| Author | Message | ||
     notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3797 Registered: 5-2001  |
Couldn't sleep, so I went online and decided to check out movie trailers on the Apple Quicktime site. Now I'll never fall asleep! This would be a lot less scary if it was fiction... http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/ | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5730 Registered: 5-2001 |
You know, I really think these people can be reached. One thing they have in common with we liberals is compassion. And if we can just get the subject off of abortion and school prayer, and onto hunger, healthcare, housing, peace, social justice and all the other things that Jesus himself would be focussing on, they will be pried away from the GOP by the millions. The GOP's prestidigitation the last twenty-plus years has evangelicals believing that they really are on their side. But the veil is lifting and people are going to see that the values issues the GOP stresses -- and gets absolutely no results on -- are not the ones that are important to real people in the real world anyway. The Democrats are the next values party -- the values we've stood for since 1933. | ||
| Señor Moment © Citizen Username: Howardt Post Number: 2464 Registered: 11-2004  |
Oy vay... | ||
| mwoodwalk Citizen Username: Mwoodwalk Post Number: 579 Registered: 9-2001 |
Didn't find anything scary about it. I think those of you who do ought to re-examine your own biases and assumptions about the people depicted. For instance, nowhere in that trailer did I see any hateful speech, any bigotry, anything approaching vengefulness---just some passionate outspoken people. I may not choose to send my kids to camps like those depicted, but I don't believe we have anything to fear from those who do. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3799 Registered: 5-2001 |
You didn't find anything scary about it? Little kids being driven literally into paroxyms of brainwashed fervor? Being hollered at and intensely guilt-tripped on all sides into dedicating every action they undertake to preparing for the Apocalypse? That doesn't bother you? I appreciate Tom's point very much, and I think if the increasingly ubiquitous question "WWJD?" is truly the motivation for these folks, well, then they'd have a lot of common ground with liberals. But the way that some of the mothers were talking about needing to prepare a generation to combat the kids being raised in Palestine, etc., gives me a serious and, I think, well-founded case of the willies. What if they decide, as some of their more vocal representatives clearly have, that the greatest threats facing humanity today are the intermixing of races, or homosexuality, or the Jews? I'm going to have to watch the film to see if I can get a better feeling about these folks that the one I got from that trailer. | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 190 Registered: 5-2006  |
I gotta say that looks pretty nuts but I think they may be depicting the extreme. I have lived all over the country including some very red states and communities. In some of these placed I was friends with several evangelical Christians. Other than periodic proselytizing (at which point I would tell them to knock it off unless I was at their house) you would never have known it. I never saw them flying Christian flags or their kids crying in prayer or convulsing on the ground. I don’t think I ever heard them say an unkind thing about anyone. I think the worst I ever heard them say about anyone was that they would pray for them. On the other hand, in the time I have lived and worked in the New York metro area, I have heard some of the most vitriolic, hateful, things regularly said about evangelical Christians that could never be said about any other group and others just nod in approval. Yes they are compassionate but they differ sharply with Democrats on solutions to problems. They believe in the power of communities, charity, faith, and their churches – not the power of wealth redistribution and federal bureaucracies. They also view contemporary Liberalism and post-modernism as the root causes of many social problems. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5735 Registered: 5-2001 |
Well that's the thing, I think they don't really have that strong an opinion on local community vs. state vs. federal involvement. I don't think that distrust of the federal government is overwhelmingly strong, especially if it's shown that the feds can share their values. After all, they're willing to support federal-level candidates on abortion. That's necessary because Roe v. Wade made it a federal issue. But other values issues can be positioned the same way. I don't think that many people of any stripe are really concerned with where the work gets done. The strictest of constructionists will toss federalism out the window in a heartbeat if it helps to ban marijuana or assisted suicide, or limit lawsuits against corporations. Lots of groups pay lip service to federalism, but when push comes to shove they're almost all results-oriented. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 1109 Registered: 10-2005  |
My cousins are part of a small but growing movement of evangelicals who have liberal politics. Though I'll never join such an organization (short of a conversion miracle), speaking with them gives me hope that we can all get along and move our country in a truly compassionate direction. http://www.the-river.org/home.htm | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater  Post Number: 2582 Registered: 10-2004 |
Asking a 5 year old if they would give their life for Jesus? And you don't think there was anything wrong with that? DUDE, wake the heck up. | ||
| Billy Jack Citizen Username: Kendalbill Post Number: 227 Registered: 6-2002  |
Evangelicals come of many types...I think we have to be careful in how people label others. Broadly, an evangelical is someone who is committed to spreading the word of God. That's it. The New testament calls on Christians to be evangelical. That means "evangelicals" are many (or most) or your neighbors- at least in theory. I hear a whole lot of "they", and I have to wonder why. Religious conservatives, fundementalists, etc....that is a different issue. This trailer seems to dwell with the extreme, but a mainstream Methodist summer camp or an afternoon at the YMCA wouldn't be very interesting, would it? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12567 Registered: 5-2001 |
A coupled of points: 1. Billy Jack is correct. The term Evangelical is usually miwsused. Every liberals favorite protestant denomination is the United Church of Christ. These are the folks who produced "The Bouncer" commercial a couple of years ago emphasizing their inclusiveness. The ad was part of their "Still Speaking" campaign, which is aimed at bringing people into, or back to, the Christian Community. Their political side is very left wing. They are very pro Palestinian as an example. 2. I think Jewish posters should be aware that the fundementalist churches are very pro-Israel before bringing on the condemnation. A great many mainstream Protestant churches aren't. 3. If you are going to have a country with freedom of religion, you have to be able to accept points of view other than your own. We are free to believe what we want to believe, or not believe at all. Other people have the same rights. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 3173 Registered: 9-2003  |
I have to agree with Bob K. I've got a few friends who are highly committed, conservative Catholics (not the cultural or cafeteria thing), very literate, educated and philosophically pro-life from conception, stem cell research,and capital punishment, and they are anti-war. Kind of Jesuitical, really. I admire the philosophical thoroughgoingness and consistency of their belief, and the time/money they give in support of single parents, victims of disease, prisoners etc. I do not share their beliefs, but over the several decades, we've had many discussions on all points. Billy Jack's point about what evangelical means also seems pertinent here. For me, these things all look like a bit of a divide between those who are committed members of a conservative religion that has an authoritarian bent (parts of Catholic, Islamic, Jewish, whatever) v looser, more anti-authoritarian religious practice (of any creed) and agnosticism. Always seems to me odd when some will parse and defend the flavors of Islam but completely freak on more conservative Christian religious practice. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 2587 Registered: 10-2004 |
I don't care that there are "nice" flavors of Christians. I care that there were kids under the age of 10 writhing around on the floor possessed by the spirit of Jesus in that film. Creeped me out. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10705 Registered: 4-1997  |
Looks like a Stephen King movie, doesn't it? | ||
| Ligeti Man Meat Citizen Username: Ligeti Post Number: 795 Registered: 7-2002  |
There are some very kind and compassionate evangelicals. But as a movement, they are deeply suspicious and threatened by beliefs and cultures that are not exactly like their own. "Foreigners," for the most part, are just plain weird to them. "If you're not electing Christians, then in essence, you are going to legislate sin....Separating religion and politics is wrong because God is the one who chooses our rulers." Rep. (R-Florida) Katherine Harris Sure sounds like something an Islamic militant nutcase would say. Reject born again Christians and their compulsive need to control what others think. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3801 Registered: 5-2001 |
Alley - exactly. I'm sure there is a wide range of people who consider themselves evangelicals, but the ones depicted in that trailer seemed to be members of something unhealthy, cultish, and freaky. I probably should have titled this thread "The Sort Of Evangelicals Depicted In This Particular Movie Trailer Really Freak Me Out" but I was a bit hasty. It's hard to imagine little kids dancing and singing about "soldiers of God" while dressed in CAMO, for cryin' out loud, growing up to have a worldview any larger or more tolerant than a kid raised in the Taliban. One starts to wonder what Jesus would think of these folks. | ||
| Parkbench87 Citizen Username: Parkbench87 Post Number: 5414 Registered: 7-2001  |
All the information contained in the trailer is interesting but what I really need to know is whether they assemble around the camp fire at night and roast marshmallows and tell scary stories? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10706 Registered: 4-1997 |
As Woody Allen said, if Jesus came back and saw what people were doing in his name, he wouldn't stop vomiting. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15547 Registered: 1-2003  |
I think we should think carefully about what tolerance entails. Just because someone's practices are creepy to us doesn't mean they are harming anyone except maybe themselves. You don't harm me by writhing on the floor in your own church. I'm reminded of how our attitudes towards homosexuality have changed in recent years. It used to be OK to make jokes about gays because we'd imagine their sexual acts, which would creep us out. But that's our problem (speaking as a heterosexual). The fact is, imagining anyone's sexual acts can be creepy, even straight people's. Leave that alone as long as they don't hurt us. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 2599 Registered: 10-2004 |
You're right, no one is being harmed Tom. Those kids are totally normal. Convincing children to get into a religious fervor and becoming possessed by the spirit of the lord and writhing around on the floor well that's not harming anyone. So it's ok. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2384 Registered: 3-2004 |
Try reading Kevin Phillip's American Theocracy for some documented perspectives on the Religious Right, Fundamental Christians, Christian Reconstructionists, or whatever banner they cloak themselves in. Keep in mind that when there are children and adolescents writhing on the floor in paroxysms of joy, rapture, fervor, elation, or whatever state, there's usually NOT a psychologist or other therapist on site to ensure that these young people find their equilibrium again. That's the scary part. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 2601 Registered: 10-2004 |
Who needs a psychologist when you have the power of the lord on your side? | ||
| Señor Moment © Citizen Username: Howardt Post Number: 2466 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hahahahahaha!!!! That's HYSTERICAL! | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2386 Registered: 3-2004 |
senor moment: no. no. the hysteria is on the part of the participants. | ||
| something witty Citizen Username: Buckneja Post Number: 302 Registered: 1-2003  |
Here's another issue that might be fodder for thought: churchianity vs evangelicism. I looked up the terms online and found this helpful discussion on Wiki... Churchianity describes beliefs or more specifically practices of a church that focuses on habits of church life specific to a particular Christian denomination instead of highlighting the teachings of Jesus. In Europe, and most of Australia, US and Canada, evangelicism "...comprises everything from a liberal state church to a conservative free church in the Baptist or Pietist tradition." The term distinguishes Protestant-leaning churches from Orthodox or Catholic denominations and churches. But sometimes in the US (and some countries with Spanish influences and beliefs) "evangelical" is assumed erroneously to mean only those subscribing to "Pentecostalism." As is pointed out in several places on the web, someone with evangelical beliefs is sometimes assumed to be "...an evangelist, or evangelistic, especially when evangelism is practised assertively or aggressively" (Wikipedia). Talk amongst yourselves... | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15551 Registered: 1-2003 |
Alleygater, are you saying nothing in your life year-round would lead someone to raise his eyebrows about you? We're all weird in some ways. Please tell me how a religious fervor is somehow more harmful than a political fervor. | ||
| bettyd Citizen Username: Badjtdso Post Number: 283 Registered: 12-2005 |
Another good, yet scary read on religious fundamentalism is "Under the Banner of Heaven", about fundamentalist Mormons. Polygamy, pedophilia, incest, and murder all ordered by God. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5737 Registered: 5-2001 |
With the exception of the one brief shot of a kid spasming on the floor, I didn't see anything in the clip that wouldn't have been appropriate at a pep rally. | ||
| Billy Jack Citizen Username: Kendalbill Post Number: 228 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'm amazed at the lack of tolerance here. I would expect some of these comments from the usual suspects on other boards where the topic is Islam or something else. And I have criticized those comments when they come up. This trailer seems to dwell on one section of Christianity. It creeps people here out. Fine. Some of it creeps me out, too. The beauty of America is we don't have to all believe the same thing. Roll with it. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12575 Registered: 5-2001 |
I believe Pentecostals are the folks who feel the spirit of Christ and move around. I often wonder how much of this is the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome. It should be emphasized that this is a very small part of Chrisianity. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10712 Registered: 4-1997 |
It's difficult to know where freedom of religion leaves off and child abuse begins sometimes. There's tolerance, but then there's the Good Samaritan Law. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 2604 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bob K, I disagree completely. Didn't you see that trailer, it clearly stated that there were 80 million evangelicals and that's enough to win ANY election. 80 million that's not what I would call a small part. Billy Jack: don't get on your high horse with me. Every last one of those Evangelicals think I am going to burn in hell for not believing in Jesus. I don't consider that attitude as being particularly tolerant. | ||
| SO Ref Citizen Username: So_refugee Post Number: 2211 Registered: 2-2005  |
You're assuming that all 80 million evangelicals think alike. Do all african-americans think alike? Or all liberals? Or all conservatives? Probably not, as there are african-american evangelicals, liberal evangelicals, conservative evangelicals... | ||
| something witty Citizen Username: Buckneja Post Number: 303 Registered: 1-2003 |
A basic question, folks: Where exactly did the 80 million stat come from? Who tallied that figure? Is it from a census? From self report or from a categorized list of a research team? How many are kids, how many are of voting age? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12580 Registered: 5-2001 |
Alley, I was talking about the folks who end up on rolling around on the floor. It is a mistake to lump all "evangelicals" as you call them into one group. It isn't as monolithic a group as you think. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 2605 Registered: 10-2004 |
Not what I think. What that idiot in the trailer stated. I just repeated it to make fun of the stupid guy. | ||
| Charlton Citizen Username: Charlton Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2006 |
Indoctrination > "Gods army" > suicide bombers? - In the end it's all politics. No way man, Jesus was the ultimate hipster, he would cause all forms of havoc for the establishment if he were living today. Read what he did 2 millennia ago. | ||
| Billy Jack Citizen Username: Kendalbill Post Number: 229 Registered: 6-2002 |
Alleygater: I'll get off my high horse long enough to say that I don't believe you. You know better. I have to believe you are throwing out chum to get the argument going. Bishop Tutu is "evangelical". Jimmy Carter is "evangelical". Bill Clinton is "evangelical". All I have been saying is that "evangelical" is an enormous tent and the trailer shows only one particular strain. I don't agree with the message they seem to be telling their children (or at very least the way they are teaching) but it doesn't seem as outrageous as many other things out there. If your criticism is strictly about their child rearing, great..I probably agree. As for hell, calm down. What do you care that some (not all) evangelicals think you might end up in hell if you don't accept Christ? Are you worried? Are they hurting you personally? I have no idea what you believe and I don't care. I have no idea where you will end up and I don't care about that either. Why do you care so much what evangelicals think? Can't you just accept their theology and move on? Or was that more chum? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10718 Registered: 4-1997 |
Tutu is Anglican. You don't hear this kind of thing from evangelicals:
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| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15558 Registered: 1-2003 |
Alleygater wrote: Every last one of those Evangelicals think I am going to burn in hell for not believing in Jesus. I could not believe that for a minute. I don't consider that attitude as being particularly tolerant. Are you saying that you refuse to be more tolerant of them than they are of you? I suspect your differences in belief are what's making you uncomfortable. I heard the filmmaker interviewed on NPR. He is British so he did it as an outsider. He didn't seem to see his subjects in a negative light, so he probably didn't mean to depict them that way, either. |
