| Author | Message | ||
     Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 6811 Registered: 5-2001 |
As I understand it, an eruv is symbolic but not necessarily a symbol in the visual sense. Rather, it is a mechanism which permits certain people with self-imposed, highly restrictive customs to relax those customs to a more tolerable degree through a convenient mechanism. If this mechanism requires approval by the town, so be it. I have yet to be convinced that the establishment of a eruv in Maplewood is going to have a negative impact on anyone. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14326 Registered: 10-2001  |
I am not sure that most people on TV saw the full thing. But I can tell you that the gentleman is deadly serious about a lawsuit. I fully expect that we shall see a letter in the News-Record about it tom'w (I have a copy but will not post it since I didn't get permission). While the BOE is facing a challenge to allow the playing of religious music in the schools (from the right), the TC is facing a challenge to ensure that religious symbols do not appear in Ricalton Square (it would appear from the left). **Edited to Add** These cases are by no means related. Fascinating stuff. Where's my man Nohero? We need a sanity check. | ||
| njphilf Citizen Username: Njphilf Post Number: 183 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yet Christmas carols are banned from the "holiday" show at CHS. Go figure... Thanks Mr Gold...Maplewood owes it all to you. | ||
| jeffl Supporter Username: Jeffl Post Number: 1475 Registered: 8-2001 |
I'm embarrassed to say that I saw the entire thing myself...and the awarding of the liquor license to Art and Bradley. I agree with you S, a lawsuit is probably already in the works. That guy looked like there's nothing he would rather do than spend the next year of his life working on a suit. | ||
| jamie Citizen Username: Jamie Post Number: 320 Registered: 6-2001  |
S, I caught the whole episode as well. Do you have the language that he wanted to put on a sign? I wouldn't think you'd need permission to post that since he wanted it public on the first place and it was stated in a public forum. We should probably start a new thread for it. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2425 Registered: 6-2002 |
Apparently this community is so diverse that not only do we have people who hate blacks and gays, we also have anti-semites. Accomodating religious observance is not endorsing religion. Do those of you who have a negative reaction to the eruv get upset when you hear on the radio "alternate side of the street parking is suspended for the religious holiday"? A group of Maplewood citizens asks their Township Committee for a little help in accomodating their needs. What's wrong with that? If St. George's or Morrow Methodist asks for a little relaxation of parking rules on Ridgewood Road on Sundays, would that be a big deal? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14331 Registered: 10-2001 |
I do but it's probably unfair to the gentleman to have it posted here before his letter is printed. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 2751 Registered: 9-2001  |
Two comments on the eruv: 1. A friend of mine used to say that this is why many Jews become lawyers--we are trained at an early age to find clever ways around restrictive laws (I guess rather than becoming revolutionaries and changing the restrictive laws themselves). 2. What good is an eruv if there is no Orthodox shul within easy walking distance? Unless someone is planning on building a larger Orthodox shul in Maplewood (and has the zoned land ready to go), or converting an existing building, I don't see a large influx of Orthodox moving in en masse simply because we have an eruv. | ||
| yabbadabbadoo Citizen Username: Yabbadabbadoo Post Number: 280 Registered: 11-2003  |
"THE WORLD'S MAJOR RELIGIONS AROSE FROM FEAR--FEAR OF DEATH, FEAR OF THINGS NOT UNDERSTOOD, FEAR OF OTHER GROUPS. MANY SECTS AROSE FROM LITTLE MORE THAN A POWER STRUGGLE AMONG A RELIGION'S LEADERS. THE ESSENCE OF A RELIGION IS BLIND FAITH IN ITS TENETS--TENETS SUCH AS A VIRGIN BIRTH OR GOLD TABLETS IN A NEW YORK MOUNTAIN. TODAY WE HAVE FEARFUL, CLOSE-MINDED PEOPLE WHO BLINDLY CLAIM TO SEE WHETHER EVOLUTION OR A GOD PRODUCED PARTICULAR DIATOMS OR BUTTERFLIES. THESE AND MANY OTHER RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ARE NO MORE THAN FERVENTLY HELD SUPERSTITIONS. THEY ARE ENTITLED TO THE SAME RESPECT AS THE ROMANS' READINGS OF BIRD ENTRAILS, THE AZTEC'S HUMAN SACRIFICES, ALCHEMY, AND ASTROLOGY. WORST OF ALL, RELIGION HAS BROUGHT NOT PEACE AND JOY BUT DEATH AND SUFFERING--MASS MURDERS OF JEWS BY CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS, MASS MURDERS OF MUSLIMS BY HINDUS, MASS MURDERS OF BAHAIS BY MUSLIMS, WARS BETWEEN SHIA AND SUNNI MUSLIMS, WARS BETWEEN CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS, WARS BETWEEN CATHOLIC AND PROTESTANT CHRISTIANS, WARS BETWEEN JEWS AND MUSLIMS, WAR BETWEEN BUDDHISTS AND HINDUS. IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT FOR YOUR CHILDREN AND THE WORLD?" Ain't TiVo great? (I gotta get a secretary!) FF | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8207 Registered: 4-1997  |
1) Govt. shouldn't care what an eruv is, interpret it, or vote regarding one. 2) there is no #2 3) That's the point Jefferson, Washington, Franklin et al were trying to make. Not that those who care can't worship as they like, just that they can't do it in the public sphere. Does anyone get this? It's really painfully simple. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14334 Registered: 10-2001 |
When you talk about Jefferson and Washington do you mean George? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8209 Registered: 4-1997 |
No, Martha. | ||
| Jonathan Teixeira Citizen Username: Jhntxr Post Number: 314 Registered: 10-2005 |
Yes , religion has killed more people than it has saved !! That's why Mr Profeta is right about this . Let us show the world that Maplewood is diverse and inclusive . After all that's why so many of you moved here right ? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14335 Registered: 10-2001 |
Thankfully Martha's show finally died tonight. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8210 Registered: 4-1997 |
The guy at the meeting should sue the town. The only one with guts to vote on it was David Huemer. Everyone else went to hide in the shadows. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4089 Registered: 5-2001 |
Oh? Wouldn't that come under "free exercise thereof"? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8211 Registered: 4-1997 |
Not at all. Otherwise, why not have year-round passion plays in schools? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14336 Registered: 10-2001 |
Actually the only one not to vote on it was Ms. Leventhal who abstained ("waiting for the Township Attorney to review it"). Mr. Huemer voted in favor of his petition and the others voted against it. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8212 Registered: 4-1997 |
Thanks for the correction. My Lasso of Omniscience has been acting up these days. Needs an oil change, i think. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14338 Registered: 10-2001 |
 You know, there's a new model with sealed bearings. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14339 Registered: 10-2001 |
Hey, how come that thing isn't spinning? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8213 Registered: 4-1997 |
Hey, is it true the super talented boys and gals at Sbenois Engineering are finalizing design of the Sbenois Ultra-Eruvim™, a four-piece set of burnished bronze that can be mounted at the north and south poles, Hawaii and England, which will basically make the entire planet safe for baby strollers and rain hats on Saturdays -- even for non-Jews? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8214 Registered: 4-1997 |
oh it's spinning. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3144 Registered: 5-2001  |
Dave, I guess you are being sarcastic, but your comments only fuel the debate on the issue. This is NOT about government sanctioned worshiping in public. This is about a symbolic gesture which will make those people who follow this rule more comfortable. Like others said, it is no different than the "K" or "pareve" symbols that already exist on the vast majority of the food in your pantry and which most people don't even know exists. It has zero impact on those who don't follow the strict adherence of these laws of Judaism and therefore should be a non-issue to everyone else. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8215 Registered: 4-1997 |
It shouldn't be an issue on a government agenda here or anywhere. It doesn't really matter how big or little it impacts anything. There shouldn't be votes on it. Let religious organizations cut deals with private property owners to put metal markers up. It's all posturing b.s. and it's used wrongly by both the religious group asking and the pandering politicians who follow like their bequeathing diversity on a community. Total bs. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1207 Registered: 3-2002 |
I'm depressed. I (mostly) respectfully disagree with the Orthodox on many aspects of Judaism, but I fully support their desire to have an eruv, as long as they bear the cost. An eruv is not "worshiping in the public sphere". It is not a religious symbol, but a religious facilitation, much like giving a day off for Christmas, having special parking rules or police support near churches/synagogues on major religious holidays, etc. For that matter, having Town Hall's closure days be Saturday and Sunday is a facilitation of religion for government employees. Why not give them Tuesday and Wednesday off, so that they are there when most office workers are home? An eruv is really a minor thing to ask, and I see no reason to oppose it -- unless you are anti-orthodox or anti-semetic. Compared to Bergen County's laws on Sunday store closures (unfair to Jews who need to do errands!), or the US cities that still have giant crosses on public land (San Francisco recently sold the Mt. Davidson cross and a little land around it, in order to stay legal!), this is really small potatoes. I had so hoped that Maplewood would be one of the suburban towns that could provide the minor convenience of an eruv without this sort of nastiness breaking out. I'm disappointed. As an aside, Tom Reingold, thank you for continuing a tradition of thoughtful, balanced and respectful postings! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3145 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave, But it is OK for the government to spend $500,000 of taxpayer money on a statue? Seems like you want government to butt out...unless it is for something you support.  | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8217 Registered: 4-1997 |
I'm sorry, I thought this was Abuse. Everyone loves being a liberal until it's their beliefs that come into question. Nasty little rules our founders made, aren't they? What WERE they thinking? Very inconvenient and damned tough to live up to.  | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10038 Registered: 5-2001 |
Back to the Mennorah in Ricalton Square. How do you feel about a Nativity scene next to it? I believe the Supremes have endorsed both, as long as the rules are inclusive. For the record I don't have a problem with either, nor do I have a problem with an atheist exhibit. I lived in Flushing back around 1970 when an Eruv as put up. It started as fishing line, but other congregations didn't find that sufficient and there ended up being a major bruhaw on the subject, both within the Orthodox community and the secular community. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 2948 Registered: 5-2001 |
Someone mentioned parking accommodations ... Actually, in the one case I am aware of regarding parking near a church, the TC voted to put in restrictions that made it more difficult for the church in question. I refer to the limitations on parking on Sunday only on certain streets near the hispanic church on Parker Avenue (the former Christ Lutheran church building.) Those restrictions effectively eliminate a good portion of the reasonable parking for those attending worship at that church. Those of us in other churches in the area, were (and remain) concerned about those restrictions being put in place which made it more difficult for the church and certainly seemed to cross the church-state line a bit. Many churches in town do not have their own parking lots (and cannot possibly obtain the necessary real estate to put them in these days), so restrictions on street parking are a significant obstacle in cases like this. I'm not suggesting reopening this issue now, but it would be wrong to suggest that the township routinely provides parking accommodations for places of worship, since historically the opposite has occurred. And I think that the eruv is fine. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11501 Registered: 1-2003  |
Dave, What's the public sphere? Sounds like you're saying praying in public is wrong, but perhaps I'm reading you wrong. What do you mean? | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 398 Registered: 1-2004 |
I think the orthodox are an insular group. If we facilitate their public religious needs, it could attract a growing orthodox population. WIll they want to be a part of our community? Do they use public schools (for instance, in Brooklyn) or do they demand private needs that our public schools would have to pay for? An eruv is not like a Christmas tree or a Menorah which are symbols. They don't facilitate anything. I don't think we ought to allow the eruv. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2094 Registered: 7-2003 |
My cousin lived in Toms River, and three Hasidic families moved into his development after buying lots that connected to each other. They then set up there own eruv joining the three lots, creating a Common living area. Then an adjacent lot was up for sale and these three families bought it and sold it to another Hasidic family. The eruv continued to spread through out the development. Eventually my cousin sold his house (at a far price) to a Hasidic family. Now almost the entire development is owned by Hassidic Jews, they have their own eruv, and that area is well known and the Hassidic section. I think that Maplewood and South Orange are diverse and there really shouldn’t be a Hassidic area, Jewish hill, gay block, Old fart way, or Democrat retreat. By erecting an eruv town wide, it allows the Hasidic families to be dispersed through out the community and keep the diversity of the town. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1210 Registered: 3-2002 |
Sure, a Christmas tree facilitates caroling, and a menorah facilitates a public menorah-lighting ceremony! An eruv facilitates orthodox Jews day-to-day lives on their sabbath. Crabby makes it quite clear what this is about...objection to an eruv is about fear that more orthodox will move to town. If people suggested that the town should make policies to discourage blacks, gays, hispanics, caucasians, etc. from moving to town, I would be equally disappointed. To avoid the eruv might be legal, but it would amount to redlining, or something similar. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10042 Registered: 5-2001 |
Susan, there is a difference between making a policy to discourage a group and making a policy to encourage a group. I don't have an issue with the eruv, but your logic is faulty. | ||
| Fight the power Citizen Username: Tookiew Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2005 |
We can talk about freedom all we want, but the question is, what kind of people do we want to move here? SHould Profeta and his lackies be allowed to make one school a pro-creationist school, so that we can entice right wingers to move here? I imagine there would be a great upcry if that happened. | ||
| Jonathan Teixeira Citizen Username: Jhntxr Post Number: 322 Registered: 10-2005 |
What kind of people do we want to move here ?? Well , let's see , liberals , and people that really do not give a rat's ••• what the liberals in office do ... | ||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 286 Registered: 4-2002 |
Why does the eruv need to be endorsed or denied by the town? Can't the people who want it just do what Brett's neighbors do and construct their own? If its something non-invasive like putting a piece of ribbon on a tree, why can't they just approach the property owners in question and ask? Its not like there asking everyone on the block to put up a statue of Mary (or something religiously overt) in their front yard. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3146 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tookie, Government makes such decisions all the time - why are pawn shops and "adult" establishments not permitted in Maplewood or South Orange? Because government has decided they don't want "those kind of people" here. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8220 Registered: 4-1997 |
There have to be wires connecting it together, like an imaginary walled city, so it has to cross streets. |
