| Author | Message | ||
     Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 759 Registered: 5-2003 |
I listened to a fascinating Diane Rehm show on NPR the other day about the degree of homework given to children, especially younger children (Alfie Kohn -- "The Homework Myth"). Homework seems to start in kindergarten now and for some middle and high school children, requires 3-6 hours per night. When our son was at Marshall, his second grade teacher gave them huge amounts of homework, including projects requiring a great deal of parental time and supervision. I'm in no way against homework. In my high school years, my peers and I received about 2-3 hours per night, including bi-weekly lab assignments. But that was HIGH SCHOOL and I was a bit more mature and organized and also prepping for college. When our son received homework, he didn't fight it, but it was taxing to him. I did not understand why so much was given and when I approached the teacher and posed the question, I got some mumbo jumbo about "NJ State statistics show....blah, blah, blah". What I know NJ State stats show is that many of our area schools are failing. This NPR program enlightens us to what many parents already know...homework does not improve test scores, grades or the like. I'm not saying abolish all homework, but we do need to focus on how much is given and why. Kindergarteners pulling out folders of "busy work" is not my idea of an ideal education. Many of our local children are involved in sports, music and drama programs, which in my opinion, are just as important, if not more, than homework. We all want our children to be happy, active and creative and somehow, putting them at the kitchen table with folders and paperwork night after night doesn't seem to make children more happy or creative. | ||
| algebra2 Supporter Username: Algebra2 Post Number: 4232 Registered: 5-2001  |
My goal is that when my son, just started second grade, gets home it's time to decompress. He got a lot of homework in first grade so what we did is we stopped at a library on the way home and completed his homework. We also did it a few times at a picnic table at the playground or at a pizza place. This works for us because now, when he gets home there is no "do your homework!" and we can relax for the rest of the evening. I know this can't work for everyone, but it works for us. Also, in first and second, if your kid is overwhelmed talk to the teacher and maybe have them do just one worksheet rather than two -- I think that's better than having the kid get frustrated and turned off to homework. | ||
| Crazy_quilter Citizen Username: Crazy_quilter Post Number: 434 Registered: 2-2005 |
i just always wrote a note that said, "she worked 45 minutes and this is how much she got done." i'm not torturing my child (who takes way too long on simple assignments). or myself. the worst that happens is she got a few "W" on her grades for "completes homework". i talked to the teachers about it, too, and they have all been cool with that. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2680 Registered: 7-2003 |
I went to a school that was called IGE (Independently Guided Education) where if we were in the 3rd grade, we could take 4th grade Math, 3rd grade Science, and 2nd grade spelling. We tested each year and were switching classes all the time. Any way the amount of Homework was insane, and not just for me but for my mother. I would get home from school at 4:00pm and have 3 hours of home work. My mom had errands to run, haircuts, new clothes, food shopping, but she was trapped in the house until 7-8 with me and the homework. It also meant that M-Thu there was NO free time. We lived on a farm and sometimes had to work 2 hours a day with my dad. She finally complained to the school telling them to drop me down 1 grade so that I could help around the farm and also spend some time with the family. I guess she started a ruckus because the next year our day ended 1 hour early and we all went to study hall with the teachers to do our homework before we left school. They also stopped calling it homework, it was Mind Exercises. | ||
| doulamomma Citizen Username: Doulamomma Post Number: 1829 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mind Exercises!  I like the nightly reading & even the writing, but the rest seems inane (my oldest just started 4th & the second started K) | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 774 Registered: 5-2001 |
Kibbie Girl, I am so much in agreement with you! 90% of what we get is kinda junky busywork. I understand the necessity of repetition when it comes to math and spelling, but hundreds of worksheets for language arts without more thoughtful (and less frequent) high quality reading/writing assignments? Once the NJASK kicks in (3rd grade), it seems the teachers feel an incredible need to "drill to kill" with repetitious junk-homework. Hard for me to believe this busy-work really helps anyone. I hope more and more people speak out about the quality of homework, and the quantity (if it's an issue). I've been pretty vocal lately, especially about the LA homework, and I hope I'm being heard. Certainly would help if more people would say what they feel to the powers-that-be (including principals). | ||
| Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 760 Registered: 5-2003 |
My mother just called me from Boston and stated that my 16 year old brother, in a Boston public school, was just awarded a 4 year academic scholarship to a college of his choice! I'm walking on air! All that to say...he NEVER did homework throughout his entire school career. NEVER. The teachers fought with him, but they knew he was an exceptional student, and really let him slide. So there goes another example of the "homework myth". | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 3074 Registered: 11-2001  |
Kibbegirl - that's great news! Last year, when my daughter was in 4th grade, it seemed as though an inordinate amount of homework was assigned. Lots of it, particularly in Language Arts, seemed a bit repetitive. Unfortunately, the main result of having all of that homework was that my daughter hated homework. She had a great year, but really balked when faced with two hours of homework. Mjh, I agree with you. I am not opposed to homework either, but I do wish it consisted of something more substantial than busy work. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1883 Registered: 7-2005  |
Them kids better suck it up and get used to it! Because I must have....jeez....I don't even wanna' talk about it  back to studying! | ||
| Mary Lago Citizen Username: Marylago Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2006 |
Time Magazine had an article last week about homework: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376208,00.html Probably the same as the NPR story. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider  Post Number: 15578 Registered: 1-2003  |
Maybe it's time for the pendulum to start swinging the other way, now that awareness about this is rising. | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 2195 Registered: 8-2002 |
Sometimes I wonder if the "team" of teachers is always in synch. They may start the year out that way, but as things move the pace changes... (and as my son moves up in grades -- there are more teachers every year!) Its frustrating that some nights my son has way too much homework, then a night or two later there is almost none! That said, teachers don't seem to mind if I send a note that it was "too much" then he can work on it another night. /p | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 4558 Registered: 12-2004  |
The cover of this weeks newsweek is "The New First Grade: Are Kids Being Pushed Too Far, Too Fast?" My answer is a resounding YES! After months of fighting over homework with my oldest in kindergarten, and numerous meetings with his teacher about it, I finally just said "I'm not doing this anymore!" And the teacher agreed. First grade was a complete turnaround on his part. Was even doing his homework on the bus on the way home some days. Interested to see what this year holds for us, with the oldest in second grade and the middle child in kindergarten. I like Crazy-Quilter's approach and may keep that in mind if I need it in the future. I also agree with Algebra about the poor kids having a chance to decompress. However, the oldest now does the homework right away to get it done and out of the way so he can move on to "fun" things. And if it works for him, it certainly works for me! And even with all this pushing and testing and nonsense, American schools still seem to lag behind a good majority of the rest of civilized world! Go figure. | ||
| Petal Citizen Username: Petal Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2006 |
my sister in law who works in education made a great point several years ago. the school and teachers should be able to provide an atmosphere where learning takes place during school hours and it's not the child's responsibility to learn it alone at home in the form of homework. now while i have no problem with revisiting concepts introduced that day at home, hours of work for the younger kids and parents seems harsh. the kids need tome to decompress, play, and enjoy themselves. the parents need tome to run the family. you're only a kid once! | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 2172 Registered: 5-2001 |
mjh - (and most of the others on this thread)
YES! Word jumbles, condescending cartoon characters designed to make homework "fun" - it's nonsense and IMO counter-productive. Homework for homework's sake doesn't teach children to be curious or use their reasoning skills, it just makes them jaded and more likely to figure out methods to get through the worksheets as quickly as possible. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 2413 Registered: 6-2002 |
crazy_quilter, that sounds exactly like my kid ... takes way too long on simple stuff as she tends to go way deeper into stuff than is required. We started timing her out after 2 hours last year (yeah really - 2 hours - she would easily take 3 if allowed to go that long). The teacher told us this was OK, but like in your experience, we then got notes home that she had to finish her homework (or kiddo would come home telling me the teacher wanted her to finsh it all). Very conflicting messages. I've posted on this at considerable length in the past. This year it looks the same. The teacher's "policy" note, which I had to sign, says that the homework should take no more than 1 hour and we should time the kids out after one hour. In the next paragraph, it said that all homework must be completed or the kids will have lunchtime detention, unless there is a legitimate excuse and a parent's note (no idea what constitutes a "legitimate excuse" - does taking too long count?) So which is it? I don't mind homework if it is meaningful and I know what it is meant to accomplish. But all too often, it seems like monkey-stupid stuff that is not connected to any learning objective that I can discern. I do not see the point, and it is very hard for me to get behind something that I see of as an unproductive waste of time. I'd rather my kid read, to be honest. Or watch a good documentary on PBS, which she loves to do. Or just chill - she deserves that as much as we all do. | ||
| mjc Citizen Username: Mjc Post Number: 1301 Registered: 10-2004 |
Our guys occasionally skipped homework for family events, and I also timed them out once in a while - enough is enough! I would add a note for the teacher when this happened, and there was never a problem. The teachers don't always know how long an assignment will take, and they may never find out unless parents tell them. (this was elementary, once in a while at middle school. in high school, I think they timed themselves out, with not always such good results...) Just curious, in the middle schools, esp. for the 6th graders, why can't they set up a schedule where maybe English and social studies assign homework on Mon and Wed, math and science on Tues and Thurs, to avoid "clumping" of homework? | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 3190 Registered: 9-2003  |
My kid is in 8th grade now, and I have to say it got better as soon as she hit middle school. Very rarely has the homework been silly and onerous since she hit 6th grade. 4th and 5th grade here were an abysmal pile of nonsensical language arts homework, and gross projects that appeared to require a lot of parental participation (seems like this has been talked about every Spring, eh CLK?) Seems a very likely topic for the PTA to take up. | ||
| Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 769 Registered: 5-2003 |
I too signed the homework "policy" stating that the kids receive an hour of homework perhaps per night. The problem is that it's usually more than an hours worth. I will get quite the Mommy Attitude is my child, for any reason, cannot finish a homework assignment and is sent to lunchroom detention. What the hell? If the child is becoming more frustrated with the assignment, the clock is ticking and the night is becoming longer and longer, then it's time to wrap it up and attach a note to the teacher. Hopefully, 'my child was tired and frustrated so we will finish this later' is an "acceptable excuse". | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 2414 Registered: 6-2002 |
Right, kibbegirl - I agree. I guess, though the "we'll finish it later" concept doesn't always work. Because you know, it'll be the same thing all over again the next night. If kiddo is routinely taking 2 hours to finish homework, the concept of "catching up" starts becoming a bit unrealistic. The thing is, the reason my kid takes so long is because she really delves deeply into homework assignments. E.g for that dumb dictionary activity they did during third grade (copy out 10 dictionary definitions), she'd sometimes consult 6 dictionaries and mull over every single definition before settling on one to copy down. By doing this, she turned an otherwise mindless task into something interesting and meaningful - but extremely time-consuming. I don't want to discourage this by telling her "just write any old crap down to satisfy the requirement, it's dumb anyway" - you know? How cynical would that be? (no offense to my cynicalgirl pal!) I'm old enough to have established a certain cynical streak myself, but I don't want to cultivate it in my kid at such a young age if I don't have to. I guess that's part of it. It goes against the grain both as a parent, and as an educator. | ||
| Crazy_quilter Citizen Username: Crazy_quilter Post Number: 440 Registered: 2-2005 |
i crossed out the line about doing the homework during recess/ lunch if not done and wrote that we had to talk about this in person. I wrote that my dtr has a high need for movement and physical exercise,that it is a severe punishment for her to be deprived of recess and that i do not want to this to happen. I also wrote that we try very hard on the homework and take it seriously, but are not always able to finish it. then i signed it. we'll see how the teacher responds. I also told my dtr to just knock the homework out quickly. She said that the teacher said to take their time and do their best work. I told her that for her it is different, she needs to do it fast and the minimum amount possible. (she's not quite buying that yet). she took about 3 hours working on 10 imaginative reasons why Henry's homework wasn't done (and still only got 8 reasons). I was tearing my hair out. especially as i was projecting onto the rest of the year with more assignments! | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 3197 Registered: 9-2003 |
...on occasion, I DID tell cynical jr to write "any old crap" just to get it done -- and THEN do a more interesting riff on the assignment. We did have the occasional long talk about the world (and still do) and which assignments were cool/worthwhile and which were just rivers to cross -- on any old crap raft! Choosing one's battles and all that. I figured (by grade 5 anyway) it was better to honor her accurate impressions of what was going on, and the need to suck it up, than to pretend every teacher every day and every assignment was really intentional and wonderful. But that's just me... | ||
| Charlton Citizen Username: Charlton Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2006 |
The kids need to 'de-compress' boo hoo. How about the working parents who, after picking their kids up from after-school care, have to sift through all the 'junk mail' that comes included with the homework. I don't remember my teachers giving my parents that much crap to sort. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15600 Registered: 1-2003 |
I agree, Charlton, though it was a useful object lesson last night. One of my daughters spent tons more energy fighting and avoiding her chores than it took to do the damned chores. So when I had to sign all those stupid papers, I whined and complained and did it. The lesson was that it's OK to complain, but you have to do the stupid tasks assigned to you. But yeah. Why can't they give us a master form and peel off the useful information to all the interested parties, i.e. the main office, the nurse, etc.? It's because they don't value our time. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 2415 Registered: 6-2002 |
Charlton - that made me laugh - another pet peeve, just not one I've ever ranted about here (as I'm choosing the bigger fish for now). I go nearly mental with all of the notes, announcements, etc and I swear I miss stuff because there is just so darn much of it - my mind is in a blur going through all of it. I think I miss the stuff I need to see at least a quarter of the time. I also worry about all of the trees that were sacrificed for us to learn about pee-wee football or whatever. (though I'm sure that's the "signal" vs. "noise" for some parents - my trash is your important stuff, and vice-versa.) | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 779 Registered: 5-2001 |
" I figured (by grade 5 anyway) it was better to honor her accurate impressions of what was going on, and the need to suck it up, than to pretend every teacher every day and every assignment was really intentional and wonderful. But that's just me..." Cyn, I feel the same way with my 5th grade son. I sorta feel like he'll lose trust in me if I (dishonestly) pretend that I believe there is genuine value in every little homework assignment. He knows the type of assignments I appreciate and those that I don't. He does the homework (required by me), but it doesn't take him nearly as long as CLK or CrazyQ are describing.......I don't think I'll have to worry about overachievement. Worksheet-type assignments are done in the same vein as my husband's cooking..........as fast as possible! I would never go for homework "punishment" of canceling recess. I also feel very strongly that my kid needs recess in order to perform well in school. He's just desperate to run. | ||
| Lotts of guns Citizen Username: Lotts_of_guns Post Number: 60 Registered: 3-2005 |
My child recently attended Marshall. If there was more than 20min of homework per night we didn't know about it- often a lot less or nil - could vary with the child and the teacher I guess. We barely noticed it. | ||
| Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 776 Registered: 5-2003 |
My child also attended Marshall and he received more than 20 minutes a night. And even if homework was lighter on some nights than others, you had to factor in the projects due. Since he has outside interests, we scheduled working on the project(s) 15 minutes a night if we could, until done. Sometimes there were errors, changes he wanted to make, etc., which of course made the actual homework seem longer. | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 540 Registered: 8-2004  |
My kids aren't in the schools, but it doesn't surprise me to hear that a lot of the work doesn't make much sense. We know our schools are under pressure to raise scores, and I think we've heard enough to know that a lot of our curriculum is poorly organized. If teachers are anxious they'll want to do _something_, which will be homework, but if it isn't part of a well designed structure the homework won't be very useful. Teachers ought to be able to explain why the kids are doing what they are doing. If they can't, that signals a problem (either with the curriculum, the training, or the teacher) and the principal ought to hear about it. We ought to pressure the schools at all levels and channels to improve the curriculum and their delivery of it. BTW -- Earlier this week the Star Ledger had an op-ed by Jay Matthews arguing that while the top 5% of our students are overloaded, the rest of the kids aren't and would benefit from working harder. It's worth looking at. | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 4576 Registered: 12-2004 |
What's funny about all of this, and has been my biggest pet peeve so far, is that there are district guidelines about how much homework should be assigned by grade. As far as I can tell, no one is following them, and homework differs from school to school and teacher to teacher, and even within the same grade! What's the point of the guidelines if NO ONE is using them! It boggles the mind. This is the beginning of just my third year in the public schools and, already, I can see why folks might choose to send their kids to private school. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 3199 Registered: 9-2003 |
Too true, MeAnd, on the guidelines/practice disconnect. I think the guidelines were something like the 15 mins per grade per night. 4th and 5th grade home work regularly exceeded that. | ||
| Buttercup Citizen Username: Buttercup Post Number: 144 Registered: 12-2005  |
I did an hour of homework per subject per night in high school, a total of 6 - 8 hours a night. I went to an intensive private school and also did sports/other activities. Yes, it was excessive but I was so grateful because, by the time I got to college, I coasted and still got top marks while my peers struggled to stay afloat. Therefore, I am an advocate for a tough homework policy regardless of age. It prepares you for higher education as well as for the rigor of a career. | ||
| Hamandeggs Citizen Username: Hamandeggs Post Number: 388 Registered: 8-2005 |
Speaking as a teacher in a private school, there's no relief from homework there! Where I teach, there is a tremendous amount, starting on the first day. And in my years in public school, the vast majority of parents wanted MORE homework, not less. I can't count how many parents -- in several schools -- wanted lots more homework, lots. My own kids have trouble with homework, but I don't blame the guidelines. One's kid's 10 minutes is another's 30. 15 mins/grade seems low, anyway. I have taught in schools where the guideline is 15 mins/grade/subject each night, given that you probably don't have each subject every day. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 3204 Registered: 9-2003 |
It does make me wonder, though, how some of we oldsters ever learned to put one foot in front of the other as we did NOT have hours of homework a night in elementary school. Went to school in Scotch Plains in late '50's/early '60's. Homework was not a multi-hour affair until middle school, and then not overwhelming. Maybe one modest set of math problems and some kind of vocabulary/LA assignment. Just wasn't a big factor in daily life until middle school. Love to see a legit, more longitudinal/historical study on how standardized test scores correlate with homework for a paricular cohort. By longitudinal I mean let's go back to the late '50's. I just don't get it. I've heard that SATs got "renormed" so that basically today's 700 is more like a 600 from the '70's. Then I hear that a boat load of homework is now the norm. Did kids get less able? Did teaching techniques got awfully mushy? For a given demographic cohort, what has changed so to justify this homework barrage? | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3821 Registered: 5-2001 |
Overambitious parents and NCLB. I understand from teachers I know and I've seen some posts on this board from teachers that support it, that there are MANY parents who want more homework for their kids, believe it or not. And I do recall, when my oldest was in 2nd grade and there was a real homework overload going on in all the 2nd grade classes at Tuscan at the time, that I complained about it to the class parent and she responded that she didn't see any problem with the amount of homework the kids were getting. I totally disagreed as it was in excess of one hour every night and never a break. That year there was some kind of assignment outstanding (nightly homework, project, something) from before Thanksgiving until MLK Day, including over both the Thanksgiving and Christmas holiday period. And the only reason that there wasn't anything on MLK day was that there was a snowstorm that resulted in two snow days on the preceding Thursday and Friday and she happened to have finished her Wednesday night homework before we knew that class was cancelled on Thursday. It was on that occasion, when I made the realization of how long it had been without a break from assignments, that I wrote a letter to the teacher. Not long afterwards, a note came home in all the backpacks from all the 2nd teachers expressing a response to concerns that had been raised by parents about the homework load and we did get a moderation after that. I will say that I have rarely had any concerns for my own children in this regard since then. I don't know if they have just been lucky to get teachers who believed in moderation or they just didn't complain to me about their homework. But I do hear horror stories from other parents, so I know that it still goes on in many classrooms. One issue that we have still run up against occasionally is that teachers in the Middle and High schools don't seem to know (or care) about the district policy which requires that any homework assigned over school breaks not be due sooner than one week following the break. (It's something like that, anyway, and I think it also requires that they be assigned at least one week before the start of the break although that part is of less concern to me.) My older kid has had projects due on the first day or two after a break on more than one occasion and this is really unfair, both to the kids and their families, because it can really ruin a time that ought to be an opportunity for rest and renewal. When I complained to the counselor about one in particular last year (a major English paper due the day after New Years Day), she was very surprised that this happened but she also said that there was nothing she could do about it. If the counselors can't help in this kind of situation, who can? | ||
| finnegan Supporter Username: Finnegan Post Number: 375 Registered: 6-2001 |
I am so with you, sac, on the issue of homework due the day after school vacations. There was a big science project due last year in middle school the day after February break. I contacted the teacher, the team leader, the science supervisor, and everyone else I could think of to no avail. I sent each of them a copy of the Board Policy, which explicitly prohibits projects due the day students return from breaks. While everyone was polite, no one thought having a BOE policy on this issue meant anything needed to change. Project was still due the day after break. It was very frustrating. | ||
| Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 790 Registered: 5-2003 |
I was bracing for some form of homework from my sons 3rd grade class, but so far, nothing. Perhaps the homework will begin this week. I'm truly hoping for the best. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 3206 Registered: 9-2003 |
I would've thought the curriculum supervisor (or whatever role it is that oversees the grade/subject in question) would be responsible for insuring conformity to guidelines regarding homework and so on. 'Course that task seems to go undone if some of the posts are any indication (homework policy, course objectives by grade, etc.). I hear you, sac. I just wonder whether it's achieving the desired results (NCLB). | ||
| Psychomom Citizen Username: Psychomom Post Number: 787 Registered: 5-2005  |
I didn't mind a little homework for the kids to review and practice what they learned, but so many times they would come home and have no idea what they were supposed to do on the worksheet and I had to play the teacher and do the teacher's job. And don't get me started on "projects" You can't convince me that the kids created some of the projects I saw come into school...it was a competition by the parents for the parents if you ask me.(which you didn't so I guess I'll shut up LOL) |
