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     BGS Citizen Username: Bgs Post Number: 379 Registered: 10-2003 |
My husband and I own a business on the Irvington/Maplewood border where Irvington Avenue and Clinton Avenue meet, at the end of Parker. Many years ago all of the store owners in our little section went to Town Hall and pleaded our case for a beat cop. We got not one but two and crime during daylight hours in our area is way down. However, that is not the total answer because Valley National on Irvington has been robbed twice recently. Beat cops were a way of life when I was growing up and I am sorry that they are not around more. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4189 Registered: 5-2001  |
oh boy, kathleen walked through the park at night, once, and it was a lovely walk at that. How nice for her and her friends. My son's friend got the sh*t kicked out of him just walking through the park one night with his friend. My kids are downtown alot and are in the high school and know many many kids. I'll take their word for it the reasons why they do not go into the park at night. Cops should be strolling through the park, on foot, at some sort of interval every friday and saturday night. They don't do it, or don't do it enough. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 878 Registered: 2-2002 |
JerryC. (firstly, I enjoyed your use of "StEEL"). - I thank you for helping me clarify some of my thoughts on these matters. We are not so far apart as you might assume, either geographically, or in an appreciation of good places gone bad. That said: If some citizens are convinced that their neighborhood would be improved with the presence of surveillance cameras then so be it. However, I would stand with Joe and others that nothing beats a beat cops. -I love beat cops, and when they walk by me I say "How ya doin'?" and they answer me. They also actually move around and are not tied to a pole where drug dealers get to know exactly what camera angles or locations to avoid. I also simply object to any restrictions being put in place which might unnecessarily render perfectly harmless, normal, enjoyable, activities to be suddenly illegal. That makes sense doesn't it? No one should interpret concerns about the wisdom of some of the suggested "anti-crime" measures as either an endorsement of crime or a blindness to what problems do exist. -To do so really does a disservice to the discussion and in my opinion leads to misdirected anger. At the moment I simply remain unconvinced that some of the measures suggested will do what is necessary to address those areas which need to be addressed and would suggest that other citizens also carefully consider what the measures might do, -either as a good thing or as a bad unintended consequence and also what they might NOT do before everybody jumps on the train, -that train might not be going where you hope it is. -That's all, -I really hope that simple argument isn't too hard to agree with. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| JerryC Citizen Username: Jerryc Post Number: 161 Registered: 12-2002 |
Not hard to agree with at all. I am with you also on the beat cop issue. I think we started down a slippery slope when we began to remove beat cops...officers who knew their turf and the people in it. Officers who were not afraid to say hi, I'm officer so and so what's your name, or can I help you with something. I remember well when we had foot patrols on Springfield Ave and a cop at the corner of Prospect and Springfield who knew everything about the neighborhood and CARED deeply about it. I think we now have many officers who live out of town, work their shift and want to get involved as little as possible. No camera will ever be a substitute for that. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 6712 Registered: 5-2001 |
Cameras won't substitute for police officers but they can help the police department deploy what police officers we have more effectively by pinpointing georgraphic locations and times of day where/when a live police officer can be most effective. When visible (and known to be monitored regularly) they can also serve as a deterrent to criminal activity. Think of them as a mechanical extention of the neighborhood watch programs which so many of us favor and as a manpower planning tool for the MPD. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Joe Citizen Username: Gonets Post Number: 1057 Registered: 2-2004 |
Uniformed beat cops can’t be everywhere. They lose a lot of their deterrent value when they turn the corner. Occasional plain clothes cops catching people in the act of littering and imposing stiff penalties are another wonderful means of enforcement. I wouldn’t say people should be incarcerated for littering. But I’m all for humiliating the offenders in the most tangible way to redress the act, clean up after others. Is this too strong for you? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4190 Registered: 5-2001 |
More trash cans, especially in the park, would be good too  | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4446 Registered: 9-2001  |
GOOD MEETING * GREAT TURNOUT | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 242 Registered: 11-2003 |
The new street marching formation of the Maplewood gangsta:
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| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3809 Registered: 12-2001  |
"I really believe criminalizing kids walking home from school (because they drift to the street sometimes)will cause a lot more problems than it would resolve. Such an ordinance clearly targets black kids because there's a huge number of them all walking the same direction (east) while white kids are dispersed all over the two towns, and fewer of them seem to walk home. While I like many of Fred's suggestions regarding crime, I don't like this one at all." Because they "drift" into the street? Is that what walking three or four or five abreast and blocking the flow of traffic is called? I don't think so. I think the proposed ordinance is aimed at those people who think it is OK to walk in the street and force cars to slow down or stop. I don't buy the complaints about broken down sidewalks. We are talking about young people here, not elderly or frail people who legitimately have problems with broken and heaved up sidewalks. I don't think it is too much to ask people to walk on sidewalks. It happens in Manhattan all the time. I managed to walk to and from high school on sidewalks. Maybe we should change the ordinance to read that motorists may strike pedestrians in the street without liability so long as there is a sidewalk and the pedestrian was not crossing at an approved crosswalk. As far as punishment is concerned, the punishment should fit the crime. We are dealing with people who chose to act like animals. (This is an equal opportunity problem by the way - the kids I see blocking sidewalks in the Village seem to be mostly white.) They should be allowed to spend time in the unused deer pen on the reservation. Jail and the penal system is not necessary. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 280 Registered: 8-2004 |
I was surprised by the increase in crime reported by Chief Cimino last night. It's not clear that gangs are the cause of that; I think he had a slide showing that arrests of adults were up from 2005, and arrests of kids were down. (Is that presentation available anywhere so I can check?) If so, that isn't consistent with the idea that kids are the crime problem. I'd be interested in knowing the breakdown in assault and robbery arrests by resident/nonresident and juvenile/nonjuvenile. And what about drug dealing? If dealers get the idea they can make a little money here, they're going to show up, so we ought to stay way ahead of that curve. Still, there are lots of anecdotal reports of increased silly behavior by kids -- sauntering down the streets, wearing colors, disorderly conduct, trouble in the schools, etc. As the state trooper said last night, most of this is kids trying to be cool without understanding what they are playing with. It isn't just black kids, either. I've had to speak with a white kid about littering on my lawn, right in front of me, and a hispanic kid smoking dope with his girlfriend (in broad daylight!) in Borden park. We ought to be steering these kids away from this for their own good, and before something truly stupid happens. Things like conditions in the park and walking down the streets are about laying claim to territory, and if you let kids take that territory in their own mind they'll go looking for the next way to assert themselves. We should take back that territory, to send the message that this is our community, with rules they have to respect, and it starts with little things and goes up from there. That doesn't take a heavy-handed approach -- it takes consistent, courteous, firm pressure to behave properly, with stronger responses for those people that insist the rules don't apply to them and those situations that breed this kind of disrespect. And the response ought to be courteous, because these behaviors are somewhat subjective and we're trying to teach these kids to be part of the community, not opposed to it. I don't know that we need new ordinances for this, though I like the parental accountability proposal. We need more enforcement of the laws we have and better maintenance of the parks -- last night's comments about Borden park went on a bit, but they are accurate. I've never seen an officer or a DPW worker in that park, and I often clean up the litter (which often includes alcohol bottles and assorted paraphenalia) while my kids play there. The other day two kids were sharing a little PDA on the toddler's equipment while my two-year old daughter was playing, and it never occurred to them to move on. DeHart park used to be a mess too, though maybe it has improved with the new equipment. I'll speak to the knuckleheads smoking, but it would be nice to know the cops are backing me. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 529 Registered: 7-2003 |
I agree ajc, it was a great turnout. The comments made were interesting and how the council chooses to address them will be even more interesting. I'd like to say that the man who spoke about this being "hysteria" created with all this gang talk enlightened me. While I don't agree with the boys arrested at MMS being called for, I do believe they were trespassing and wrong for that. But folks, let's not give this "gang" talk too much credibility. It really makes no difference if someone is in a gang or not. Mayor Profeta could be in a gang for all I care, that's not the issue. Even Cheif Cimino said "its not illegal to BE in a gang". The issue is "illegal activity"! Gang related or not, anyone partaking in illegal activity should be dealt with accordingly. The young black man who spoke about feeling young blacks are harrassed, especially around Jacoby St. Don't know if that's true either but c'mon, if police response is 90% driven, and most of the complaints come from that area, do the math. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rick B Citizen Username: Ruck1977 Post Number: 915 Registered: 8-2003  |
"We should take back that territory, to send the message that this is our community, with rules they have to respect, and it starts with little things and goes up from there." I wish more people felt this way. Its one thing to go and complain about some kid littering on your town library's property, but why expect the police to enforce it. Saying something to the litterer atleast sets a tone, and puts the idea in his mind that oh, someone might see me do this thing that is wrong. I just get the idea that sometimes people are so afraid of confrontation or even retalliation and it is very frustrating. We can't just sit back be pushovers and wait for the police or someone else to deal with things. This is our town, we should all take some pride in that, and not allow ourselves to be pushed around. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rick B Citizen Username: Ruck1977 Post Number: 916 Registered: 8-2003 |
Forgot to also ask: I left the meeting at about 10pm...what went on after that? Is there some sort of plan in place for the ordinances? Is any action being taken? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 5202 Registered: 12-2001  |
Tjohn...the busted up sidewalk was in my post. I hope you read my post and not just that part of it cause you clearly misrepresented the point I was making. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 6154 Registered: 5-2001  |
I'm sorry that I missed the meeting. Thanks for all who are posting their comments. Rick- I think that you are right about people being afraid to say something. I live on a corner and gaggles of kids constantly cross my lawn, walk thru flower beds and throw their soda bottles into my bushes. If I see them, I say something. I don't yell or sound nasty; I just say "Hey, guys, do you mind using the sidewalk/staying out of the flowers"? I've even taken bottles out of the bushes and chased the kids down the street to give them their "forgotten" trash. Usually, I get a brain-dead "Oh! Sorry". Once or twice I've had a stare down with one thug wanna-be out of the whole group. It's not the most comfortable feeling, but I hold my ground. I look forward to hearing more reports back from last night's meeting as the day goes on. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| JerryC Citizen Username: Jerryc Post Number: 162 Registered: 12-2002 |
It was a good meeting and I again thank JB for being a catalyst here and for Fred P. for setting up the forum. As for the public comments, I have little to say. It amazes me how people could listen to that presentation by Chief Cimino and the State Police representitve and then still make some of the comments that they did. My bigggest problem was with the gentleman from South Orange who got up and continuously dealt the race card from the bottom of his deck..over and over. His attitude that "whitie" is out to get all of the people of color is indiciative of the direction our society is going in general. It is ALWAYS someone else's fault. He talked about hysteria, and distortion of facts and singling out his people. He talked about white gangs inside the State Police and unfair treatment. He talked about the PD not having "respect" for the black youths. He talked on and on and on. My issue and one that was in my opinion very telling was the fact that in spite of a 3 minute rule, the TC let him go on and on and on for nearly 15 minutes. What were they afraid of? Will that same fear keep this town from really addressing the crime issues? I hope not but my confidence is shaken after that display last night. Thanks to those who did turn out and speak out. In particular, thanks to Carol Buchannan and the Hilton Neighborhood Association for their well thought out comments and their support of this initiative. Greentree, the kind of kids we are dealing with over here on the border are not the type that will usually just say I'm sorry when confronted. Ask JB for details. You can try to address them directly but be very prepared to take your chances with the outcome. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 4928 Registered: 3-2002 |
I got a sense from the meeting that we have a gang-vulnerable situation rather than a gang situation. Its also clear we have a rise in crime and we have alot of "quality of life" problems that need to be addressed in a number of different ways, not just through the law, but certainly using that as one option. Not thats its irrelevant if its gang-related or not, but its still crime nonetheless, and it needs to be remedied. Its going to take a comprehensive plan, one not just based on ordinances, and its going to take alot of cooperation. Lip service isnt going to cut it, only community service. I do believe to some extent in the NYC model that if you clamp down on quality of life problems, you do head off larger problems down the road...I think that definitely needs to be one focus. It was clear to me last night that some issues had definite racial divisions, but fortunately, I believe there was also alot more agreement across all lines on some major points as well. I believe the TC is very aware and very sensitive to the issues that any actions may cause...they do not seem to be running headlong into this blindly...all folks should appreciate that. This is not just a law enforcement matter. I think alot of different groups -- the schools and school-based groups, community groups, faith-based groups, DPW, Recreation, arts and other youth based activities and organizations, and so on -- need to be on board and on the same page and there has to be better communication and cooperation between everyone involved. The people involved need to be brought into one room, if not literally, at least figuratively. Alot of individuals and groups have already gone above and beyond to try and improve matters and provide more positive and meaningful outlets for teens in these towns. Unfortunately, I think alot of those efforts would have greater impact if all those involved were aware of what everyone else was doing. In most cases, its simple unawareness...in few cases, I dont doubt there is a fiefdom mentality on top of what some folks are trying to accomplish. If the fine resources that are the involved people of this town (these two towns really) are unified, the efforts can be better directed and the attempts to organize, fund, start and maintain those efforts will have a greater chance of achieving maximum success, of having a real impact. Give the kids themselves a meaningful role to have input and be involved. The Township has a Youth Advisory Committee provision and I know its been talked about resurrecting it...re-institute and expand it. I agree with Art and others, it was a good meeting last night. But only time will tell how good...it wont have been as good as it ought to have been unless the next meeting makes progress, is even better and more productive. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 356 Registered: 3-2005 |
News flash: I just started to type this post, and looking out my window I saw two women walking up the street in the middle of the road -- two nicely dressed women, one Asian and one Caucasian. Maybe we should get some cameras up here to prove to people that black kids are not the only people in Maplewood not using the sidewalks -- they're just the only people whose doing it makes other people post comments "animals" on MOL and advocated jail time. I watched the town meeting last night on television and learned something: the reasons we have an increase in gang members in Maplewood is because of "pro-active" measures in Irvington that have displaced gang members here. And the reason New Jersey has an increase in gang members overall is because New Jersey sends so many kids to jail. That's the problem with these "black youth control" ordinances that are being proposed: They are mechanism for creating gang members. People advocating "tough" measures are really talking about taking ordinary kids and putting them in jail, where they will be forced to affiliate with a gang just to survive. And when they get out of jail, where are they going to go but to come back to Maplewood, older and harder and with a new set of associations? And then somebody will be putting up a chart saying: "We now have six times as many people here with "gang affiliations! My god, we need cameras everyhwere, and tougher laws" -- and out of doing the wrong thing, they will get a worse result. JerryC's reaction to last night's TC meeting reminds me of a post that Dave Ross put up after Colin Powell spoke to the UN. Dave thought people must "be on LSD" if they didn't want to invade Iraq after watching Powell hold up that vial of anthrax and tell us if we didn't act now, our problems would only grow. Chief Cimino is a damn sight more honest and appealing than Colin Powell, but his vague references to "identifying people involved with gangs" were amazingly vague, and when asked directly for specific numbers and meanings of words, he handed off to somebody else who knew more. The anti-gang expert who was asked to come testify immediately confessed to the audience he "didn't know the details" about Maplewood. Despite this being the only time a town had ever asked his office to speak to the community, apparently the gang situation in Maplewood is so low-grade this officer didn't even think it was worth his time to look up the details. Is there real crime in Maplewood? The chief showed us some circles on a map, but it was kind of stunning that he spent no time discussing car robbery and burglary. I didn't hear him address those issues at all. Assault, rape? Not talked about. This was a meeting billed as "Public Safety" and yet the crimes we most fear and how to be protected from them weren't discussed. As for the residents of Jacoby Street and other "hot spots" as it was termed by former mayor Jerry Ryan, I didn't hear any commitments made to increase police presence there. Sending schoolkids to jail for six months for blocking the road isn't going to put a dent in crime or gang presence on Jacoby Street. Not unlike the reval, there are some people who will never give up the gang story and use it as a pretext for crackdowns that fit their ideologies about "outsiders." Like I said, if you want to have a lot more kids with gang affiliations in Maplewood, you can create the perfect factory for making them: Arrest them for a lot of "disorderly conduct" violations, put them in the Essex county jail for six months, and you'll have a brand new gang member coming back to Maplewood. And if you've put their parents in jail as well, some of these kids will be coming back to broken families deep in debt with legal bills. The presentation last night was truly instructive. I never fail to be impressed with those who come to speak at town hall, and how far removed it is from the world of MOL, not only in civility, but in reality. MOL amplifies a very reactionary streak in town, whereas the town meetings represent a true kaliedescope of experiences and approches, and I commend Fred for sending out postcards to everybody. At the end of last night's meeting, the police were asked to provide specific numbers and definitions about gang activity In Maplewood. It really has to be on the table, in the open. Why are we hiding facts about crime? And we also need to know what the police are doing to stop car robbery, burglary, rape, etc. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 357 Registered: 3-2005 |
Oh -- and once again: The police chief was given all the time he needed to talk about crime and assualts in Memorial Park and other parks, and it never came up. In fact, a soft-spoken white-haired woman who identified herself as living on Woodland Rd. specifically got up to question whether the new ordinances would mean we could no longer "stroll in the park on a balmy evening." Another woman got up and detailed problems with Borden Park, but not once did she talk about assaults. I made reference above to recently taking friends from India for a walk through the park because (a) it was my most recent experience, not my only one in 10 years and (b) I wanted to underscore that I wouldn't take foreign guests there if I thought I was exposing them to danger or going to give them a bad impression of America and where I lived. Many people enjoy walking in Memorial Park on a balmy evening and do so without incident. I think more garbage cans would be a good thing, too. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ken Scout Citizen Username: Lightningken Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2005 |
Some of the prior posts seem to be implying that there is a conspiracy to create fear among us so we can tighten up our laws for the sake of reducing our civil liberties, becase we just love to do that, now don't we? In addition to the anecdotal evidence supporting the existance of a problem, the notion is bolstered by the available data; the Chief of Police, the Mayor and the NJ State Police dept all feel this is a very valuable use of their time, so what else needs to happen to stop the obstructionist thinking that seems to be driven by a fear of a greater conspiracy? The town is taking a very constructive approach to what they can control which is the laws, the police and the public domain that they oversee. All the other items listed as being necessary to help solve these problems are outside of the scope of this forum, and should be taken up with their respective organizations. Loitering, and unsupervised packs of teenagers/young adults (who happen to be the high-crime demographic) are generally unacceptable anywhere you go in this country....residents don't want it, business owners don't want it, and the law-abiding grown-ups don't want it. It's so hard for groups to find a place to congregate, that they will spring up where ever there is leniency (thus the existance of Mall-Rats). If you let a bad element come....it will, because everyone else is scrambling to plug the holes and problems in their towns. The key is to provide no alternative but for young adults to find positive outlets through which to spend time with their buds...and there is no shortage of regular, frequent options in this town for kids (and parents) of all ages to pursue. An ordinance dissallowing packs of kids walking through the street doesn't commit these jaywalkers to jail and a life of Gang oriented crime. What it does is simply allow a police officer to say "Scram". I trust our guys will use their discretion wisely. And if they don't, I have no doubt, that there will be PLENTY of concerned citizens ready to scream about abuses. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11028 Registered: 1-2003  |
By the sound of the story about the police arresting the high school kids at the middle school, the police went overboard. If that's true, I hope the town deals with it as such. However, that doesn't mean it's a pattern. The woman who spoke whose son was one of those arrested implied that it is, or at least that it could be. That remains to be seen. A single incident does not constitute a trend. Or, as statisticians say, you can't draw a straight line through a single point. The guy who spoke at length about racism and respect was named Matthew Johnson. If I heard him right, he will be upset if he learns that a disproportionate number of blacks are apprehended for crime. Fair enough, but what if crime is committed disproportionately by blacks? That is not necessarily proof of bigotry or racial profiling. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 1836 Registered: 5-2001 |
To be fair to Matthew Johnson - and I didn't agree with everything or even that much he had to say - he stated at the meeting that he would be upset if he learned that a disproportionate number of blacks are apprehended for crime and go through the Essex County Court system as compared to a similar white kid committing the same "crime" and going through the municipal system. I didn't think it was fair to let him speak as long as he did and even if the TC wanted to comment, it is clear there is a pending or proposed legal action against Maplewood surrounding the events from last June. I understand he's done this before at other TC meetings. And yes, while there are instances of WWB or DWB (walking while black, driving while black) there may of course still be more crime committed disproportionately by blacks as well. While the lack of respect issue from the police may be valid so is the lack of respect towards the police and other authority figures valid as well. Chicken/egg? I still feel that kids walking 5 abreast down the middle of the street are doing something that our current laws and ordinances can appropriately deal with. I thought an interesting comment from the meeting was why should that infraction be met with 6 months in jail but someone going 40 mph down my block, if caught, wouldn't get that. They are both safety issues and both quality of life and respect for other issues. Wendy Lauter | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| mtierney Citizen Username: Mtierney Post Number: 876 Registered: 3-2001 |
We watched the meeting on TV - the coverage was the best yet IMHO for the TC meetings - good sound and a camera view which took in the SRO crowd. I hope it is rerun for those who missed it. However, I could not believe the comments made by Huemer at the end! He told the people that since they wanted good law enforcement as discussed, they must be willing to see an increase in taxes! It appeared to me that he presented a dare to those in the audience - you're asking for tax hikes!  Please, do you mean that the exorbitant taxes already ($20K for me) do not cover crime prevention? To his credit, Fred tried to mollify Huemer's remarks by suggesting there may be other ways to generate money. Profeta also made an interesting defense for the sale of the Dunnell building to private interests (implied there were multiple possibilities) with a quid pro quo deal for a developer to provide a location for youth activities. (Huemer had suggested the PDH remain in the town's hands and be converted for youth purposes.) All in all, a very informative evening of prime time TV! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11030 Registered: 1-2003 |
I hope this doesn't become a long discussion of taxes, but while our taxes are high, it doesn't mean it will cover all expenses. If we need to spend more money on enforcement, I think it will be well spent, and send me (and all of us) the bill. Fred also warned us to be careful of what we ask for. With greater enforcement, we are all more likely to receive tickets for speeding, walking in the street, etc. I used to travel a lot through Highland Park, NJ, where enforcement is too strenuous, but I would like to move in that direction. If it becomes too much, we'll deal with it. Right now, it's too little. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rick B Citizen Username: Ruck1977 Post Number: 918 Registered: 8-2003 |
I personally don't buy into the police respecting youth point. Ask yourself, what is the reason that this police officer is speaking to that particular youth? Most cases (I would imagine) mean that the police officer was called about some sort of disturbance, that youth is in the vicinity, and is being questioned. Its not sesame street here, the cop is coming to investigate some sort of reported odd behavior, not coming over for a fireside chat. The police are responsible for enforcing the law, and should have some intimidating presence about them. Its not about respect and courtesy when there is a potential crime being committed. Any kids, white or black, should know that they are judged on their behavior and appearance by other. Its a fact. If you look like a group of hoodlems on the corner, people are going to treat you as if you are a bunch of hoodlems on the corner, whether you are or not. If you don't want to be treated like a group of hoodlems on the corner, don't hang out on the corner looking like a bunch of hoodlems. Go do your homework! --------------- I wish I heard more about the story about the trespsassing kids. But, hello, has anyone seen the movie Lean On Me? Kids coming into the school to sell drugs and collect money ring any bells? Thats the first thing that went through my head. What possible reason do these high school kids have going into a middle school in the middle of the day (or any time for that matter)? Do we know what happened with the police? Perhaps the kids were told to leave the premises or they would be arrested for trespassing, and wouldn't. If I were a law enforcement official, not only would I think about the Lean On Me scenario, but I would want those kids out of the school ASAP. Not only that, but sending a message to others who might try the same thing would cross my mind as well. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| harold Citizen Username: Harold Post Number: 338 Registered: 5-2001 |
Wow, a State Police expert on gangs and the police chief are poo-poo'ed for "exagerating" a gang presence in town by "concerned" citizens who probably don't even live on the east [problem] side of town [that hissing sound?..their property values deflating]. And somehow, I just don't think we're going to see Tom Rheingold on Jacoby St. after 10:00PM any time soon!!!! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3811 Registered: 12-2001 |
Kathleen, I humbly apologize for calling people who walk in the middle of the street animals. That was an insult to animals everywhere from the lowliest invertebrate up to and including gorillas and chimpanzees. My most vivid recollection of morons in the street is almost running over two women who apparently confused Wyoming Avenue with a jogging track at 0600 hrs. There were in the street, not on the shoulders. Had I been speeding or distracted, some poor policeman would be explaining to some kids that their mothers were dead. And I would no longer qualify for the Geico savings. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2281 Registered: 5-2001 |
I was impressed that Mayor Profeta opened the meeting with, in part, an acknowlegement that African-Americans could be disproportionately affected by the passage of some of these ordinances. (Both for good and for bad since blacks are disproportionately victims of crimes, too.) Fred made it clear that the Community Coalition has been invited to take a proactive advisory role to try to avoid the pitfalls of racial profiling. Overall I thought the meeting was a pretty good start for a dialogue on the issues, IMO. There's a lot of work ahead of us, folks. In the meantime, the kinds of conversations that Greenetree describes with kids who litter, etc. should be taking place all over town. A story from Jersey City. The other night I had to stay at school until 8 p.m. for an Open House. Walking to my car afterward I saw 3 young men, apparently buddies, and one guy who was about 15 to 20 years older than the youths. Apparently the kids had clowned around pretending they were going to hassle the guy. He took the opportunity to give them a straight up talk about their own safety. As I passed them I overheard him say: "What if I were someone who'd been robbed recently and had decided I needed to carry a gun for my protection? Do you realize that at least one of you would probably be dead right now? You cannot play games like this." I can't tell you how good I felt hearing this man (AA) taking the time to speak to these kids (also AA) in this manner. It renews my sense of hope. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Drew Hearon Citizen Username: Dhearon Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2005 |
TC events on TV? Please share which channels these are typically found and how often this occurs. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Meandtheboys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 2181 Registered: 12-2004  |
What channel is the meeting televised on? I tried to find it last night with no luck. I'd like to know in case it's broadcast again. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11034 Registered: 1-2003 |
Harold, is that a challenge? I'll meet you at 10pm on Jacoby St if you like. If you were implying something, I'd prefer if you stated it directly. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Drew Hearon Citizen Username: Dhearon Post Number: 44 Registered: 2-2005 |
...and I second the motion for 6 mos jail for speeders, particularly on Ridgewood Rd (or should I say Ridgewood Highway). From what I've read, speed bumps are a major deterent to both speeding and car theft. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2284 Registered: 5-2001 |
Meand: depends which town you live in and whether you have cable. In Maplewood it's channel 35. If you don't have cable you cannot receive CCN. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rick B Citizen Username: Ruck1977 Post Number: 919 Registered: 8-2003 |
Channel 35 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| harold Citizen Username: Harold Post Number: 339 Registered: 5-2001 |
No, not a challenge,but you have to go by yourself, can't have James Brown protect you. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11036 Registered: 1-2003 |
You still haven't stated your motivation for making your conjecture. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 879 Registered: 2-2002 |
STEEL REPORTS his impressions, (it was a long night so I have a lot): A. I was disappointed that their weren't any cookies. Seriously though, -The place was packed to the rafters and there were over 25 speakers from the audience. I was happy to see that there were many thoughtful positions spoken from. Some of the highlights, (in no particular order): The Mayor did a nice job of laying out the agenda and the TC's thoughts. (I understand that Ken also spoke early which I unfortunately missed, -sorry Ken). Chief Cimino had a Powerpoint presentation that I believe would be useful to bear additional study of as sometimes charts and statistics raise more questions than they answer. The State Trooper told us a shooting story from Lakewood and kept saying things like, "like you wouldn't believe". The gentleman from South Orange said, (among many things) that he was afraid of State Troopers particularly on the GSP and I saw almost all the many black faces in the audience nodding in understanding including those who disagreed with other things he said. Quite a few people were angry about some of the things that he had to say. Others cheered at some points. There was initially rapt attention and then steady muttering in the audience during his speech. (BTW it would of course be wrong IMO to dismiss what any residents from S.O. have to say, -particularly who are parents with children in the same school system since the two towns are so related.) Everybody liked the guy who said he didn't know that he was going to be asked to speak. He thought he had only signed an "attendance list". At one point he said something about getting a hamburger. He was applauded. People also liked the guy that has been living here since 1938 and said that things have gotten "suddenly" much worse, "I'd say in the last ten years" in regards to profane language, herds of students, loud mufflers, "I guess they're sort-of mufflers, I don't know, they're loud I can tell you that. I guess these guys are trying to prove they're macho ya know". -There was something very good-natured and affable about the guy that made everybody chuckle though his concerns were serious. I thought that the two girls from Columbia raised an excellent point that perhaps students also should have been notified of the meeting and should certainly be included in the discussion since they, in particular are so much at the focus of what is being discussed. There was also a young black student from Columbia who calmly spoke of he and his friends constantly being approached by the police for doing "nothing at all, nothing at all" and that in that regard there was no respect from the police who would only very sharply ask; "Hey where ya going? what are you doing?" I gained a great deal of new first-hand empathy for some of the distress of the people living with difficult circumstances in the particularly stressed areas, -including the woman who related a great deal of details of Borden Park. (which I live near BTW). Perhaps somewhat to the chagrin of those present in authority, -she had numerous complaints about graffiti not being attended to, the park not being cared for, (underbrush where kids hide etc), and of police sometimes not being aware of existing ordinances, (such as persons are already not supposed to be in that park after sunset), or police not being pro-active enough. There was one particularly impressive, (impressive in the regard that she was not angry but simply expressing a simple desire) young mother, (who lives off Irvington Ave), who apparently came from a much worse area than Maplewood for, as she said, -"the quality of life". She hoped that in that regard that she and her son would not suddenly be made criminals or "suspects", (a word that stuck in my mind), by the new ordinances simply for hanging out with friends and talking on the street, -doing "normal things" that she came here to enjoy. Carol Buchanan read a statement as a representative from the Hilton neighborhood association that seemed to largely agree with most of what was in the proposed ordinances with a mention of keeping an eye to civil liberties. James Brown's name is actually James Brown. He thanked the police for their efforts and was very much in favor of the cameras being installed on Jacoby. He was very laid-back despite his propensity to use exclamation points online. Jerry Ryan expressed reluctance to use surveillance cameras and suggested that perhaps they might first "try one in a van". One guy said he jogs in the street as do a lot of other joggers and so he hoped that that would not be made illegal. Another young black man from the Seth Boyden area expressed that he thought that there was "definitely profiling" going on. His evidence was expressed in the form of a question, -"What's with all the police cruising in the Seth Boyden area?" -The Mayor, then against his own wishes to engage in dialogue with speakers pointed out to the young man that 90% of the police activity was "complaint driven" -thus the police where in that area because people where calling them there. -That statistic raises a very interesting talking point, -as several persons did, -that perhaps police activity being 90% complaint-driven is too high a number, -that police could perhaps be more proactive in preventing situations from reaching a level where they require a complaint call. -The statistic is certainly a two-edged sword. Several people expressed concerns about the "parent responsibility" ordinance as it could be potentially unfairly damaging to some parents already in distress by not taking varied and unique circumstances into consideration, (such as a completely out-of-control kid who could use "counseling", single parent, kid hates the parent, etc etc). One gentleman also said that "in America we don't make people pay for another person's crime, -that that is a big leap." Other people pointed out that parents are already liable civilly for any damages of their child but that potential jail-time is a whole other story. (I personally expect that there would be legal challenges to this ordinance if attempt was made to actually put a parent in jai). Other people thought the parent thing was a good idea. Several expressed the thought that in regards to some of the proposed penalties, that a potential $1,000 fine or 6 MONTHS in jail for blocking traffic as compared to other infractions such as speeding is a bit over-the-top. I would have to certainly agree with that and I hope it will be addressed. The returning Vic DeLuca did not speak publicly though I expect that he will soon in the future as he, and not Ian will be the one voting on much of this stuff in Jan-Feb. (as pointed out by a smiling Ian). Ian also expressed reluctance about the cameras and concern for civil liberties. David Huemer asked the police about what were the criteria for establishing a gang member and how many had they established as such as (7) had been a recent (last?) year figure. The police could not at that time give a number, though the Mayor said something about a "confidential report" and that although they didn't know precisely the number, that it was "certainly higher". David also mentioned that the present Dunnell street police station would, could and should be in the future used as a "youth center". He pointed out that such an expense as other potential expenses related to this issue will not happen unless people consider it a worthwhile priority. (the dreaded increased taxes bugaboo). The Mayor suggested that a youth center could perhaps be worked in with plans with a developer and as such "we might be able to get other folks to pay for a lot of this stuff", -Also in that regard he mentioned available state funds as state politicians consider this area very important to the health of NJ as a model town and do not want to see it fail. David also pointed out that people always want strict enforcement of the laws "until the get a speeding ticket". (Chief Cimino smiled and nodded). David continued by saying. "I'm not trying to be cynical but that is the way people are". He pointed out that if perhaps we were going to be fining some students for walking two or more abreast that perhaps we should also fine, (would have to fine by implication), a couple moms who were also walking two abreast with their strollers. _______________________________ And so the process continues. I myself did not speak as at this point. Besides being relatively shy I really wanted to hear what everybody else had to say in person. -Which makes for quite a different vibe than online -Something about the immediacy of the townhall group hum. -the instant human reactions to things. So far I have not really heard anything to change my own previous positions though I have a deeper respect for those that are different. I believe that I may calmly speak my own three-minutes worth at the next TC meeting which is Dec 6th. The Mayor has asked the Chief to make his Powerpoint presentation of the "CCTV" surveillance cameras at that meeting. It should be in interesting as I have a few questions about cost comparissons to other things, effectiveness, relative need, objections etc. It would be good if something close to the numbers that showed up last night may attend. Still calm. Carry on. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 358 Registered: 3-2005 |
Rick B, The police chief went out of his way last night to insist to the public that people are not being questioned by the police merely because of their appearance or their friends' appearance. And several people -- including outgoing TC member Ian Grodman -- expressed well-justified concerns about overly subjective judgments about who looks like a "hoodlum" and who doesn't. And the "inevitably escalating threat" argument just won't fly, partly because it's become so tired. This is a community that has the capacity and the means to create smarter alternatives to dragnets and profiling, and to foresee the consequences of how dividing the town by age and race could be the worst thing that ever happened to it. Kids need an outlet, as Ken Scout points out above. One of the worst aspects of car-driven suburban life is the extent to which isolates everybody, subtly destroying community, and community is what keeps out crime and prevents unreasonable fear and rumor. I've got no problem with the police telling kids or anybody not to block traffic or not get too raucous. But as one kid pointed out last night, you should be inviting kids to these meetings to get them into the process. That would be a start on some respect. People move to Maplewood because it still retains a sense of that community. My neighbors and I frequently stop our cars and talk out the windows with each other. We flag each other down to catch up on the latest. It would be a real mistake to start zealously enforcing laws against that behavior, and twice the mistake to enforce it selectively against black people. I see people on MOL want to keep talking about those damn kids, but I for one wish the discussion from the TC would move to specifics about how to support greater safety for the residents of Jacoby Street and other areas, and providing specifics about what is being billed as a "gang presence" and how it relates to any criminal activity here. Overall, the "war on drugs", which does nothing to decrease the suburban market for drugs, is creating gangs and gangs members who get cycled through the jails and returned to the streets. It not only wastes a huge amount of money, it creates criminals. This is true everywhere in New Jersey, and outside the state as well. People who don't like gangs should be lobbying to repeal drug laws and end the phony war on drugs. And to the extent you know we'll be out of Iraq sooner than we'll face the failure of the drug war, you can figure out how foolish and counterproductive it is to make enemies out of Maplewood's youth because you're annoyed at the sight of teenagers hanging out. Let's spend what resources we have helping out those neighborhoods with the hands-on policing they need. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| harold Citizen Username: Harold Post Number: 340 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ah, first have lunch, then think about it!! |
