| Author | Message | ||
     eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 1271 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here's a clue - if your adorable toddler starts to scream like a banshee (what is a banshee?) as soon as you put him in the high chair it might be a good idea to get your meal to go. I've never seen parents who seemed so completely oblivious of what to do when their kid screeches to the point that everyone is craning their necks to see what the heck is going on. UGGGHHH - just had to vent! | ||
| bottomline Citizen Username: Bottomline Post Number: 362 Registered: 8-2003 |
In my twenties, before I was married, I did a lot of business travel. I would sometimes sit on an airplane and listen to a screaming toddler and say to myself, "Can't they shut that kid up?" A few years later I had a child of my own and I learned the answer to that question. Having seen and lived both sides of the situation, I no longer see this as a black-and-white issue. Sometimes parents should pull the rip chord and get the hell out. Other times, the rest of us should just cope and and smile and admit that babies are an essential part of the human population. | ||
| eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 1273 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have a child and I am understanding of certain behaviors - this was above and beyond and frankly it was the parents' behavior that was more offensive than the kid's. | ||
| Meandtheboys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 2553 Registered: 12-2004  |
ban·shee also ban·shie A female spirit in Gaelic folklore believed to presage, by wailing, a death in a family. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1238 Registered: 3-2004 |
Banshees walk around the perimeter of a house where a death is to occur, combing their long tresses. They don't wail (like mourners), they keen or lament. My mother swears she saw the banshee around the family farm before her older sister died. As to the wailing, balling child: we've all experienced it, and many of us have been parents living through it. I believe that when a child screams to the point that other diners' enjoyment is affected, courtesy requires that one leave the establishment. We do seem to be short of that sort of public courtesy these days. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1165 Registered: 3-2004  |
Other times, the rest of us should just cope and and smile and admit that babies are an essential part of the human population absolutely not! you chose to have the kid, dont impose on me with your reproductive choice. its a restaurant where people go to eat and relax, not listen to your offspring cry. take responsibility and get a doggie bag. if you didnt want to deal with a crying baby you shouldnt have had one. | ||
| wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 1935 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hey Lib, Isn't it up to the restaurant to ban small kids? You of course have the right to choose to look for a restaurant that doesn't allow them. Or better yet if no restaurant chooses to impinge on parents' liberty maybe you should just stay in the privacy of your childless home.  (For those who don't get it check out the smoking thread on the Maplewood Topic) | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1241 Registered: 3-2004 |
No way. The Libertarian (god help me) is right. My child's behavior is my business, yes, but also my responsibility. If I take the same child to the theater or a movie, and the child causes that disruption, I would have to leave with it. Why should it be any different at a restaurant? I might quibble about Trattoria being a restaurant, but that's another topic. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 964 Registered: 2-2005 |
No need to ban children... but if the kid starts screaming, one of the parents picks it up and takes it outside for a "time out" or "a little talk", depending on the age. Its just common sense. | ||
| eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 1274 Registered: 5-2001 |
Exactly Case - that's all I would expect. These parents looked at their kid like he was a martian. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1169 Registered: 3-2004 |
Or better yet if no restaurant chooses to impinge on parents' liberty maybe you should just stay in the privacy of your childless home that is why i CHOOSE not to go to places that are "kid friendly". i dont think kids should be banned. i think the responsible parent should leave with an unruly or crying child. i dont like the whole "oh sorry, you will have to deal with it. you know how kids are" philosophy of some parents. no, its your kid and you are imposing on everybody else. you deal with it. again, if you dont want to take on all of the responsibilities of having a child then you shouldnt have had one. i hear that it is common knowledge that children have a tendency to cry. shouldnt be a surprise. | ||
| wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 1938 Registered: 5-2001 |
Innisowen - your 8:11 post was right. That doesn't make what loonitarian said right. It's subtle but you didn't insult and you also may not have been aware of the smoking thread. I was just making a point. Of course the child should be removed when it affects the other diners. Wendy Lauter | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1172 Registered: 3-2004 |
"but you didn't insult " "loonitarian" "this one poster should serve as the poster child to define hypocrtical. " | ||
| bottomline Citizen Username: Bottomline Post Number: 364 Registered: 8-2003 |
You got it backwards Libby. Why aren't the parents excercising their personal freedom by being in the restaurant with their screaming kid? If you don't like the screaming kid, tough luck. Take a hike. Who are you to decide what's right for them or for the other patrons? Is it because you're in the majority? | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1174 Registered: 3-2004 |
because this isnt a matter of law, its a matter of manners. if manners were law, half this message board would be doing 20 to life. it is nice to know though, that if we are ever in the same restaurant and there is a screaming baby near me, you will happily switch tables with me. Thanks! | ||
| eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 1276 Registered: 5-2001 |
Entitlement has reached a new low with bottomline... | ||
| bmpsab Citizen Username: Bmpsab Post Number: 180 Registered: 3-2001 |
I have to say you can't compare a screaming child on an airplane to a screaming child in a restaurant. Unfortunately, there is no where to go on an airplane. In a restaurant, however, even a kid friendly restaurant, common courtesy still requires the parents of a screaming child to take the child from the restaurant until they calm down. As a mother of twin toddlers I have done my fair share of this. Why should my child spoil other peoples' meals? Kid friendly to me means that if the child is a bit louder than adults, or cries for a short period of time (definitely under 5 minutes) it is to be expected. But a long drawn out temper tantrum? Just not acceptable. Sorry folks. | ||
| wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 1941 Registered: 5-2001 |
I could be wrong but bottomline and I are probably in agreement with all of you here except for Lib. It was Lib who said this: "dont impose on me with your reproductive choice. its a restaurant where people go to eat and relax, not listen to your offspring cry." [emphasis added] The owner at Trattoria would have every right to ask that family to leave actually because of that imposition on other diners. What the smoking thread is talking about is giving those same rights against imposition of second-hand smoke to diners. And since no restaurant/bar owner wants to be the only one to lose the business of these big imposers it is up to the government to even out the playing field for the public and the business owner. | ||
| mwsilva Citizen Username: Mwsilva Post Number: 474 Registered: 5-2002 |
Wendy, It is not up to the Trat. to ban kids, it is not a problem of George Bush to solve. Parents need to take ownership and personal responibilty and take the kid out. I did it when my daughter launched into a fit. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8288 Registered: 4-1997  |
I had a great time at the Gaslight this evening.  | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2473 Registered: 6-2002 |
A solution to please my Libertarian friend: If the kid screams, stick a cigarette in its mouth. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8290 Registered: 4-1997 |
Why not? It's the parents' right, isn't it? According to Libertarian thought, government has no right to impose age limits or any limits. Libertarians want to stop searching airplane passengers for weapons. Loonies. | ||
| wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 1943 Registered: 5-2001 |
mwsilva, there's some good reading comprehension courses out there. Give them a try. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1179 Registered: 3-2004 |
What the smoking thread is talking about is giving those same rights against imposition of second-hand smoke to diners. that is not what the smoking thread is about at all. the discussion has become one on the reduction of personal freedom. you have completely missed the point. Libertarians want to stop searching airplane passengers for weapons. Loonies. there are misguided factions in all political parties. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8291 Registered: 4-1997 |
Yes, but those parties don't usually run them for governor of a state that was directly impacted by 9/11. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1181 Registered: 3-2004 |
do you go along with every plank and statement of the democratic machine? cause there are some real doozies. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8293 Registered: 4-1997 |
But letting babies scream near diners ain't one of them. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1184 Registered: 3-2004 |
guess you told me. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11796 Registered: 1-2003  |
It's bad manners to smoke in a restaurant. It imposes the smoker's choice on the other diners. | ||
| Tom N Citizen Username: Tjn Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2005 |
What's a Banshee? I thought everyone knew they back up Siouxsie Sioux! | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 145 Registered: 10-2005 |
I think I agree with the post that there are some places where it's our obligation to tolerate screaming kids (Planes/Trains/Grocery Stores) and others where we should not tolerate it (restaurants, theaters). We've chosen not to take our toddler out to Restaurants because a) She's in bed by dinnertime and keeping her up so we can "enjoy" a night out seems selfish b) What enjoyment do we get when we're nervous about having the baby going on tilt? Not worth it. c) After 5 years of eating out 5-6 nights a week, we could use the break :-) | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4303 Registered: 5-2001  |
Tom Rein - good one! | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3931 Registered: 12-2001  |
Mwsilva said "and take the kid out.". That seems rather extreme treatment of a child having a tantrum. | ||
| redY67 Citizen Username: Redy67 Post Number: 4774 Registered: 2-2003  |
Sometimes children act up when they go out. As a parent, I take my kids out to help teach them how to behave in a restaurant. I go to places like the Trattoria, kid friendly places. I was not there, so I don't know the situation. However I do know if my kids start acting up like that I will take them outside as to not disturb people around me. If you go to a family friendly restaraunt, you should expect loud children. | ||
| Camnol Citizen Username: Camnol Post Number: 198 Registered: 3-2005 |
eliz, I agree with you. I have 3 boys. When they were small, my husband and I logged a lot of hours eating in shifts because someone was losing it or eating very quickly, because small children have a short attention span. We didn't want to raise children that think it's ok to run around a restaurant. Now that our boys are older, they are a pleasure to take to restaurants. We were at Bunny's before Christmas and 3 families came in together, with a bunch of children. They let the children run wild while the adults had a grand time. The waitresses had to keep dodging their toddler and were visibly frustrated, but they said nothing. We were at the Parkwood a few weeks ago and two moms where there with about 3 or 4 preschoolers dressed in ballet costumes. The moms where having a leisurely conversation while the children ran and danced in the aisle (bumping into our table a few times). Twice, Pete spoke to the children and told them they must sit down. The mothers never said a word. Wait staff should not have to dodge "the precious ones." Airplanes and other contained situations are another thing altogether--though if someone's way of letting junior entertain himself is to shake my seatback for the entire flight... Sorry, had to vent. It drives me nuts to see children running through restaurants. | ||
| redY67 Citizen Username: Redy67 Post Number: 4776 Registered: 2-2003 |
I absolutely agree with you Camnol, drives me nuts as well. We were at The Gate a few weeks ago, and two moms came in with a gaggle of kids. The kids were running around, up to our table, staring at our food. One kid even took a french fry off my plate. The mother's were doing nothing to stop it. Horrible behavior. | ||
| thoughtful Citizen Username: Thoughtful Post Number: 171 Registered: 6-2001 |
You know, if Adam and Eve had done the right thing and not burdened any of us with their reproductive choices, we could all enjoy quiet dinners in restaurants. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1220 Registered: 5-2001 |
It's all a matter of degree, I think. I've been known to let my toddler walk around a restaurant while keeping a careful eye on him, judging the responses of the other diners and keeping him out of the path of the staff. Most of the time he's just walking, occasionally stopping to look at someone. | ||
| Camnol Citizen Username: Camnol Post Number: 199 Registered: 3-2005 |
A lot of it depends on the parent's response and how much the child is getting in the way of the waiters/waitresses. If your child is just wandering around, but the servers are having a tough time seeing him/her over their trays, then no, it's not a good idea. My husband and I were at the Gate once, without our kids. We were seated right next to a table that had a few couples and a 2 1/2 year old girl. We were very interesting to the little one (go figure!) and the father was trying very hard to keep her away from us. She was just charming and we were enjoying our conversation with her, and we kept reasurring her dad that we were just fine, but we appreciated his concern. But more and more I see children running (and I mean running) around while parents are totally oblivious--like RedY's experience. | ||
| juju's petals Citizen Username: Jujus_petals Post Number: 206 Registered: 5-2003  |
I love children in general and mine in particular. But, when my husband and I go out to dinner without the kids, we specifically avoid the kid friendly places. I've even asked to be seated away from other people's children because I'm trying to get away from that. I'm willing to admit that for date-night I've even made restaurant choices based on places least likely to have the presence of children . . . it is usually some combination of an abundance of pointy objects, jello shots and the presence of pornography. Or not. But, this issue comes up like an old saw (nevermind banshees -- what's an old saw got to do with it?) and I think one person's (parents AND listeners) short shriek and wiggling is another person's screaming fit and wild disregard for others. |
