| Author | Message | ||
     Fight the power Citizen Username: Tookiew Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2005 |
While perusing the Maplewood N-R last night, I read that the eruv supporters hope it will induce many orthodox to move here and help revitalize SPringfield avenue through the creation of businesses catering to the Orthodox community (i.e. businesses that are closed to other residents on Saturdays). Talk about racism! What about the already existing residents around Springfield? Why doesn't Profeta talk about attracting businesses that cater to African-American tastes? No, what they want are places that will induce whites to move here, displace the existing residents, and help whiten the town and therefore "improve" it that way. Why isn't this seen as the racism that it is? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3893 Registered: 12-2001  |
There is nothing stopping the African-American community from promoting businesses on Springfield Ave. that cater to African-American tastes. I would be very pleased to have kosher markets, Halal markets and Caribbean markets on Springfield Ave. I have focused on food, because aside from restaurants, I don't have much reason to go to Springfield Ave. unless I need paint. The eruv seems like a non-issue to me. It is one of these things that I would never, ever notice unless somebody took the trouble to point it out to me. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2431 Registered: 6-2002 |
Last time I was in synagogue I sat next to an African-American woman. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 643 Registered: 3-2005 |
Are Orthodox Jews a race? | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2097 Registered: 7-2003 |
I just had this conversation with one of the guys who work for me. He said his girlfriend is ˝ Jewish. I asked “How does that work? Is there or is there not a Jesus, I don’t think there can be a grey area.” She could be 1/2 German, or 1/2 Polish, but she's all Jewish or not. | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2352 Registered: 5-2001 |
"businesses that are closed to other residents on Saturdays" You're kidding here, right? The business would be closed to ALL customers on Saturdays just as many small businesses are currently closed to ALL customers on Sundays. Fightthepower/Tookiew, you are so wrong on so many levels with this! And your own bigotry is so evident from your posts. Nobody is going to displace the existing residents although any of those existing residents, white or AA or other, who choose to sell may find that their property values have finally begun to RISE and they may make the kind of profits that other parts of town have been enjoying for the past decade or so. This is a bad thing??? I don't think so. In fact, it might enable some of them to move to other parts of our fair town. Right now, for what I could get for my house, I couldn't afford to live anywhere else in town. | ||
| Silvio Dante Citizen Username: Silviodante Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2003 |
Tooks, You want businesses catering to African-American tastes - you can find plenty right down the road in Irvington. You want that type of environment? Move there, but don't try to bring Maplewood down with you. | ||
| Guy Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1352 Registered: 8-2004  |
Sounds like affirmative action for Orthodox Jews, which are actully more of a a minority compared to the number of African Americans in the U.S. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 645 Registered: 3-2005 |
Guy are we giving jobs to Jews when there are better qualified non Jews? An othodox jewish fire department sounds like a Mel Brooks movie! | ||
| Guy Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1353 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hopefully there are no fires on Saturday. | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 303 Registered: 8-2004 |
Jewish moral theology is humane and highly thought out, and I cannot imagine it neglects such an obvious question or ruled that God prefers ritual observance to charity to save a life or home. A lot of Orthodox observance seems odd to Gentiles, but if you think it requires a silly answer to a serious question then the problem is probably your understanding of it. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 647 Registered: 3-2005 |
I was actually disagreeing with Guy. I don't see how this is affirmative action for Jews. | ||
| Guy Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1354 Registered: 8-2004 |
Gordon, what was the serious question? I was actually trying to point out the irony of FTP opposing a policy to help a minority group. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 1774 Registered: 8-2003  |
this is a non-issue. there are already several businesses on SA that are owned by African Americans. Off the top of my head, I can think of Soups and Scoops, the carribean restaurant, and at least one or two salons. there are probably others as well. | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 304 Registered: 8-2004 |
Sorry, I thought you seriously thought Orthodox law prohibited fighting fires on Sabbath. Anything seems possible on this thread. | ||
| Guy Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1356 Registered: 8-2004 |
No problem Gordon, I was just going with the Mel Brooks theme. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 6419 Registered: 5-2001  |
Dave- does this not qualify for pulling the thread as you indicated in Tookie's other masterpiece? | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 913 Registered: 2-2005 |
Given the post-count of the author, I have to say this is a MASTERPIECE of effective trolling. Whoever this is could be on "Bassmasters" every day - they know how to fish! | ||
| Stuart0628 Citizen Username: Stuart0628 Post Number: 190 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hopefully there are no fires on Saturday. The Jewish concept described by the Hebrew term "pikuah nefesh" applies here. The saving of a life supersedes all else. You are permitted, in fact required to break the otherwise-in-force Jewish laws in order to save lives, and that includes driving a fire truck if needed. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11558 Registered: 1-2003  |
There are Jewish ambulance squads in Brooklyn, so a fire company isn't that hard to imagine. tookiew's use of the word "displace" evokes an image of yanking people out of their homes and occupying them against the owner's wills. But I can't really envision a forced sale. People sell their houses willfully, so I can't see what's wrong with buying a house that's for sale. I can't decide if these threads are bad. They exposing racism, but the racism already existed, it seems. Maybe it's a net positive to air it, cogitate on it, and make conscious decisions of how we want to be and what we want to do and think. | ||
| marian Citizen Username: Marian Post Number: 765 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dave, please close down these offensive anti-Semitic threads this troll has been starting. | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 3686 Registered: 5-2001 |
I actually think this is very interesting. In Gravesend, Brooklyn my dad's friends were offered a TON of money for their modest home. Orthodox Jews bought out the whole block and trust me, my dad's friend wasn't complaining when he was able to retire to a 4000 sq. foot home in SOuth Jersey, and live comfortably. It would probably be a great thing for Springfield Ave! | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 5626 Registered: 5-2001  |
Tookiew? Hmmm. Let's all have a vote on who is NOT the sharpest tool in the shed here. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2433 Registered: 6-2002 |
Brett: Folks who have one Jewish parent and one non-Jewish parent consider themselves 1/2 Jewish. Being Jewish isn't just a Religion. It's more complicated. The Jews are a people. In fact the religious definition of a Jew is someone whose mother was a Jew. Groucho Marx's daughter was invited by a friend to a country club that was "restricted". No Jews allowed. Groucho wondered since she was half Jewish would they let her into the swimming pool up to her waist.  | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 2839 Registered: 9-2003 |
Dave - not only should you shut down TookieW's posts, s/he should get a lifetime time-out. I never thought I would find a poster more offensive than Strawberry, but I guess I was wrong. | ||
| Jonathan Teixeira Citizen Username: Jhntxr Post Number: 326 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tookie , we really do not need another " braiding " salon on springfield ave !!! We have enough liquor stores , we have church's fried chicken , just a couple of doors from the ' check- cashing ' place . We even have the ' bail and bonds business . What else you have in mind for Springfield ave ??? | ||
| Ceidefields Citizen Username: Ceidefields Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2005 |
When was the last time you were actually shopping on Springfield Avenue TookieW? There are tons of businesses catering to African-American taste, including a Carribean restaurant, art stores, clothing stores. Also, the last time I was in Rabbi L. Skye's bookstore on Springfield Avenue, an African-American woman was there too buying Judaica. So stating that stores run by Orthodox Jews couldn't be frequented by or attract people of all races, is completely false. As for the question of a fire brigade on Shabbos, Jewish ethics is very clear about this - someone who fails to save a life for religious reasons is known as a "pious fool" and is responsible for the death of that person. | ||
| Ceidefields Citizen Username: Ceidefields Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2005 |
And in case everyone is unaware as to what caused the Orthodox community in Maplewood to suddenly start considering an Eruv - the Orthodox Rabbi was approached by a non-Orthodox Jew in Maplewood and asked about erecting an Eruv. He has sons and daughters who are Orthodox and wanted them to be able to visit for Shabbos and perhaps move here eventually. That's what started the whole thing. The Rabbi also stated that he didn't anticipate any problems in Maplewood because we're such a diverse and understanding community. | ||
| Cleve Dark Citizen Username: Clevedark Post Number: 179 Registered: 2-2005 |
Brett, I'm curious about why you would comment that there either is a Jesus or there isn't. There was a Jesus, and he was a Jew. Now, you can either believe or not that he was the son of God, but as far as I know his existence is not debatable. Or have I missed some new archeological development? | ||
| Jonathan Ben-Asher Citizen Username: Jonathanba Post Number: 108 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'm pasting here a version of posting I did on another thread on this topic. I believe that establishing the eruv would be a big mistake. The same applies to setting up a Menorah or creche on public property. The Township's involvement in establishing the eruv has both a religious purpose and a religious effect -- the two tests the Supreme Court has used to determine if the church/state boundary is being improperly crossed. Its sole purpose is to permit members of one faith to observe religious rituals in a comfortable fashion. None of this is or should be the Township's business, even if might result in economic benefit. I am a strongly identified Jew. Always have been, always will be. If the Township proposed to string crosses(even invisible ones) from utility poles in deference to the wishes of Christians, I would be tremendously uncomfortable. I am equally uncomfortable with the Township involving itself in fostering religious observance by Jews. None of this is the proper business of government. The Town's business is governance, and the eruv embroils the town in sectarian rituals. Even deciding the question of whether an eruv is proper makes our government rule on the seriousness and deserving or non-deserving nature of a particular religious observance. It is disturbing to read how a few posters have betrayed their anti-Semitic beliefs with warnings that the eruv would essentially bring hordes of Orthodox here, who would not be the kind of people we would like to move to Maplewood. The person who started the thread talked of Fred Profeta "sucking up" to Orthodox Jews. The "sucking up" language is a wonderful reference to the time honored theory that we are an all-powerful force to reckon with. Anti Semites have long ranted that Jews control the banks, newspapers, government, Catholic Church, Communist party, Hollywood, etc. How we acquired all these assets with our legendary cheapness is an interesting question. And somehow we control all this stuff with our long tentacles, even though many of the world's nations have been deighted to beat up on us for a few millenia. A free copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to the author of the most ridiculous anti-Semitic hooey. | ||
| Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 481 Registered: 7-2004  |
I am a strongly identified Jew. Always have been, always will be. If the Township proposed to string crosses(even invisible ones) from utility poles in deference to the wishes of Christians, I would be tremendously uncomfortable. I am equally uncomfortable with the Township involving itself in fostering religious observance by Jews. Good Point, Jonathan. I am not religious and am put off by any religious symbols on public property. I wouldn't like knowing any public funds or resources were used to create a more religious environment in this community. I agree with your thoughts that this issue isn't about bigotry but about the separation of church and state. | ||
| TomR Citizen Username: Tomr Post Number: 852 Registered: 6-2001 |
Mr. Big Poppa, What public funds or resources are to be used "to create a more religious environment in this community" with respect to the eruv ? TomR | ||
| TomR Citizen Username: Tomr Post Number: 854 Registered: 6-2001 |
marian, http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3127&post=510975#POST5109 75 TomR | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 2758 Registered: 9-2001  |
Jonathon: Excellently written post. Thank you for your clear writing. However, the Town Council was voting on something that is being erected in and around the town. The fact that the thing being erected is to be of use for, and value to, a certain religious group is besides the point and should not even have been considered. What was considered was someone installing something in Town--sort of like a zoning or land use question. Perhaps it should have gone before the zoning board instead. The Tenafly decision seems to be pretty clear on this--if the Town allows other such uses (signs on telephone poles, street numbers on them, etc.) then it has to allow the eruv. It is not a question of establishment or promoting a religion over others, it is an accomodation for a requested use in the town. But I do wonder about an accomodation like this in general, and not on establishment grounds. How far does the Town now have to go to accomodate other such symbolic uses. If a local mosque wants to install loudspeakers on utility poles to remind the faithful of the time to pray, does this have to be allowed? Or is the noise issue a different class of imposition compared to the eruv? What if a pagan group moves into town and wants to erect symbolic posts on utility poles located at the four cardinal corners of the town to promote harmony so that they can pray in peace? I believe that the Tenafly decision indicates that once you make accomodation for one such use it is hard to deny that to other uses. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 2759 Registered: 9-2001 |
Some more thoughts on this fascinating and sometimes disturbing series of threads: 1. There are eruvim in Livingston, West Orange, Elizabeth, and East Brunswick. According to the following link (written by a pro-eruv writer), there have been no problems--there has not been a disinvestment in public schools, Orthodox are involved in the community, the towns have not been overrun with men wearing payes and women in scheitles. http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.05.03/oped1.html 2. The fear that the Orthodox will start moving to Maplewood in droves once there is an eruv is misplaced. An eruv will not attract more Orthodox--a strong shul will do that, as will our good quality of life, proximity to New York, etc. The eruv is a byproduct, not the cause, of Orthodox life in a community. It is not a field of dreams--build it and they will come. 3. Some of the most vocal opponents to the Tenafly eruv were other Jews. In fact, I have heard some strong anti-eruv comments from Jews in Maplewood. As a very assimilated, mainly cultural, and only vaguely religious Jew, I understand this to some degree. To some Orthodox and Hassids, I am about as Jewish as a Christmas ham served with mac and cheese. Secular Jews can experience a sense of denigration when interacting with the religious (sometimes real, sometimes imagined), and I have heard some in town say they fear that if there is a larger Orthodox community here, they will feel uncomfortable. But this is not Airmont--a small town that is easily changed by small demographic shifts. I am certain that Maplewood can accomodate diverse demographics, just as it has absorbed about 2/3 of Brooklyn in the last few years without becoming a new borough of New York. | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 402 Registered: 1-2004 |
Can you clarify for me? The fact that you refer to it as an "orthodox community" leads me to believe that they (or you) believe that they view themselves as somehow seperate from the total community. Catholics and protestants get along from what I can tell. I never hear catholics say the "catholic community" or the "protestant community" unless I guess they are referring to the greater community of similar church congregations. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 2760 Registered: 9-2001 |
My own sloppy use of language, Crabby. Sorry about that. | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 404 Registered: 1-2004 |
so they don't feel themselves as seperate from the larger community? But non-Orthodox would fear their larger presence? I'm just curious. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 2761 Registered: 9-2001 |
I am no expert on Orthodox Judaism. From my experience, some Orthodox and Hassids do consider themselves to be a community within a larger community. Others feel totally integrated into and a part of the larger community. But even those who feel more of a cohesive subset are not as intentionally removed as, say, the Old Amish. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2057 Registered: 5-2004  |
Crabby, just as some might consider an African American community within a larger community (or distinct from, but not in place of that community), so do most Orthodox Jews. It's the same connection that people with a common heritage feel toward one another. There are some (small) sects of Judaism that are insular, like the Amish. There are some that are like the Monnonites - not integrated with their communities, but are much less insular, and work for and with "outsiders." And there are some, such as Modern Orthodox, that are, outside of religious observance, fully integrated members of their communities. I still don't see what the issue with this is. Are the poles town property, or are they owned by the utilities? If the town does not own them, then any approval is ceremonial, isn't it? |
