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Message |
    
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2166
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:06 pm: |     |
I realize this isn't a "fightin' words" kind of an opening, but I just watched this on 13 and thought it was both really good, and really a good reference for some of the battles that go on here, whether about what kinds of stores should be opened on Springfield Ave, or behavior, values the whole she-bang.
Anyone else see it? It was really, really good on class issues in school, neighborhoods, the whole (as they said in the show) "gettin' above your raisin'" dilemma...
One thing I thought particularly good was that most everyone spoke of how the poor, whether white, yellow, brown or other -- were the one group everyone looks down upon. Much good material on attitudes towards working place people and values (which I think we've all seen in various threads).
If it's on again, worth a watch. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:18 pm: | |
One thing I thought particularly good was that most everyone spoke of how the poor, whether white, yellow, brown or other -- were the one group everyone looks down upon.
wow! that is some eye opening research! who would have thought that?!?!? People look down on the poor! i am stupified! |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 725
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:45 pm: | |
Sounds interesting, Cynical - I checked the website - doesn't look like it's due to be rebroadcast anytime soon, but I'll look out for it. There are fun games to play at the site (as well as info!):http://www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus/
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2167
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 6:09 am: | |
My description didn't do it justice, The Libertarian. I realize I made it sound like "this just in" and rather naive. Some of the disputes that were interesting to me:
A town council decision on whether to allow a chain supermarket to move in v a large, organic-seeming food coop. Maplewood discussions around big box stores v more niche retail.
Jack and Jill social organizations and exclusion in the African American community (this I'd heard about previously where I used to live).
The "getting ahead" value and how it plays in Appalachia and other working class areas.
Whether or not you can ever leave your class of birth (and the things people do to try to do so).
Social behaviors, appearance, clothing, cars and so on.
Attitudes towards "poor white trash" in the south.
Our kid watched some of it with us and thought it was pretty good, too. Generally, all of the material on high school was excellent. I'm not kidding when I say this was the best such treatment I've ever seen in that it hit many U.S. economic groups across the races, and the business of everyone defining themselves as middle class. The content on high school was really relevant, and how that determines later town politics. I do think that a lot of what we argue about around here has a hefty class component more than anything else. Show was really good on college educated, white liberals blindness to class, and tendency to want to tell others how best to live. It would make a pretty interesting discussion-starter in a high school class, or some place like the Ethical Culture Society.
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thegoodsgt
Citizen
Username: Thegoodsgt
Post Number: 904
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 7:55 am: | |
Paul Fussell has been my hero ever since I read his book, Class almost 20 years ago. If you haven't read it, you have no idea how phony must of us appear. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2168
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 9:19 am: | |
I read that book back when, too, thegoodsgt! I thought it was very, very well-done. He's kind of interesting -- wrote a good basic work on poetic meter I believe.
I take it you saw the show? And his commentary? I do think much of the political and other debate we see in the US has way more to do with class issues than red state/blue state, race, religion or anything else. |
Mtam
Citizen
Username: Mtam
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 10:35 am: | |
Interesting. There was also the NY Times series, How Class is Lived in America, (which followed the successful How Race is Lived series). This seems to hone in on how class is played out in specific localities? |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2169
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 11:04 am: | |
Mtam, you might like that link that doulamomma posted above. Some clips from the show, good background, quizzes etc. And, yeah, the show had segments from across the US, not just NY and so on, and hit a lot of topics where class and race intersect. I didn't see the NY Times series as I'm not a regular reader... |
Nob
Citizen
Username: Nob
Post Number: 87
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 11:14 am: | |
The NY Times articles were compiled into a book called "Class Matters" -- fascinating read. |
thegoodsgt
Citizen
Username: Thegoodsgt
Post Number: 907
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 2:31 pm: | |
Cynicalgirl, make sure you read David Brooks Bobos in Paradise, also an insightful read into the American subconscious.
Unfortunately I did not see the show, but my wife and I are fascinated with class issues and read about it quite a bit. We're class "tweeners" ourselves, stuck somewhere between our humble socio-economic roots and our newfound M/SO yuppy lifestyle. We don't completely fit in either place, so we enjoy just observing everyone's behavior and talking about it over dinner. There's so much to laugh at! I'm hoping Fussell updates his book, even though his observations are as valid today as when he published his book.
The PBS show is going to air again this Thursday, so I'm going to tape it. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2170
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 3:11 pm: | |
I read Bobos in Paradise!
I number of the commentators and persons interviewed are kind of in the same place you describe. Working class or similar parents, went to college, went to college at a certain time and developed tastes/interests/values that are significantly different than "home."
Some good stuff on "white trash" and rednecks who want to stay that way, on blue collar people who want to stay that way, and the perils of being "bougie" in AA circles. Often in our town, I think, the educated do want to tell others what to eat, and why, and what to value because they know best. Some folks just aren't havin' it, and wish to keep their lawn statues, or simpler life styles, or whatever. Striving just isn't a plus, in any way....
I think you'd like the show. |
Cleve Dark
Citizen
Username: Clevedark
Post Number: 199
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 4:06 pm: | |
I read Bobos in Paradise, but didn't see this PBS special, which I'll look out for this Thursday. I also read the Class Matters series, which struck me as somewhat shallow--just reporting on what is, instead of looking for root causes in government policy.
On the same topic, there was a very interesting editorial by Brent Staples in the Times last week, about where the AA elite originated. A professor at Morehouse asked his students in the 40s how many of them had grandparents who could read, which was highly unusual for slaves. Fifty percent of them raised their hands. That skill was treasured and used immediately upon emancipation, to keep property and start businesses. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2172
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 9:33 pm: | |
The Talk Back bulletin board on the site referenced above is pretty cool if you find yourself interested in the "fate" of some of the people interviewed. Also, some of the discussions sounded powerfully like MOL!
Apparently this program has been available on video and is used in some classes as a disussion starter across races, among various high school students and so on. Really, the more I read of it the more I think this show/discussion would be a helpful window/new perspective on some of the issues that turn up around here. Ever since moving here 2 years and change ago, and participating in MOL, it as struck me that a lot local issues are more about class than anything else. They just get portrayed in a kind of reductionist manner as Dem v Repub or White v Black v Brown. Don't think that's always at the heart of it. |
amandacat
Citizen
Username: Amandacat
Post Number: 965
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 8:59 pm: | |
When is this playing on Thursday, and on which channel? Couldn't find a listing for it on Tivo . . . |
Ligeti
Citizen
Username: Ligeti
Post Number: 530
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 9:08 pm: | |
Thurs. Jan. 5, 9:00 a.m. & 12:00 p.m.
WDET
CH. 713 (Cablevision in S. Orange; check the PBS.org site if you need the Comcast channel)
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kathleen
Citizen
Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 438
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 10:01 pm: | |
Then why bring up "white liberals," cynicalgirl? I haven't seen the program, but you're like a broken record on this topic ever since you arrived in Maplewood -- or at least on MOL. It hasn't been "white liberals" who were trying to make other people conform to their religious rites (that was you) and it hasn't been white liberals who've been hating the poor so much they egged on dumbing down education and abandoning of the safety net for all those "non-strivers" it seems to me that conservatives constantly lecture to go get real and sink or swim.
Sorry if it bothers you to hear evidence that transfat and smoking can give you a stroke, and pesticide-driven agribusiness is destoying biodiversity, but I imagine educated people aren't really investing all that much energy in the holdouts of your generation any more anyway. They're probably trying to get through to your kids. Try not to resent it too much.
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Cleve Dark
Citizen
Username: Clevedark
Post Number: 211
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 10:42 pm: | |
Wha???? |
Mtam
Citizen
Username: Mtam
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 11:40 pm: | |
???? ditto |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2181
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 5:43 am: | |
kathleen, I fit the educated, white liberal stereotype more than I fit most others. I have made the egotistical mistakes many of the white liberals depicted in the program make -- if their goal is really to help others in their community or family. Somehow I suspect you've made those same mistakes, somewhere in your present/past. And somehow I suspect that my generation = your generation, at least in terms of age and galvanizing events.
Guess your bored and looking to stir the pot. |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 776
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 10:10 am: | |
Thanks, Ligeti, for posting the air times..I was able to tivo it. I think I had seen bits of it before, but it was great. My heart broke for some of the people - the woman from KY who couldn't really talk with her dad anymore, the boy who was ashamed of his mom's Burger King outfit, the kids who assumed that their parents' money made them entitled to more of it & better than...the other folks who are neither black enough nor white enough for some...but the one wasp guy was incredible - I kept thinking he was trying to be sarcastic (or "sardonic - an SAT word"), but I guess he wasn't after all.
That particular PBS is HiDef format. The irony didn't excape me that as I watched this hidef PBS show about class saved on tivo, I was doing so on a pretty swanky TV...at least I wasn't wearing Abercromby at the time...
I've added "BoBos In Paradise" to my reading list - seems like I might see some things that look familiar, LOL.
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2190
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 11:14 am: | |
What did you think of the grocery store bit? That one really struck me, as I had seen a somewhat similar situation where I used to live. Also saw that kind of conflict when some hippie people I knew in Ann Arbor where trying to regroove some poor white people from Ypsilanti...
doulamomma, the talk board bbs on the PBS site showed some cool stuff related to getting money to the BK lady for her car and similar. |
Straw06
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6631
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 11:43 am: | |
Kathleen gives white liberals a bad name. Keep in mind white liberals as a general rule work and accomplish. This is not the case with Kathleen who rarely leaves her house.
C-girl. Ignore her foolishness. Everyone else does.
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doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 777
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 9:35 pm: | |
Cyn,
I think it's wild that: (a) the more years of education, the more likely to eat whole wheat/not eat white bread & (b) that education:bread was studied!
Regroove, indeed
I'll check out the site for followups - thanks |
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