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pseudonymous
Citizen
Username: Berry_festival
Post Number: 222
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 11:49 am: |     |
Yesterday I was in Ricalton Square with Little P. We admired the Menorah, the Christmas Tree, the Dickens Village.
I began to tell Little P about the nativity scene that may be added next year. We discussed the creche, the meaning of the birth of Jesus and, god bless children, Little P said, "but there's already a Christmas tree for Christians. Why do we need the nativity scene?"
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10136
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 11:54 am: | |
P, is it your place to choose the symbol acceptable to another religion? Just curious. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2460
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:45 pm: | |
Put the Menorah in the Creche.
As pointed out by Uk, the folks in the scene are Jewish, so it makes sense they would have a Menorah.
As I understand some Christians, perhaps the Eastern Orthodox, celebrate Christmas on the day the Wise Men arrived. Some call it "Little Christmas". Since it comes a few days after the birth of Jesus, I've always figured that they were there for the bris.
Let's get more ecumenical. Among the gifts the Wise Men bring for the baby, why not a Dreidel? And we can have Joseph and Mary entertaining the guests by serving them Latkes. Add a Crescent Moon above for the Muslims. I don't know what countries the "Three Kings" came from, but can't we make one a Bhuddist and another a Hindu?
See, one display satsifies all!  |
sac
Supporter
Username: Sac
Post Number: 2986
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 1:01 pm: | |
Actually it took the wise men many months to get there ... so I don't think they made it to the bris. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10137
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 1:17 pm: | |
The showed up on January 6. The day is called Epiphany. Do they do the bris that soon?
I really like having the "Three Kings" as Hindus and Budhists btw. "We three Kings of the Orient are, bearing gifts from near and far." Kinda hard to work in Islam here, since Mohammed didn't come along for several hundred years.
I always thought that the Eastern Rite churches never accepted the Gregorian calander, which is the reason for their celebration of Christmas on another day. |
Alberto
Citizen
Username: Buckwheat
Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 1:36 pm: | |
Anon, your comments are really fudged. Perhaps, in keeping with your thinking, we can also hang little crucifixes from the Menorah lights in keeping with spirit of the season- how far do you want to take this?
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CM Townsend
Citizen
Username: Cm_townsend
Post Number: 106
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 1:52 pm: | |
http://www.catholicleague.org/linked%20docs/Christmas_guidelines.htm |
pseudonymous
Citizen
Username: Berry_festival
Post Number: 223
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:15 pm: | |
P
I would never presume to say it is my place to select the symbol that is acceptable to any religion.
I am sorry if that is what you read into my post. I did not say that and did not mean that. |
sac
Supporter
Username: Sac
Post Number: 2989
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:08 pm: | |
Epiphany (January 6) is the commemoration of the arrival of the magi, just as December 25th is the date chosen to celebrate the birth of Jesus. (In the case of Christmas, I believe that it was a papal decree in the 3rd or 4th century AD and the date was selected because it was the date of a pagan holiday celebration that they were trying to surpress.) Neither date has any particular historical accuracy. Studying the bible as well as understanding the geography of the region reveals that the travels of the wise men took many months and Jesus was probably well over a year old by the time they got there. I don't think that this is disputed by any informed Christian scholars or clergy.
I'm not an expert on the bris ceremony (having attended only one), but I believe that it is done on the 7th or 8th (?) day of a baby boy's life, so even if the December 25th and January 6th dates were historically accurate, the bris wouldn't have coincided with the visit of the wise men, since those two dates are 12 days apart (as in "The Twelve Days of Christmas") |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2465
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:14 pm: | |
Alberto: I was trying to be funny. But think about it, since Jesus was a Jew, if at the time of his birth Jews lit Menorahs, then his family would have had one. After all the Last Supper was a Passover Seder.
BobK: The Bris is 8 days after the birth. Glad you liked my idea about the "Three Kings" |
Alberto
Citizen
Username: Buckwheat
Post Number: 49
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 6:38 pm: | |
ok anon- though perhaps not in the creche
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TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 890
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 1:46 pm: | |
Wasn't the bris on January 1?
TomR |
mamatamu
Citizen
Username: Mamatamu
Post Number: 105
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 3:53 pm: | |
Dr. Boogie, what's the difference between a Christian and a Catholic?
Aren't Catholics Christian?
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Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 944
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 4:19 pm: | |
I think that all Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholics.
I have a Venn diagram I can send you  |
Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1550
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 4:36 pm: | |
Mama,
Catholics are Christians, but Christians aren't necessarily Catholic.
Similar to a pigeon is a dove, but doves aren't necessarily pigeons. Except that doves and pigeons are born that way, and people can choose their religion. Bad example.
I think there are at least 1,000 sects that fall into the "Christian" catagory.
Baptists, Lutherans, Adventists, Pentacostal, Calvinists, Presbyterians - all are Christian religions. Not sure about Mormons. Pretty sure Quakers are Christian, but I'd have to look it up.
The Christian faith has never been unified to my knowledge.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10140
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 5:27 pm: | |
Quakers are Christians. They are one of the three "peace churches" along with the Mennonites and the Brethren. Mormons consider themselves Christians, but some other Christians disagree. Most of us protestant Christians don't like to have our denominations referred to a "sects".
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Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1551
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 5:47 pm: | |
Bobk,
Quote:Most of us protestant Christians don't like to have our denominations referred to a "sects"
"Sects" sounds so...religious, I know.
BobK - my grandfather was Jewish, my stepmother is Jewish, therefore my half-brother is Jewish. My father is Methodist, my mother is Episcopalian, I was baptised Episcopalian, we celebrated (half-heartedly) Christmas and Passover in my house growing up.
I've fasted, feasted, shaken hands ("He has risen, He has risen indeed") I've had a wonderful a la carte religious education.
"Sect" is not an insult, it's description.
I'm an agnostic today - go figure.
Agnostic or not, I still love all the holiday celebrations.
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mamatamu
Citizen
Username: Mamatamu
Post Number: 106
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 6:05 pm: | |
Case and Lydia,
Thanks but...
I knew the answer to that question. I was surprised to read this by Dr. Boogie
"Bobk,
after 12 years of Catholic school, I know well the difference between Christian and Catholic."
I was wondering what he meant by that comment.
It sounded like a comment I'd hear from my ninth graders.
In fact, the ignorance of religion really irritates me.
Here are some common things I have heard from kids and adults:
Catholics are not Christians
Nobody knows when Jesus was born, it was something like 500 BC...
Jesus was a Christian
Jesus spoke English, Latin or Roman
Jesus wrote the Bible
The Disciples wrote the Bible
Jesus last name is Christ
Martin Luther (not King) freed the slaves.
Jesus was a minister by profession
Jesus was born on December 25th
Moses, a Christian came up with Ten Commandments
The Hebrews originally came from Israel
There is only one God, but Muslims have a different God than Christians
Needless to say, even when attempting to share some of the most basic information, recipients experience uncomfortability and cognitive dissonance.
Many people profess to be Christians but do not seem to know the basics about Christianity or any other religion for that matter.
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Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1552
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 6:43 pm: | |
Mama -
A few months ago Dave posted some statistics on religious beliefs - basically most people who identify themselves with an organized religion don't actually understand or follow the rules of their faith.
The latest Pope recently laid down the law - if you're Catholic you may not pick and choose - no pre-marital sex, no birth control and no gays - no exceptions.
People take religion very seriously, but I know few people that follow it to the letter.
It's not really a criticism, more of a question.
Many people eschew organized religion but consider themselves "spiritual" - I absolutely don't have the answers, but I do think that if you can't follow the rules of your denomination, then you should move on. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2930
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 7:01 pm: | |
So Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, who were deists, and did not subscribe to organized religion, but were spiritual nonetheless, were wrong? |
Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 7:51 pm: | |
Tulip,
What's your point?
Jefferson and Franklin were "Wrong" how?
Jefferson was a slave-owner who had sex with at least one of his slaves - certainly out of wedlock, possibly without Sally Hemmings' consent.
I can't think of any "spiritual" explanations for Jefferons' behavior, I think he was taking advantage of an (unfair) situation.
Franklin was pretty cool tho - I'll give you that.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2933
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 8:01 pm: | |
Lydia, you said, "Many people eschew organized religion but consider themselves "spiritual" - I absolutely don't have the answers, but I do think that if you can't follow the rules of your denomination, then you should move on."
I am saying, deists in the Age of Reason, such as Jefferson and Franklin (non-slave-owner, as far as we know) believed they could be believers without being members of organized religion. They believed their relationship with their God was personal, and did not need the teachings and practices of an organized church to support their beliefs. What's the matter, pray tell, with that?
And what does slave-owning have to do with all that?
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Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1554
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 8:52 pm: | |
Tulip,
Quote:And what does slave-owning have to do with all that?
O Kaaay...Most spiritualist's definition of spirituality clashes with "owning" people.
i.e. - I don't care if you're Jeffersonion, it's still not cool to rape the help.
Tulip,
This may get me banned, but I think you're a complete idiot.
You have knee-jerk reactions but you don't do any due-diligence.
You're brimming with fury but you have no suggestions to improve the world.
You shout and shout and shout but you've never dipped your foot in the deep end.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2934
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 8:55 pm: | |
I'm sure it won't get you banned.
By the way, what's the deep end?
And... OKaaaaay, in your terms, if Jefferson had joined organized religion, he wouldn't have been a slaveowner or a rapist?
And...you sound like an indulged bourgeoise to me. Which will probably get me banned.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2935
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 9:11 pm: | |
And..does everyone who disagrees with you, or dislikes your views, warrant the descriptor of "idiot?"
And about "raping the help" as you so smugly say, does that mean you dismiss all of Jefferson's ideas and intellectual contributions toward democracy? If so, no wonder you think I have presented no ideas. You wouldn't recognize an idea if it bumped you in the noggin.
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mamatamu
Citizen
Username: Mamatamu
Post Number: 107
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 10:59 pm: | |
Women, call a truce on that one!
Lydia: Tulip often offers suggestions to improve the world.
Tulip: From what I read, Lydia was not putting down spirituality...just Jefferson.
The points you two made seem to have some how got all muddled up in..something.
That's too bad, you'd make better allies than opponents.
Lydia, if 80% of the people in the US consider themselves Christian, and most of them don't understand the tenants of their faith then...OMG what a problem we have!
Maybe the best investment would be a secular religious education exhibit rather than a Nativity in Maplewood. |
mamatamu
Citizen
Username: Mamatamu
Post Number: 108
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 11:03 pm: | |
Hey, and come to think of it, perhaps there should be a Kwanzaa exhibit too. This way, we could educate those people who think it is some African version of X-mas. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10142
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 6:41 am: | |
Mamatamu, why not? I suspect that next year Ricalton Square will be kinda croweded, so I suggest you petition the TC ASAP.
The Abolitionist movement was basically a fath based inititiative. It started in the churches of the time.
And for the record the quote you attribute to me was actually written by Dr. O"Boggie.
One of the "justifications" for slavery was it brought the word of god to the heathens. Sick, right? And a wonderful case of self justification. |
Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1555
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 2:23 pm: | |
OK - My resolution for 2006 is to try to understand Tulip and respect her views without getting all snarky on my part.
Sorry Tulip, sometimes I'm a jerk.
Mamatutu -
Quote:Lydia, if 80% of the people in the US consider themselves Christian, and most of them don't understand the tenants of their faith then...OMG what a problem we have!
Margaret Cho has a great quote - more of less this is it:
"Strange, there's so much religion in the world, but only enough to make us fight over who's right, not enough to make us love each other"
BTW, I'm not against spirituality, faith or religion.
I am against people using religion as an excuse for behavior that causes suffering, be it racism, bigotry, thievery, human/animal/environmental abuse, etc.
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 1804
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 2:35 pm: | |
mamatamu:
maybe this will clarify - I also know the difference between a square and a rectangle.
if you want to know why I posted what I did, bobk seemed to be put out that I was using the terms Catholic and Christian interchangeably on this thread. the reason I was using both was that my assumption is that a Catholic Church is sponsoring a nativity scene next year, ostensibly on behalf of all Christians.
not a whole lot to read into, really. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2941
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 2:53 pm: | |
Lydia,
Thanks for the apology.
Also, I like the Margaret Cho quote, and agree with it. I think you and I are really on the same page, it just sometimes has different fonts 
I am flattered that you would make a New Year's resolution relating to me, but I hope you will not let me distract you from the stating the substance of your views.
I criticize as easily as I breathe, which isn't great.
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Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4915
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 2:55 pm: | |
Doctor - After reading through this thread, I don't know if any church is the sponsor of this display. Mr. Fernandez refers to himself and others, who are planning this. Maybe Mr. Fernandez can clarify, though, if there's some confusion. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 1805
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 3:28 pm: | |
I may be misunderstood about the sponsor of the display, and if so, I stand corrected.
but I do understand that the words "Catholic" and "Christian" are not synonyms that can be used interchageably, just as the words "French" and "European" don't mean the same thing.
mamatamu, I don't understand why my simple statement of fact concerning the definition of two words is a statement of ignorance. if anything, to deny that reality would be ignorance. |
Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1556
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 4:34 pm: | |
Tulip,
Quote: I think you and I are really on the same page, it just sometimes has different fonts
Me too - re: same page.
Thanks for understanding.
If there's another f2f anytime soon, I hope we can meet in person. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2469
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:38 pm: | |
Wow, Lydia and Tulip:
Let there be Peace on Earth and let it begin with me.
Amen |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2945
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:45 pm: | |
Oh, thanks Lydia. I know I've been remiss in not attending f2f. I admit I have a terribly busy schedule. (Two college tuitions to pay.) I do hope the planets align properly some day and I can come to Maplewood, which is easily sixty miles from my home.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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extuscan
Citizen
Username: Extuscan
Post Number: 573
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 10:55 pm: | |
"Hey, and come to think of it, perhaps there should be a Kwanzaa exhibit too. This way, we could educate those people who think it is some African version of X-mas."
No no, we all know its just about communism.
-John |
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