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Archive through December 29, 2005Tom Reingoldtulip40 12-29-05  1:17 pm
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 10111
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Being in one of my rare optomistic moods I think African Americans have done a heck of a job developing their own culture here in United States and greatly influencing the country as a whole, with the exception of hip-hop that is. :-)

I remember Roots and I think Alex Haley's search isn't unique. I read an article earlier this week about the large numbers of African Americans who are visiting Ghana (one of the leading slave centers) in an attempt to get a feel for what their ancestors went through.

Obviously, in general AAs are subjected to our worst school systems and it is hard to rise out of that mess. A few do and should be complimented. However, whitebread middle class kids don't have to face that barrier and it is unfair to say that if Colin Powell could do it, everyone can.

Still, if African Americans are going to rise above their current position at the bottom of American society they are going to have to rise above the culture of victimization that I think many use as a crutch.

"Fire when ready, Gridley"
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Keywest
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Username: Keywest

Post Number: 138
Registered: 2-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Tom you have done it again. I just have a few thoughts to share.First Bklyn, every since you have started posting here on MOL your posts are purposely antagonistic and I for one wish you would go back to Bklyn and leave MOL alone. Tom brought the article to MOL to wage a discussion and that he has done. Every one is entitled to their own opinion but I honestly am sick of the attitude that many AA have that its THE MAN'S fault. Its time to move on...get an education, perserve your family,instill some values, break the ghetto/slave mentality cycle and finally TAKE RESPONSIBLITY for your own faults. It not rocket science!!
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Flimbro
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Username: Flimbro

Post Number: 20
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ffof-

I know you weren't "talking" to me so apologies to bklyntonj and I promise to butt out after this...
(There’s something in here for you too Bob K)

bklyntonj's earlier response was to a post on this board from what we all assume is a latino man. He thinks black folks complain too much and don't work hard like blacks from the Caribbean or other "hispanics". He suggests that we have an attitude problem and that our lot would change if we simply stopped calling racists racists and lightened up.

His perspective is the result of prejudices established in the late 16th and early 17th century when the "civilized" world shifted from class based servitude to race based chattel slavery. This shift required that Africans be considered heathens (non Christians) and therefore less than human. This papal decree triggered what became chattel slavery based on race. Since then Africans and descendants of Africans have been considered second class human beings. This mindset was formalized by slave codes in the Colonies and has been adjusted to reflect this country's economic/socio-political needs from the 1700's right up to the present day.

That is real life for the majority of African Americans that you come into contact with every day. That is the immensity of what the astute African American deals with every single day. How they choose to deal or not deal with it is a personal decision. Whether or not they choose to internalize the effects of racism is also a personal decision but regardless of this decision the racism exists and has to be dealt with on a daily basis.

People who have difficulty understanding or accepting this history often choose to dismiss it by acting as if it is a “black” problem or as it used to be referred to “The Negro Problem” or as pundits refer to it today- a culture of victimization. By making racism something that African Americans insist on dwelling on these people/institutions attempt to excuse themselves from the need to address it intelligently and honestly. Some of this is political expedience and some of it is cowardice but most of it is fear. They fail to see that it is the quintessential “American” problem. Why? Because we are Americans and we are here living amongst you for better or worse and it (racism) has divided us for over 400 years. Along with class based discrimination, racial prejudice will inevitably affect your lives on some level.

In most cases ignoring a cancer will kill you quicker.

bklyntonj may have a good life today but when she walks outside there are people who will judge her based on her appearance and perceived membership in a group continuously maligned as being backwards and irresponsible. She may not see herself as a “victim” as Bob K so eloquently and originally suggests but others certainly see her as one because of their own preconceptions.

How are you perceived when you walk out of your front door?
Are you seen as an ancestor of Scottish Highlanders who were persecuted and enslaved by Lowlanders/England in the 18th century or are you seen as a responsible tax paying resident of a comfortable middle class neighborhood?


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Brett Weir
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Username: Brett_weir

Post Number: 1140
Registered: 4-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My wife and I love to take the kids on day cruises when we're on vacation. Just day tours to whatever sights are near. Traveling by water has it's own set of concerns and you have to be very aware and vigilant. It's also difficult to get around especially if you are elderly or handicapped or a smaller child. We always try to assist those who might struggle when possible and are always gratified when others do likewise, especially for our little ones. It just makes the cruise that much more enjoyable for all...

...but if anything serious ever happened- if the boat hit something or a storm came up suddenly or a bolt of lightning struck- there's no question who we're looking after, first, last and always. Even if I don't make it out alive I'll be sure my kids will. And God help anyone who stands between me and their safety. And I will mourn the loss of any soul in time, but mine will survive at all costs.

It's like that in life. I never really embraced this whole "it takes a village" mentality for this very reason. It maintains a false idea that all children are of equal concern to society, when in fact each child's well-being is only as assured as the first line of care he/she receives. You can provide as many levels of care beyond that as you wish; if there is little or no primary care, that child is doomed.

Parental neglect is not the sole province of the African-American community. Any parent who abdicates his/her responsibilities is the main perpetrator of that child's fate, and any society that shields or condones or passively affirms that neglect is a party to it.

In the best of times, we all want to share in the success of all children- their education, their health, their safety. But every day disasters stare down at children everywhere, and the only question that matters is "who was looking out for that child?". Rich kids are often as neglected as poor ones, because some people just don't comprehend the committment they have made by bringing a child into this world.

"The only thing necessary for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing".
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bklyntonj
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Username: Bklyntonj

Post Number: 564
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keywest, you started posting in 2-2004 and I started in 7-2003 and you're telling me, "every since you have started posting here"? What, you just browsed MOL for 7 months?

You're missing the point, your thinking and people who think like you are the problem, not the solution.

Let me ask, when did "THE MAN" ever admit to his part and try to rectify it?

Also, do your black friends know how you feel? Do you have any?

All my friends know how I feel and respect my honesty.

I'll end by saying this, why should I leave, I was here first!
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bklyntonj
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Username: Bklyntonj

Post Number: 565
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh yeah and thanks for your support Flimbro but I happen to be a black male. I guess my feminine side was showing.
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Keywest
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Username: Keywest

Post Number: 139
Registered: 2-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Blkyn, you were not here first..I am was here first just posting under a different name. And by the way I am Black and happy to admit it and yes I do have quite a few black friends as well as family who feel the same way I do. Careful now..you wouldn't want to let it out of the bag the Black community is just a polarized about this issue as the world is. I am not saying you are not stating the way you are honestly feel and I am just asking you to take another look at it..And granted only one member's (My great grandmother who was 1/2 black 1/2 indian)family came off the slave ships but we are from the South we know what segregation is and discrimination is and my family has still perserved and the expectation that all of our family will. If anyone in my family ever said "I can't get ahead because the white man is holding me down" they would be laughed and told we better find another way then. All I am saying is that we as Black people in the United States are well aware of our history but that history is no excuse not to do well today.
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SOSully
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Username: Sullymw

Post Number: 1058
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to agree with Keywest on this one. I think we are mixing up a few things. No one is disputing the horrors of slavery, but that may not be an excuse for not excelling today. There are black people at every level of society, so there is a path to get there. Some people choose not to take that path. I do admit that this is not an easy thing to do for those whose culture has been negatively impacted by their history, but I believe that any person in this country has an opportunity to flourish if they get a good education and work hard. It may be harder for some than others, but it's sure worth the trouble. And it can carry forward for generations and contribute to a change in culture.
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Flimbro
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Username: Flimbro

Post Number: 21
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah I thought as much after I hit the "post message" button. My apologies for the assumption.
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Flimbro
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Username: Flimbro

Post Number: 22
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SOSully-

What kind of people make the choice not to take the path to success? And when they do- exactly how is that done? Do they just say “Aaaah, the hell with it”, and stay home and play video games” ?

I don't remember anybody here saying that racism was an "excuse" for anything. I certainly didn't. Who did?

Is it possible to have a discussion about racism without it being seen as an excuse for anything? Is it possible for one to see that a historical event is the cause of a condition and not an "excuse" for anything?

Is it possible that the attempted genocide of what we call Native Americans has had a negative impact on them as a group? There are some successful Native Americans but does acknowledging the success of some mean that as a group they haven't been negatively impacted?

Are women negatively impacted by their second class citizenship? Are women that bring this up guilty of making excuses for the fact that they make less money then men? Is the fact that women are still considered to be second class citizens the reason why they are paid less money for comparable work or is that just coincidence? And will staying quiet about that fact and working longer hours eradicate the problem?

Does discussing the reality of racism automatically mean that the person initiating the discussion is incapable of being educated or taking responsibility for personal shortcomings as Keywest suggests?

Maybe we’re just incapable of having the discussion without accepting responsibility across the board.

I agree with Keywest, being of African descent in America is no excuse to accept any thing less than success. My folks let me know that only the best + another 100% was going to be acceptable from me and my children will hear the same thing.

They also explained that the reason we were marching around the board of Education all the time was because the folks throwing stuff at us from across the street didn’t think that I should be given the opportunity to deliver on that first 100 percent.

Now, if there are no more people who think that my kids (or any kids that look like mine) shouldn't have the opportunity to give that 100%- I’ll shut up about racism. But, if there’s one person who assumes that my child gets short shrift because her skin is brown, we have a problem and I’ll be yelling about it.

What do you think? Is it safe?
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Lydia
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Username: Lydial

Post Number: 1542
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to hijack things, but I think Tulip's question:


Quote:

May I ask if Native Americans, who were encouraged as children to forget their language and culture in schools run by the BIA, are included in this category?




Tulip, I've never met an Indian who called him or herself a "Native American". True, the Indians I've talked to don't represent all Indians, but most Indians do identify themselves by Tribe and/or Pueblo.

It's another example IMO of lazy PC-ness without any research.

It's not enough to re-label genocide with a hyphenated euphamism.

Indians are not "Native Americans" They are the people who lived here first. Several generations ago the descendants of many of us took their land, enslaved, raped, and pillaged them.

Several generations before that, the people who committed the atrocities in the New Land were victimized similarly in Europe.

At some point, we have to stop inflicting suffering and put aside the past without losing sight of the lessons and lesions that generations of children carry today.




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tulip
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Username: Braveheart

Post Number: 2914
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydia,
"Lazy PC-ness?" I don't get how sensitivity is "lazy PC-ness." What ethnicity are you? Would you like to be insulted about it?
I don't know where you are coming from, Lydia, so let's just call a truce. I don't feel like arguing with you about semantics. If we follow you to the logical extension of your argument, we should just call all people insulting names relevant to their ethnicity. That might work in Howard Beach or Skokie, but not in most places.
Thanks,
tulip

PS: I was attempting, in my post, to make reference to the loss of culture that Indians, Native Americans, or whatever word you would like, share with African Americans, Blacks or whatever word you would like...
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Tom Reingold
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Username: Noglider

Post Number: 11622
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brett Weir, I think the "it takes a village" mentality doesn't propose that all children are the concern of all adults to equal degrees. I think it is what you are saying. Every child should be a concern to all adults but to varying degrees. There should be concentric circles of concern, starting at your family and ending at the whole earth. The circles in between can be your extended family and the various groups you consider to be your community.

In a previous commentary, Bob Herbert pointed out that while it may be true that any individual can rise above his circumstances, stating the odds is still meaningful. Anyone can win at roulette, but not everyone can. Those are the odds. And we should be working on improving the odds. And we can.
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bklyntonj
Citizen
Username: Bklyntonj

Post Number: 566
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And that's exactly what I'm saying Tom.

Keywest, pardon my assumption. You must realize just because people in your family taught you to strive doesn't make the struggle easier. Oh yeah, I think you mean preserve, not perserve.

Look at how blacks are portryed in the media, how we're looked at when we walk into an expensive store, even how we're looked at when do have material things.

NO AA should agree with "just making excuses" for AA failure to achieve success in America. You just enable stereotypes to prevail and validate discrimination by others.

Now if you and I or any other AAs get into an argument others will say, "see, THEY can't even come together". Then the oxymoron continues...
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Brett Weir
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Username: Brett_weir

Post Number: 1141
Registered: 4-2004


Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom- it's the tightest ring that counts. "The Village" can do nothing but point fingers and express varying degrees of righteous indignation when a child is lost to hunger, drugs, poverty or crime. Yet "The Village" never seems to aim its considerable weight and ire upon the parents who walked out when the kid was in filthy diapers and only reappeared when the cameras showed up.

There are many reasons why parents turn away from parenting; there is no excuse. And no one should lose sight of where the blame belongs.
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crabby
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Username: Crabbyappleton

Post Number: 405
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 8:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Keywest, pardon my assumption. You must realize just because people in your family taught you to strive doesn't make the struggle easier." Seems to me every little bit helps.

" Oh yeah, I think you mean preserve, not perserve. Look at how blacks are portryed in the media.."

I think you mean portray, not portry

I think every one is mixing up race with class, frankly. Maplewood is a pretty decent town, everyone has a nice house, mowed lawns, good schools. Yeah, there's a scale of a little less to a little more, but that scale is everywhere. In the grand scheme, we all have a lot, and we should stop focusing on what we think every one else thinks when we walk out the door and just help others who need it and demand respect from our children. What's the bottom line? Every one needs a little respect and room to grow. Then, eventually the bigotry will die out.
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bklyntonj
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Username: Bklyntonj

Post Number: 567
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good one crabby. Ya got me.
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LW
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Username: Lrw

Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BKLYNTONJ & FLIMBRO--You two are like a God-send to MOL. I am so proud when I read your posts. Although we know that there is no single "Black voice", I think that some non-Blacks do honestly believe that we all think, and act alike; that we each serve as a representative of our race. Which is why I am so glad to have you two here, engaging in intellectual conversation, fact-based debate, sharing your knowledge and experiences. I'm not too surprised to see how some have opted not to respond, after seeing what their up against; which are posters who speak the truth, and convey their thoughts in an articulate and intelligent manner, sans the hackneyed insults and stereotypes.

KEYWEST--I respectfully disagree with you however, which is, of course, ok, because the experiences of Black people vary so greatly, that I would never begin to dismiss your feelings.
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mem
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Username: Mem

Post Number: 5635
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Warning: Thread drift:

"The bottom line is that we’re all in trouble. Incredible violence in all forms permeates every segment of our society. It’s the lifleblood of the television industry, video games and mainstream feature films. Health care is non existent for too many Americans, we’re in enormous debt to numerous foreign powers, our food is diseased, AIDS runs rampant and our society is approaching a level of stupefying class stratification."

Do I hear "Drame Queen" here or are we describing some 3rd world country by accident? Since when is "our food diseased"? And AIDS runs rampant here? Have you checked Africa, some 50% of some populations have AIDS...we have the most advanced treatment for it here in the US. I could go on and on, but if I felt like this about my country, I would move out of it very quickly. How horribly negative.
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bklyntonj
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Username: Bklyntonj

Post Number: 568
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, thank you LW.

It amazes me how many non-AAs here have no idea how prejudice they are and how they think most AAs are whiners who make excuses to avoid hard work.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking anyone who thinks that way. I will admit, the majority of non-blacks I speak to about it tell me their feelings are based on what they see and/or hear. After further discussion, we both admit it stems from bad media or bad press. Negative images are definitely used to "portray" us more so than positive. Similiar thinking to a self-fulfilling prophecy that leads to AA's demise.
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crabby
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Username: Crabbyappleton

Post Number: 408
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Negative images are used more- hmmmm, can we say rap?

And why would any AA put down Keywest? Talk about self-fulfilling prophecy.
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bklyntonj
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Username: Bklyntonj

Post Number: 570
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

C'mon crabby. Do you know how many positive rappers there are out here? Then again, probably not, their records don't sell (hmmmm, wonder why).

And what makes Keywest more important than any other AA? How is disagreeing with them putting them down?
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Flimbro
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Username: Flimbro

Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry to be "horribly negative" mem. Just reporting what I'm seeing out here in the world. I'll be brief since we're drifting.

A bad food conversation is probably too radical to have here so I'll say this. Our food is bad and has been for awhile. Our diets are bad as well. The two go hand in hand. Talk to a nutritionist after you read some labels on your groceries, look at some figures on childhood obesity. Look at the rise in diabetes and other maladies related to diet and the ingestion of our food.

Re AIDS. I live in South Orange not Africa. AIDS is killing far too many people here in the US- black, brown and white people. What's going on in Africa is a tragedy- I've been there and I live here. Do we wait and see how we fare here in the US or do we talk about it and try to take action now? You can use the figures quoted in Bob Herbert's article at the head of this thread or you can do the research yourself. AIDS is claiming/threatening the lives of an alarming number (over 38% of new cases per available stats) of heterosexual, non drug using African American females in this area and in the US in general. This means rampant to me. Now you can always stick your head in the sand and tell yourself that African American heterosexual women means you're free and clear- maybe, maybe not. I'd get into AIDS research and the cost of antiretroviral medicine versus the availabilty of insurance coverage but that would really bum you out. AIDS has always been an epidemic and continues to be one.

Just because it isn't on the front page doesn't mean problem solved.

I can't tell you how to feel about your country but I can suggest that you look beneath the surface and stop acting as if what effects others has no effect on you. Just because we consider ourselves to be "first" world as opposed to third doesn't mean that we live crisis free. If you think we do, google some pictures of the nice middle class folks in St. Bernards Parish, New Orleans sitting on their rooftops four days after a storm.

Back to that drama queen thing- of which I'm neither. How's this for positive-
Puppies are cute
Flowers smell good
Nice people are great
Beer is tasty
The Knicks will get better
Today is a sunny day

Feel better?
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Flimbro
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Username: Flimbro

Post Number: 24
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crabby-
I was going to disagree with you but I was afraid that you might be a man and if you were, than following your line of logic (re disagreeing w/Keywest), disagreeing with you would be detrimental to all men or even mankind... So, taking your advice, I've decided to respect you and give you room to grow then hopefully the bigotry will die out.


Confused? That makes two of us.
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 10126
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't see how anybody can see the AA community as monolithic unless you think Justice Thomas, Secretary Powell, Congressman Rangel and Reverend Sharpton are all the same.

Bklyn, glad you confirmed you are a guy. While I don't have gaydar or Jewdar, I usually get the sex of posters here correct. I also don't even have blackdar. For instance is Jason Kidd AA or not? :-)
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mem
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Username: Mem

Post Number: 5637
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flim,

"Our food is bad and has been for awhile. Our diets are bad as well. The two go hand in hand. Talk to a nutritionist after you read some labels on your groceries, look at some figures on childhood obesity. Look at the rise in diabetes and other maladies related to diet and the ingestion of our food. "

Um, it's real simple, YOU change your diet then, and pay attention to what you buy and eat. No one is forcing you or the obese children to eat crap. You'd be surprised by the array of good food available in the US. The less people buy crappy food, the faster it'll go away. Don't blame the US.

"AIDS is killing far too many people here in the US- black, brown and white people. What's going on in Africa is a tragedy- I've been there and I live here. Do we wait and see how we fare here in the US or do we talk about it and try to take action now?"

So, do you want the US to force people NOT to have unprotected sex? That's not very democratic, is it? People really should be responsible for their own sex lives, please...

The government is NOT reponsible for the irresponsible way people live their lives. Why blame the US for these particular issues?

Load of crap.
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crabby
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Username: Crabbyappleton

Post Number: 409
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

flim, lw, btonj...go ahead, talk amongst yourselves.
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Tom Reingold
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Username: Noglider

Post Number: 11631
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mem wrote:

The government is NOT reponsible for the irresponsible way people live their lives. Why blame the US for these particular issues?

This thread is not about the government. And before we start assigning blame, we have to acknowledge problems that do exist. This country is great, and it also has problems. Neither statement negates the other. Let's be glad for what we have, and let's work on stuff that we ought to improve.
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mem
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Username: Mem

Post Number: 5638
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Warning: Thread drift...

Imagine this:

The US closes all fast food chains and bans eating greasy fried food that's bad for you, including McDonald's, Duncan Donuts and Kentucky Fried Chicken. And Popeye's Chicken (my personal favorite and the bane of my existence).

The outcry over that would be tremendous. Oh and I suppose somehow racism would end up having something to do with it!

Sheesh.
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mem
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Username: Mem

Post Number: 5639
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom says,
"This thread is not about the government."

OK, so are you dictating to us what this thread is supposed to be about? Maybe you should be clearer with your rules if you're the boss of it then, because that's a big part of the discussion with all the references about "America" and the "US". Get it?
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Flimbro
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Username: Flimbro

Post Number: 25
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mem-
I'm at a loss. I don't really know what point you're trying to make or refute. My original post was attempting to make the point that we have serious issues to confront in this country and that Mr. Herbert's piece was nothing but a diversion. An all too typical attempt to cast African Americans as the architects of their own demise. That demise being one that consisted of problems (violence, misogyny, illiteracy etc) that affect or befall every single one of us black or white and are not exclusive to African Americans.

In mentioning violence on TV, food, AIDS etc., I was trying to suggest that we have a host of problems to be concerned about and that none of us have the luxury of succumbing to the diversion that I thought the article presented.


I do not think that french fries have anything to do with racism nor do I think "the government" should tell people not to have sex.

Hopefully this clears up the misunderstanding.




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Tom Reingold
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Username: Noglider

Post Number: 11632
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, I don't make the rules. That was an observation. When you said "the government is not responsible" it sounded to me that you were responding to someone who was saying the government should do one thing or another. And as far as I can see, no one was making such a claim. So if you want to clarify your reference to government, I'd welcome it. As far as I can tell, I think the topic is who is responsible for the state of black culture and achievement in the US. And the debates seem to focus on individuals and groups, trying to examine all of them, from one group to another. We're also struggling to define the groups. Unless I missed something, I haven't seen anyone else say government is to blame or praise for the current of affairs not have we charged government to change things. We could, and maybe we should, and maybe we shouldn't, but have we?
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mem
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Username: Mem

Post Number: 5640
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom,

akdshhf jfjirfuhf jsldkfmdcjy agt eurtgjzu jdll jsdlj. Right?

Cheers!
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mem
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Username: Mem

Post Number: 5641
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flim,

I know this country has major problems. And the problem of global racism confounds me. I was reacting to your intense criticism and blame towards US society (or government - sorry Tom - or whoever you are pointing the finger at) for certain things, like the way we eat. One of the great things about this country is we have the luxury and freedom to criticize it, and we need squeaky wheels like you to continue to change and make improvements. So I apologize for my defensiveness, but it seemed a bit extreme to me. I do enjoy your posts.

Happy New Year.
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Flimbro
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Username: Flimbro

Post Number: 26
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mem
No need for an apology.

Racism confounds all of us. I know that. It isn't easy to talk about and a solution is not evident. Our brand of racism is unique and resides in the this country’s bones- so extricating it is no simple feat. Talking about racism scares people. What is evident is that it won't go away (if that’s even possible) by acting as if it doesn't exist. And it certainly won't go away by acting as if the folks who bear the brunt of its effects are to blame for it's existence.

I don't blame the government for the actions of individuals. But I do blame the government and institutions for the ongoing creation and dissemination of propaganda used to sustain racism. “Isms” need sprawling organizations to keep them afloat and foot soldiers to do that work on a day by day basis. I think the article at the head of this thread is an example of that. I think that we (you and I) are those institutions, what you refer to as “US society”, so in that sense we are to blame. That means you and me and anybody else that remains silent and allows racist ideas to flourish when deep inside we know better are part of the problem and not the solution. What we all need to do is use common sense and reject it when we see it or hear it and make that rejection public so others take notice.

With regard to this thread, I don’t believe that African American behavior creates poverty as Bob Herbert suggests. I’ve spent time in poor white and poor latino neighborhoods and they have plenty of violence and ignorance with no black people in sight. I’ve also passed the time with affluent white men whose entire way of life seems to revolve around the exclusion of women and a general misogynistic attitude. I have white lower and middle class friends with children who’ll be attending college in the next couple of years and they have no idea how they’ll pay for it since educational loans are much harder for them to find and qualify for. As a result those kids may sit out for a year, join the military or just start looking for a job. Would anyone say that those children are inviting a bullet in the head because they are “turning their backs on school to wallow in self imposed ignorance”. I doubt it, but that’s exactly what Herbert suggests in his article when it comes to college aged African American kids. I reject this- all of it. This life is much too complex to paint an entire group of people with one brush.

I’m not nearly enough of a squeaky wheel. These are just words on a screen. But if my stating things plainly (or extremely as you say) got a rise out of you and made you consider something you hadn’t before than they’re well worth the time.


Peace and blessings to you in the New Year


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