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Citizen
Username: Wbg69
Post Number: 819
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 10:08 am: |     |
duh, Glickman is a stooge for industry bosses.
FARMERS do understand how to farm their animals responsibly. in fact, it works rather well when you spread animal farming out among regular farmers - by regular, I mean family farms, individuals and their families who farm.
CORPORATE farmers, on the other hand, do NOT understand how to farm responsibly. their concentration of animals in one place introduces all kinds of very harmful byproducts (toxic s**t swamps, for example - and I do mean literally) as well as very high risks. add to this the incredibly severe line-rate forced on the workers - in the US its approximately THREE TIMES the rate it is in other countries! there's no way workers can safely or accurately do their jobs with the ridiculous production standards imposed on th corporate farms.
so there's your answer. yet who gets the farm subisidies? far and away - they go to big business, ultra-wealthy people (e.g., Ted Turner, Scotty Pippin), and in fact even the politicians who sponsor that legislation - by the hundreds of thousands of dollars. this legislation is kept alive by the romantic image of the family farmer - who in reality gets almost 0 of this enormous pie($190b this year, yes?). |
tourne
Citizen
Username: Tourne
Post Number: 281
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 10:09 am: | |
Habanero2,
Please, post some links! That way you would be putting your links where your mouth is! |
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1587
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 10:31 am: | |
habanero2, that's a cheap trick. You're ascribing absurd beliefs to toune to make him/her look bad, in order to knock down the beliefs he/she actually espoused.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 12:46 pm: | |
A while back, I signed up for Whole Foods' spam list. I just received this from them:
My Whole Foods - December 31, 2003
Whole Foods Market Natural Beef
Raised to Taste Better and Monitored Every Step of the Way
With the recent news about Mad Cow Disease,
customers can continue to shop our meat department
with confidence. Our stringent quality standards
help ensure the meat we sell is not at risk.
Meat Raised to the Highest Standards - Ours!
*A 100% vegetarian diet with no animal by-products, ever
*No added hormones or antibiotics
*Traceability of each animal back to their place of birth
*All cattle processed before 24 months of age
*No sick, lame or "downer" animals processed into meat
*Freshly ground beef from whole muscle meat
*Mandatory third-party audits for food safety and
humane animal treatment at the processing plants
Learn more about our strict meat quality standards.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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Habanero2
Citizen
Username: Habanero2
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 1:12 pm: | |
http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pubs/Natures_Toxic_Tools.pdf
Here is a fun article on organic farming and pesticides. |
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1592
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 1:18 pm: | |
habanero2, thanks for that. It's true that any label, such as organic, can be abused or misused in order to increase sales. Something can be certified organic and still be junk food or harmful or just not beneficial. Look at all the crap that can legally claim to be kosher. I think that subverts the intention of the designation. But what can you do?
The organic movement is a response to some pretty disturbing trends. Some organic food is clearly superior. On the other hand, I've seen some frozen, highly processed food labeled organic.
As always, the buyer is best served when he is well educated. Unfortunately, the burden to learn and keep up to date is higher than ever.
cjc, your argument about life expectancy doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. To extrapolate it, anyone can do whatever the hell he wants at any time, because life expectancy has increased.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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eliz
Citizen
Username: Eliz
Post Number: 646
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 11:41 am: | |
quote: Most poor countries cant even afford cheaply produced food much less organic food
Habanero - most truly poor countries survive on subsistence agriculture all of which is organic. Most poor countries/farmers cannot afford pesticides or GM seeds and farm in a truly traditional, organic method.
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Habanero2
Citizen
Username: Habanero2
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 2:38 pm: | |
Poor countries like to use old growth forests as their organic fertilizer. That is, they burn an area of forest then farm the nutrient rich ashes.
I will give in slightly:
After reviewing the literature (mostly highly biased stuff), organic vegies are more nutritious in about 40% of the studies whereas non-organic vegies win only 10% of the time.
Virginia Worthington seems to be the Dennis Avery of herbal voodoo, and has compiled the most data on the subject. Her 1998 article is cited all over the Vermont section of the world wide web, but simple dehydration of organic vegies can account for a lot of the difference.
There are so many problems with her study that it is ridiculous. It is like trusting Dennis Avery for the other side of the story.
I admit that both sides are biased. My point is that eating organic will not make you healthier or prolong your life. Here are the things that will, in order of importance:
1. Absolute calorie restriction (if animals are starved they live 50% longer).
2. Pick your parents wisely. If they are 100 years old, party up.
3. Take care of your medical conditions. Primarily diabetes, high blood pressure and high cholesterol.
4. Don't smoke.
5. Exercise.
6. Drink 2 glasses of wine per day and cut down on cholesterol.
Notice that none of these things require an organic diet. I will concede that organic vegies are prettier and can taste better (genetically modified tomatoes have no flavor) but will not help you live longer.
"You kids today have it easy. When I was a kid everything was HUGE. My dad was nearly four times bigger than me. You couldn't even see the tops of counters.... Then gradually everything became smaller until it was the manageable size it is today." |
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1610
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 4:17 pm: | |
I read a theory that the one thing that people who live really old have in common is an ability (or willingness) to adjust to change.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 890
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 5:03 pm: | |
If drinking two glssses of wine a day will prolong my life won't drinking four or five prolong it even more? |
tourne
Citizen
Username: Tourne
Post Number: 283
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 6:21 pm: | |
Habanero2,
Are you a member of the Hudson Institute? Do you work for a pesticide company? The Dennis Avery link you list is the same biased, corporate sponsored misinformation factory that was cited in the article on the 20/20 show. Your linked article goes on and on about sulfur and oil as being heavily used in organic agriculture as if that was something bad. In fact, it is great that these compounds are used because they are non-toxic and no threat to humans or the environment!! Amazing how the Hudson Institute is deliberately trying to badmouth organic agriculture with outright lies and incredibly skewed thinking!! Thank you for at least admitting that studies show that organic vegies are most often more nutritious.
The real facts are that ORGANICALLY RAISED ANYTHING WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE MORE DISEASE FREE. Organophosphate pesticides have been tentalively linked to increases in childhood brain cancers as well as learning disorders and autism. The widely used herbicide 2,4-D has been directly linked to cancer and is a listed carcinogen with the EPA and other real, scientifically based organizations, including Cornell University. Pesticides and herbicides used in conventional farming are killers in the environment and in our bodies, even yours! Did you know that a standard practice in conventional agriculture is to plant a cover crop, then, instead of plowing it under, the entire field is sprayed with herbicide. After that, the herbicide resistant corn is planted, followed by airiel spraying of several different pesticide, herbicides, synthetic fungicides, etc. Then you get to eat the corn!! No charge for all the extra chemicals!
Maybe you and the Hudson Institute should wake up from your voodoo trance and smell the flowers. Just don't get too close, because they are loaded with poisons also. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1712
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 8:09 pm: | |
I don't know how else to explain stuff like that other than that he must be on somebody's payroll. I mean, seriously, presented with the choice of a head of broccoli sprayed with pesticides and herbicides, and a head of broccoli that isn't, how can you say with a straight face that one has the same impact on your health as the other? Read the labels on that stuff next time you're at Home Depot. You should wear rubber gloves just to handle the empty containers, and you think eating it is OK? |
Waldo
Citizen
Username: Discowaldo
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 11:58 am: | |
I saw this online and thought it was interesting that the Department of Agriculture specifically states that it "makes no claims that organically produced food is safer of more nutritious than conventionally produced food."
http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/Consumers/brochure.html |
tourne
Citizen
Username: Tourne
Post Number: 285
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 4:19 pm: | |
Waldo,
It's just a disclaimer--doesn't mean anything one way or the other. You should decide for yourself whether eating pesticides is healthier than not eating pesticides. The pesticide manufacturer's label is very clear that one should not eat pesticides. Do you really think it is safer to eat pesticides? |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 826
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 4:51 pm: | |
Just a question - how much of the pesticides are washed off by the time you eat the food? Is the potential harm from the same mitigated somewhat by cooking? |
Waldo
Citizen
Username: Discowaldo
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 5:06 pm: | |
tourne,
Well its hard for me to decide one way or the other considering that their are so many conflicting statistics many of which I think are from the internet, and the internet is filled with biased sites that may not appear so at first glance. But truthfully I feel that i will continue to eat normal foods regardless of what is sprayed on them or pumped into them. The nutrition factor really doesn't make a big difference to me considering I can just take some pill made with those lovely chemicals that will supply me with what is needed anyway .
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jgberkeley
Citizen
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3394
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 10:27 pm: | |
Having grown up in farm country of California, and having many family memebers still on the farms, what makes you think that the label 'Organic' means that pesticides are not used?
The label or the law?
If you want organic, grow your own; else wash your food.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic. |
eliz
Citizen
Username: Eliz
Post Number: 648
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 12:25 am: | |
Waldo - just fyi AMS is the Agricultural Marketing Service of USDA and it is their job to market US products - most of which are conventionally grown. They have long had a contentious relationship with organic groups and will never say anything that would even imply that conventionally grown produce is in any way inferior or less safe than organic (and I'm not making a statement that it is or isn't). Farmers/agribusinesses (again most of which are non-organic) are some of the most powerful lobbyists in Washington and the Ag dept is basically run by these individual special interest groups.
See today's op-ed in the NY Times - it's time to take food safety away from USDA and give it to an independent agency. |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 334
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 2:21 am: | |
This thread reminds me of the 2000 Year Old man's diet for longevity. When asked, "What kind of diet has kept him alive for 2000 years?". he replied, "Cool spring water", Just that?, "Yup" he replied, "and a corned beef sandwhich". |
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