| Author | Message | ||
     Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10044 Registered: 5-2001 |
..and maybe people's back yards since there are a lot of streets that run from Maplewood into other towns, which should make for some interesting situations.  | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 399 Registered: 1-2004 |
susan- that's a once a year celebration (caroling and menorah lighting) - not needed for people to actually live day to day. Huge difference. The orthodox people are known for not wanting to be a part of the community at large. Why would we entice them to come here? Should we entice Iraqis to move in? Terrorists? Should we tell every woman they must be veiled so that the muslim people feel comfortable? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11505 Registered: 1-2003  |
I think any thought given to keeping people out based on ethnicity or religion is bigotry. I find it very ugly. What would your religious leaders say about that sort of thought or action? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8221 Registered: 4-1997  |
Bobk, I'm guessing existing utility wires will be used for the most part. | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 400 Registered: 1-2004 |
It's not keeping them out (it is their personal decision not to live without an eruv). It's just not encouraging them. On the other hand, maybe there should be an eruv erected around the whole darn country. | ||
| stefano Citizen Username: Stefano Post Number: 469 Registered: 2-2002  |
Who wants to carry things on Saturday anyway? dr stefano | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10047 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave, I think it has to be a continuous unbroken wire of some sort. I think there is some debate in the Orthodox community on what is acceptable and what is not. I didn't see the TC meeting and I don't know exactly what was proposed. | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 920 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dave, (or anyone), -Has it been firmly established that any markers need to be put up since the eruv is townwide? -A authoritative voice on that portion of the discussion would be useful. ___________________________ PS: as a point of minor clarification from a post above about the town restricting parking to the church on Parker; -It can be noted that that was done strictly as a matter of needed public safety. -If anyone were to previously drive out from one of the side streets near that church on a Sunday you were in grave, (pun intended), danger of being t-boned by oncoming Parker traffic as you would be completely blind due to the obstruction of a plethora of Parker-parked parishioners. Carry on. | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 732 Registered: 11-2001 |
Some points of clarity. * I think some of the posters are conflating Orthodox Judaism with Hasidism. They are not one and the same. * If an eruv were erected and nobody saw it (i.e., if it were a fishing wire around the town's perimeter) not a one of us (who is not an Orthodox Jew) would even feel the impact. We might see women pushing strollers on their way to shul on Shabbat, but how would that affect any others of us? An eruv certainly does not mean that anyone would be engaging in some public display of religion (although, one might argue that we all publicly practice our religion if we treat others according to its tenets). * An eruv is hardly a public symbol of religion. Again, it's virtually invisible. To equate this to a creche or a menorah or any other seasonal holiday edifice is absurd. (Incidentally, does it really matter if the town erects these seasonal displays? These holidays fall at this time of year, so it seems logical that symbols for both, and any other holidays, would be on display. I don't hear anyone kvetching when pumpkins are on display around Halloween, turkeys around Thanksgiving, or red hearts around Valentine's Day. And don't tell me those are universally celebrated holidays, because they are not.) * "What kind of people do we want to move here?" People who are tolerant of others' beliefs. People who let others practice or not practice their religions as they see fit. NOT people who think that a particular group of people should be kept out. NOT people who resent other religions. I am finding this entire thread disturbing. It seems to be bringing to the surface some underlying negativity and bigotry -- something that I thought our town avoided. There's a reason it's called "Soapbox". | ||
| shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 1104 Registered: 7-2002 |
Most people are completely unaware of how many eruvim exist, or that they even live within an eruv. The Upper West Side and the Upper East Side almost in their entirety are an eruv. Also, most of Park Slope is an eruv: It is bound by Prospect Expressway on the South, 4th Avenue on the West, Flatbush Avenue on the North, and the Prospect Park Drive on the East. | ||
| stefano Citizen Username: Stefano Post Number: 471 Registered: 2-2002 |
Can eruvs overlap or join? If Millburn wanted one, could they use Maplewood's established boundary? | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 921 Registered: 2-2002 |
ess, I agree with your sentiments, -but again, (if you'll indulge me), as a minor useful point of clarification, -are you indeed informing us that there need not be any markers, (virtually invisible or not), within the town, (as opposed to the perimeter), if the entire town is an eruv? -That would seem to me to logically be the case but am curious. | ||
| shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 1105 Registered: 7-2002 |
Stefano, eruvim (the plural of eruv) can join. But in your hypothetical example, Millburn would not need one -- there are no Orthodox synagogues in Millburn. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 6402 Registered: 5-2001  |
Susan's posts have been most eloquent. "What kind of people do we want to move here"? I can't believe that you can say that with a straight face and not call yourself a bigot. What on earth is the difference between you and the little old white lady on my block in Brooklyn back in 1985 who ran around complaining to all the neighbors that a black family had moved onto the block? Hasidim and Orthodox are not the same thing. If you are going to be a bigot, for godssake, try to be a little educated about whom you are discriminating against. | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 736 Registered: 11-2001 |
Steel - from what I understand, no, I do not think there would have to be specific markers in the town if the entire town is an eruv. There just needs to be some sort of physical boundary (usually a wire) around a particular area (be it a courtyard, neighborhood, or town) that designates the area as an eruv. Perhaps someone else could elaborate? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11509 Registered: 1-2003 |
Why is the distinction between Chassidic and Orthodox important? It's bigotry, either way. And another upsetting thing is that those who are ready to discourage certain people from moving here don't recognize their own bigotry. | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 737 Registered: 11-2001 |
Tom - exactly. | ||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 791 Registered: 7-2003 |
OK, then. Those who point out that certain sects practice active discrimination against all others, Jewish or otherwise, are themselves guilty of bigotry. Just wanted to get that straight. . .  | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 277 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'd think that the Hasidic and Orthodox find the distinction pretty important, Tom. Does it matter if there are no Orthodox temples in Millburn or South Orange? Maplewood Jewish Center (Orthodox) is very near the South Orange border and certainly within walking distance of much of South Orange. If Maplewood has an eruv and not the surrounding towns, Orthodox Jews will only move to Maplewood, not the other towns even if they are within walking distance of an Orthodox synagogue. That seems more similar, in effect, to the practice of redlining which someone mentioned earlier, than by not having an eruv. | ||
| shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 1106 Registered: 7-2002 |
Actually, I am mistaken. There is an Orthodox synagogue of the Lubuvatich sect on Millburn Avenue near the high school. Not sure if there is an eruv around there. I'll check. What I meant by my previous post was that it would be a very far walk from Millburn to the Orthodox synagogue in Maplewood. | ||
| Michael Janay Supporter Username: Childprotect Post Number: 2503 Registered: 1-2003  |
This is by far the most disturbing thread I have ever read on MOL. And thats saying something. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11512 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think I agree. What's your take on the issue, Michael? This came up in some other town in a similar way. I don't remember which town. The New Yorker ran a very long article on it and on the general issue of eruvs. It was very balanced, and it led me to understand all sides of the issue. It might have been in 1994. I can't find the article online, though I found mention of it in some footnotes of another article. | ||
| shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 1107 Registered: 7-2002 |
No eruv exists in Millburn. I just checked. Although I think the Chabad of Millburn would like one. | ||
| Urbanretreat Citizen Username: Urbanretreat Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2005 |
Let's be clear - to serve its religious purpose, it must be a permanent, tangible line of demaracation on public property. It is inargubaly a religious symbol/token//manifestation/mark/designation (choose your similar word). It won't affect my daily life, and it might even raise my property value (I don't know if my home falls within the eruv). Consequently, if there are no outlays from the public coffer, my preference is to allow it because it would benefit others. I do hope, however, that the eruv's proponents do not pretend that this is similar to putting up handicap-friendly curbs. Handicapped people aren't a religion. I also hope the eruv's proponents defend the public displays of religiosity by other faiths as vigorously as they defend the eruv here. | ||
| Michael Janay Supporter Username: Childprotect Post Number: 2504 Registered: 1-2003 |
My take is that an Eruv is nothing more than a symbol denoting a community. That should be something we want regardless of religion. Lets call it a "Community ring" instead of an eruv. If it were a fence, or a river, or something that already existed, and a rabbi certifies it as an eruv, there would be no issue. But private groups stringing a wire on telephone polls or other town owned structures, and people freak out. The absolute outright racism and anti semitism on this thread disgusts me, and honestly makes me want to move. Something that all of the insults I've endured in the political soapbox has never done. My only solace is that knowing if I do move, owning a house close to Beth Ephraim, having an eruv will definetly increase my property values. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 6407 Registered: 5-2001 |
I draw the distinction because one culture is insular and the other is not. I am sure that folks will find something contradictory about my stance, but I would not be comfortable with any cultural phenomenon that resulted in a part of town cutting itself off. Whether it be an all-white block that discouraged families from selling to people of color or a spiritual community that considered itself separate from the rest of the town. The town isn't paying for anything. I don't buy the argument that a menorah or tree is different because it is only "once a year". Isn't that arbitrary? We need to spend more time learning about all cultures and respecting those differences. Not separating and segregating. Bigotry and prejudice come from not knowing about something, i.e, ignorance. Not from having a Christmas tree and menorah in a public place or a piece of wire hanging from a utility pole or a rainbow flag flying at town hall in the month of June. You know, the kinds of things that a child can point to and ask "Mom, Dad, what is that"? And the parent can explain that there are all kinds of people in the world and doesn't that make it a wonderful place? Michael is right about this thread. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4596 Registered: 9-2001  |
“I'm not suggesting reopening this issue now, but it would be wrong to suggest that the township routinely provides parking accommodations for places of worship, since historically the opposite has occurred.” I was going to stay clear of this topic but Sac's post was the last straw... Sac, you may not want to reopen the issue, but it was certainly a relevant and an appropriate comparison for you to make! IMHO, there has been more than ample evidence in the past where officials have used the “Parking Card” as a weapon to favor one group of residents over another. The legislated parking restrictions on Sundays at the Hispanic church on Parker made things very difficult for them, and effectively eliminated a good portion of the reasonable parking for those attending worship at that church. Meanwhile, most other churches in town avoided similar restrictions being put in place. The approval of the Eruv Tuesday night at the meeting, (which I attended and also approve of) stands in interesting contrast. The irony of all this will be when they begin installing those strips of plastic for the Jews next to the No Parking Signs installed for the Hispanics just a few blocks up on Parker Avenue. Clearly this new legislation will make it more convenient for worshipers to move to town and to get to worship. In all fairness, I’ll say Maplewood should be more about fairness in dealing for “all” faiths........ “MR. MAYOR, TEAR DOWN THOSE (No Parking) SIGNS! | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 738 Registered: 11-2001 |
Michael is most definitely right about this thread. I have said that I find this thread disturbing, and I reiterate that now. By the way, a few years ago, there was a similar issue in Tenafly, NJ. There was a huge division within the town, with many Jews opposing the eruv. I believe the eruv was not approved in Tenafly. | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 922 Registered: 2-2002 |
ess, -thanks for the info. -I sense that Maplewood will be free from the apparently dreaded, (by some) nearly invisible "construction" of religious symbols. It seems to me that there are two veins of dissent on this issue. 1. Those who think that the Jews are going to take over Maplewood, (which would be hysterical if it weren't so ugly, though equally old in it's "tradition"). 2. Those who object on more righteous constitutional grounds. It seems to me that the constitutional argument cuts both ways as was found in the Tenafly case. As to the second group of dissenters, -it's interesting to me where many people draw the line of the separation of religion and government, -what is seen by some as a pernicious creep of religion into government and those who feel that the government needs to protect the free expression of religion. That line is not always so clear as some would chose to believe. That's why we have courts to help us parse the protections of the constitution. (and of course people do not always agree on the court decisions). There are some so angry and opposed to religion, (as the lawsuit-threatening gentleman at the TC meeting who wants to put up a sign in Ricalton which states the words that "yabadabado" posted above), -that he sees any and all organized religion as a threat to all, (and there is certainly a great deal of historical and present evidence to that which I agree with). Of course there are also legions of people who will tell you passionately how their faith restored or saved their lives and also led them to help the lives of others. (It's just too bad they also so often end up kicking somebody else's butt while declaring their righteousness). When examining any issue such as this we first have to ask ourselves, -What harm, -what threat? This is nothing like putting the ten commandments in the court house where your legal rights would be judged under that shadow or "faith-based initiatives" where tax-payer money goes to religious preference, -it just isn't. Some reason can prevail in this certainly. This allowance of the eruv seem to me not only the most benign of gestures but does in fact (as ess suggested earlier) help "make some people's lives easier" and at no harm to others, -something every decent person desires. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10048 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here is a link on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2043 Registered: 5-2004  |
Just found this thread, and am in complete agreement with MJ and Tom R. Since there is no public expense, and it is simply an accommodation, I don't see the harm in allowing this. Comparisons to a Cross, Menorah, Creche (sp?), and even having Christmas songs in school, are ridiculous. An eruv only means something to those who "require" it. To everyone else, it has no symbolic meaning. It's just a wire. Typically invisible. Sometimes it's yellow (or another color) so that it can be noticed if one is looking for it. Even orthodox Jews do not consider an eruv to be a religious symbol. It's just a wire. And no, it would not be possible to contract with individual land owners to have the wire strung through their property. As has been noted, it would have to cross streets and probably other public land. There are many accommodations that are made for religious groups by all communities. Tax exemption is the bar far the biggest, but the idea of not being able to park in front of a church, synagogue or mosque is one as well. Giving people the day off for religious holidays is similarly a public accommodation. This whole thing is a silly argument. With everything that is going on this is such a non-issue. So many posts about such a trivial matter. Scary... Imagine what we could all do with the collective time wasted on this. I won't get into the bigotry that started this thread. Yes, it is possible to discuss this without being labeled a bigot. But using terms such as "what kind of people..." and "those people..." are not the way to do so. | ||
| monster Supporter Username: Monster Post Number: 1755 Registered: 7-2002  |
How friggin' stupid is this, an eruv is nothing more than a way to ignore your own religious beliefs (if you happen to be an Orthodox Jew), if you have such a belief (religion) that curtails you certain freedoms, then come up with a way around those beliefs, you may as well consider yourself a hypocrite. The same goes for the Catholics and the whole meat on Friday thing, special compensation my assitude, it's just another example of people seeing how stupid religion can be, especially in saying you can't eat this or that, you can't have milk with meat, you can't walk out of your house, or carry your child, or do this or that, and tricking themselves into believing that if we do this one special thing it will make it alright to go against these rules, aaaaahhhhhhhh. Now I only picked on two religions, but others are just as bad, created by men to control others, what they can do, what they can say, who they can consort with, what they can eat, where they can go, blah-blah woof-woof! Now, I really don't care if they put up an eruv, more power to them in flouting their religions original beliefs, the same goes to all the Catholics who will be eating meat tomorrow (it just goes to show that someone in the past realized just how stupid it was), myself I think I will have some MEAD! | ||
| shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 1109 Registered: 7-2002 |
Also, don't forget alternate-side-of-the-street-parking is suspended on Jewish and Muslim holidays. A big accommodation that everyone else enjoys! | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 1788 Registered: 6-2002  |
monster, it's too bad you feel that way. I'm not going to get into defending my religious practices (I'm Catholic - I eat meat on Fridays, but not during Lent - not on Wednesdays during Lent either, but that's my choice), or to discuss how such acts are symbols of devotion rather than some expression of "logic." Rather than finding "loopholes," practices evolve over time to meet changing realities in the world. It's not about hypocrisy, it's about the evolution of how we express devotion. That does not lessen the value of current devotional practices. I don't understand the concept of the eruv, and doubt that I ever will. However, I do perceive that this is important to some current and potential members of our community, allows them to express their faith in ways that are appropriate to them. And it's not in anybody's face. As such it is baffling to me why anybody would consider it a problem. I, too, am shocked and saddened by this thread. I am stunned by some of the bigoted attitudes expressed here. I do understand the point that the township should not be voting on religious issues - but I disagree with this point. The township has an obligation to protect religious freedom. In this case, religious freedom requires the (extremely minimal) use of township facilities (but no expense). Therefore, a vote is required to allow this structure to be created. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8222 Registered: 4-1997 |
Certainly the aspect of not wanting a particular group of people as neighbors is abhorent and if that were the only issue going on, this topic wouldn't exist because I would have deleted it. The way Steel frames the issue is pretty good, IMO; asking "what harm" is important. I don't see any harm, but I do see questions that are interesting and worth discussing regarding the establishment clause and maybe at the end of the discussion those people fearing an "other" group will know more about them and fear them less. | ||
| aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 630 Registered: 8-2001 |
OK, let's close this thread. In conclusion, the Almighty One, Creator of the Universe and singular Supreme Being of the Vast Expanses, which includes trillions of gallaxies, each containing trillions of stars, trillions of which have multiple orbiting satellites...That Almighty One... He wrote this book and would rather persons not carry objects in certain areas every seventh day on a tiny planet in a remote section of a nondescript galaxy in an otherwise supercluster of mega-galaxies... Unless a highly respected and educated human declares a piece of fishing line or some such strung along utility poles, to be a contained area, then it's perfectly fine to carry one's children. This Supreme Deity also apparently wants us to eat no marrow (aw, Mom, no marrow??) every seventh day, lest the consumer of said marrow perform an act of extraordinary penitence. Of course, the Good Lord is measuring days cyclically rather than linearly. The Universal Time Continuum apparently is based on the speed of the rotation of said tiny planet around it's run-of-the-mill host star. By tiny, I mean relatively. I think agree it would suck to have to sweep up the whole thing, but universally speaking.... Also, this Supreme God wants us to break 5 times per day, prostrate ourselves facing a dusty desert city to worship him. (Boy, what an ego!) I mean, for a writer, he's very unclear. He's all over the place. I love you, but I'll kill you, if I have to. This Creator ironically created far more lyrical and lucid writers than he (okay, insert appropriate pronoun) is himself.  I think that about ends the discussion. Holiday well, all. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11520 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dave, I'd still like to know what you meant by praying in the public sphere. CLK, thanks for your comments towards monster. I would have said the same thing but not as well. There's no point in pointing out the logic or illogic of a religious observance. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11521 Registered: 1-2003 |
aquaman, thanks for the opportunity for me to rethink my concept of proxy offense. I think when a group is targeted, it can be appropriate for someone not in the group to be offended, because any prejudice against a group threatens us all, because it allows for future such prejudices. And to respond to your more recent post, lack of a religion works for you. Let's respect those who have other things that work for them. | ||
| aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 631 Registered: 8-2001 |
Tom, My religion calls for the public mocking of organized religion. 5 times per day facing Washington Rock. I must perform one face to face, one by phone, one by written document, one by my choice of the above, and one by sandwich board (this is the one that sucks). Please try to understand. I'm glad you rethought your issue about offense-taking. You now currently ascribe to the notion that if it's entirely possible that some one person could perhaps get offended, we all should definitely be. whhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 923 Registered: 2-2002 |
aquaman, I sense that you might enjoy this link to "biblical inconsistencies" (note the amusing domain name "infidel.org.") http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html -One of the standouts is the fact that Judas dies by two entirely different methods depending on which verse you are reading. What is one to believe? |
