Selma-to-Montgomery [civil rights] march. At the time of the call, no deaths had been reported. The death toll would ultimately be 74, with most of those from New Orleans.” The members of the Presidential party had seen from the air a previews [sic] of the city—water over? of the city up to the eaves of the homes, etc….and extensive [sic] damage to the harbors, etc. At this point, the party would move in to the city to see for first hand just how much damage had actually occurred. [sic] The motorcade departed the airport—and the President and party motored into the City proper. At this point [5:40 p.m.], the motorcade stopped, though the President did not get out of the car. Two schools were located on both sides of the street—that were being used as refugee centers. The motorcade stopped again on a bridge and this time [sic] did depart from the limousine. The press scourged [sic] around the President and members of his party as they looked over both sides of the bridge below at the water that had engulfed the neighborhoods. People were walking along the bridge where they had disembarked from the boats that had brought them to dry land. Many of the people were carrying the barest of their possessions and many of them had been sitting on top of their houses waiting for rescue squads to retrieve the families and carry them to dry land—and to food and water. “The President stopped and talked w/some of them—among them a gentleman by the name of William Marshall—a 74 year old Negro man. The President asked him how he was and they chatted for while [sic]—the man leaving the President saying—“God bless you, Mr. President—God ever bless you.” The motorcade soon departed and returned into the city…enroute stopping at Washington High School on St. Claude’s Avenue. The President again left his car and walked into the building that was being used as a refugee center. Most of the people inside and outside of the building were Negro. At first, they did not believe [sic] that it was actually the President. He walked up steps leading in to the school and the only light was that of a few flashlights lighting the way for him." | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1955 Registered: 10-2005 |
Wow, Phenixrising used "real leadership" and LBJ in the same sentence.... so that means he is excusing the ex-president with his handling of Vietnam but not the current President for Iraq... | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 2017 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh Mr. SLK you are a slick one indeed. I think there is no mention of Vietnam and LBJ because it is not germaine. The parallel between Katrinas aftermath and Betseys speaks for itself. One president takes an immediate trip to see for himself and to pitch in, without photo-op. The other president only reluctantly goes down to NO and then only for a photo-op and a speech of broken promises. There are plenty of levels that you can compare those 2 presidents wars ie Vietnam to Iraq, but I dont know why you would choose a thread about Katrina to do so. | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1958 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hoops- See my last post and try again...no cigar... -SLK | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1885 Registered: 9-2004 |
Ahhh… SLK, We ARE talking about a natural disaster and the leadership SKILLS in the aftermath. Lets' see, Bush made HIS appearance after all the displace folks of NO were shipped out. “after the storm struck and the levees broke, the president seemed reluctant to leave vacation mode. We saw an impassive president gazing out a window on Air Force One, thousands of feet above the devastation.” Soon the world saw thousands of human beings marooned and bereft in New Orleans and elsewhere. Deep doubts shrouded government at all levels, not sparing the White House. Congressional hearings were held that pounded presidential minions from Homeland Security and the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).” photo opt  Appointed an Equestarian fool to run FEMA with no knowledge or experience. “FEMA requires strong leadership and experience because state and local governments rely on them," said Trina Sheets, executive director of the National Emergency Management Association. "When you don't have trained, qualified people in those positions, the program suffers as a whole.” And we sure saw the suffering alright. The WORLD saw the suffering indeed. | ||
| Flimbro Citizen Username: Flimbro Post Number: 47 Registered: 6-2005 |
I spent considerable time in New Orleans post Katrina and I don’t think comparing the WTC and the devastation wreaked by slipshod levees is realistic. They are few similarities. Allowing news pundits to create an "event" out of a sentence uttered by Ray Nagin is idiotic. It is a diversion from the real issue, which is that an American city is in ruins because of decades of neglect and at least one week of glaring indifference. The long standing neglect is the fault of Nagin and Blanco and their predecessors dating back at least 40 years and the week of neglect belongs to Bush and his flacks. No one who stands on the ground in New Orleans would suggest that the task of rebuilding the city belongs to one man. The destruction is boundless. Besides the physical destruction, there is the lack of an infrastructure. After the towers fell I was still able to go to the bodega and buy bread and light bulbs. After the towers fell buses ran and streetlights came on and subways traversed the boroughs. I could still drive across the Brooklyn Bridge and my street was still marked by a street sign. My neighbor's kids went back to school, my wife went back to work and life outside of downtown Manhattan came back to life-slowly. We were dazed, scared and bruised but we were back to business. New York is influential and rich. New Orleans is a different story. They still lack street lights and makeshift stop signs dot city streets, skeletons still hide in unsearched houses and piles of debris still exist where neighborhoods used to flourish. The majority of public schools have not opened for lack of children, families and a tax base. New Orleans was a poor city holding on by it's fingertips before Katrina and now it is a poor city asking for "assistance" from the same people who ignored it in the first place. There are people in New Orleans paying mortgages on homes that no longer exist, meanwhile they live in ramshackle FEMA trailers if they are lucky enough to have them. There are longstanding homeowners who when they returned to the neighborhood found that their property had been bulldozed and carted away- leaving them with nothing. There are others who just can't go back fearful of what they'll find and still others who just can't afford the return trip. Forget about LBJ- who cares. Concentrate on the current administration. Why waste time bemoaning the fact that Bush was slow to react. That's a fact and now it's history- get out in front of the situation. What's happening in New Orleans is immediate and in need of our attention right now. If you can give time- do that. If you can give money- send it. Just do something. | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1959 Registered: 10-2005 |
Phenixrising- Judging by your moniker, I am sure you have a beef with Dubya on Iraq as well, who are you kidding? Also, judging by your moniker, your deep-seeded hatred of the man borders on obsession. What, your company health plan don't cover trips to the shrink? -SLK | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1960 Registered: 10-2005 |
Flimbro- Great post! Thank you for an OBJECTIVE viewpoint on this issue rather then the usual subgrade intellectualism usually found on MOL. -SLK | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 345 Registered: 3-2006 |
SLK - Stop trying to change the goalposts. Phenix and Hoops didn't fall for your less-than-subtle "libs only want to bash Bush" trap. This thread isn't about Iraq. Flimbro - Congratulations on a well-written and thought-provoking post. Some good points there. | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1963 Registered: 10-2005 |
Project 37- Fine, but both are guilty of the "yeah Nagin and Blanco suck BUT Bush Bush Bush Bush blah blah blah..." flim-flam. That is why i am suspicious. Can you blame me? -SLK | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2350 Registered: 3-2004 |
SLK: Part of the problem is the level of corruption, cronyism, and low competence that has existed in New Orleans and Louisiana in general since before the time of Huey Long. That certainly didn't help matters because it allowed people like Nagin, Landrieu, and Blanco to get and keep power and use it stupidly. That being said, the level of non-responsiveness, lack of preparation and inability to execute by the current White House during and after Katrina reaches the height of cynicism and no-can-do incompetence. | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 347 Registered: 3-2006 |
I read it as, "Nagin isn't so great, but why are we making an issue out of his word choice when there are more important things to consider?" One bigger issue in this case being Katrina-related government response and assistance during the aftermath. When it comes to Katrina, our president didn't do himself any favors. The nature of his response was genuinely puzzling to many people. Flimbro's post calls attention to the issues that don't get reported as frequently. Where is the long-term support and who is responsible for providing it? Nagin's made some really wacky statements, but whether it's "chocolate cities" or brownies that "do a heckuva job", the bottom line is still the same: It doesn't seem immediately logical to freely criticize a slow rate of redevelopment in New Orleans after one year while seeming to tolerate the comparably slow rate of redevelopment that followed another recent large-scale domestic tragedy. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12536 Registered: 5-2001 |
Whatever his faults, and they were legion, LBJ was a master politician and I think he had genuine compasion for all the citizens in the country. He was asked by an influencial senator to go to New Orleans and he did. I don't know if there was significant danger in going there or not. As I have said about Clinton and it is also true of Johnson, the man had a fine sense of history. Nagin has a history of putting his foot in his mouth. This is another example of this. He does, however, have a point. We still are looking at a hole in the ground almost five years after 911. Nagin has a lot of different groups he has to please, as do Pataki and . In the end, at least so far, he hasn't pleased any of them. We live in a federal republic. A lot of authority is vested in state and local government. I saw the Coastie admiral who is the Federal "Czar" and coordinator for Katrina on TV last night. I am sure he is more than compedent, but really the Feds should have someone there who can use the "bully pulpit" more effectively. In the absence of someone like Rudy G or Bill Clinton, my choice would be Lt. General Honore (sp?) the rough as a cob, plain spoken butt kicker who finally relieved the convention center. He also has the advantage of being a local boy from the bayous. It would probably be ugly, but entertaining and maybe effective. Somebody has to get the buearucrats, both federal and local off the dime.  | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1886 Registered: 9-2004 |
Flimbro, Excellent post! Project 37, Innisowen, Hoops and Bob K SLK, I will NOT dignify a response with your CHEAP remark. | ||
| pcs81632 Citizen Username: Pcs81632 Post Number: 133 Registered: 6-2002 |
SLK, The only area of government with the resources to meet a challenge like a coastal hurricane, a California earthquake, or a midwest flood is the Federal Government. Especially since the state's resources, as far as National Guard, is so depleted. Katrina hit Sunday night into Monday morning, and from my view of Canal Street on the 27th Floor of the Sheraton Hotel (which, believe me, I was glued to) there was no military presence until Tuesday evening. And that was the Lousiana National Guard, Federal reosurces didn't arrive until the weekend folowing the storm. Nagin deserves blame (and I cannot believe they voted him back in), and Blanco deserves blame (and I think she's a petty, self serving politician), but the Federal Government deserves special blame. They claim to have prepositioned assets in Mississippi and were rescuing people during the storm. Where were they in Louisiana? The President's man on the ground was Heckuva Job Brownie, and now, a year later, he says there was no plan. I hope George W. Bush lives a long, long life. Just so he can see his 'legacy' consigned to history's ashpile. | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1973 Registered: 10-2005 |
PR (you are now dubbed since your full screen name is annoying to type)- Cheap? Looking at your moniker reminds me of Will Hunting looking upon Professor Sean Maguire's office painting in the flick "Good Will Hunting." Your effort alone is creepy... -SLK |
