| Author | Message | ||
     Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2005 |
A Catholic, I personally welcome the Orthodox Jewish communit to Springfield Avenue- and encourage them to set up shops, deli's and whatever else that can establish a tax base that can be built up. As a Hispanic minority, I don;t see the "racism" in attracting this community- all races and types have had the opportunity to build businesses in the area - there has been outreaching to all communities and faiths. Those who see this as a rasict approach should look into the mirror at their own rasict view. | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2005 |
Furthermore, I support the Eruv on the basis that it be funded privately and that the strands be of plain color without stamping. I am not familiar with this orthodox requirement, but if the faith requires it I have no problem. Question: why doesn't the rabbi and/or competent authority bless and make sacred a map with the markings on it? I don't mean to be funny - just a question. | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 6835 Registered: 5-2001 |
Alberto: Members of the Orthodox Jewish Commity need to see the demarcations of the eruv so they can be sure to carry carry things on the Sabbath only within the eruv's boundaries. Just outlining the eruv on a map wouldn't accomplish that. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11586 Registered: 1-2003  |
I believe the eruv extends the boundaries of "home". Normally, you can't carry stuff outside the home, so if the eruv defines home, you're still home if you're in it. And I guess that's why a map won't do. | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2005 |
If the need is to expand the "home" to an area that allows for the faithful to transit, then in my view the eruv should expand as far as it needs to accomodate that need. | ||
| malone Citizen Username: Malone Post Number: 293 Registered: 5-2001 |
I can't help but wonder, if the othodox religion requires that they not be out and about doing this or that on the Sabbath, then why don't they just follow the religion insted of looking for the town to give them a way to get around it? Kind of goes against the spirit of the religion doesn't it? Or then again, they could just get the Rabbis to declare the whole country a safe area, and then they could do whatever they want, wherever they want. | ||
| aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 636 Registered: 8-2001 |
How did Moses carry his "stuff" whilst wandering in the desert for 40 years? Like the tablets and torahs and stuff. Was there an eruv in the desert? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3149 Registered: 5-2001  |
On Saturday, they rested...and didn't carry their "stuff". Just like anything in religion, you make up the rules that suit you - Some "Right-to-life" fanatics are anti-abortion, but pro-war and pro-death penalty. I've known people who are strictly Kosher and don't eat Pork (except in Chinese Food) and don't mix meat with milk (except in Mexican Food). There are people who are Catholic who do "what the pope says" and others who do "what the Bible says" and others who pick and choose what they are comfortable with. The point is that we shouldn't JUDGE different interpretations of someone's view on religion. As long as what they are requesting has no impact on YOU and doesn't harm anyone, why does anyone care? | ||
| TomR Citizen Username: Tomr Post Number: 857 Registered: 6-2001 |
How does one pronounce the word eruv? TomR | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2067 Registered: 5-2004  |
a bit like EH-roov or AY-roov, depending on inflection... | ||
| TomR Citizen Username: Tomr Post Number: 866 Registered: 6-2001 |
Danke. TomR | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 994 Registered: 7-2001 |
I'm against this , every Jewish friend I have from Livingston To Orange Co. NY, says this is a bad idea . | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 2983 Registered: 5-2001 |
I don't get what is bad about it. It supports certain people in adhering to the tenets of their religion and is basically invisible to the rest of us. No tax money is used to set it up. It certainly isn't appropriate to criticize the associated religious belief however much one may disagree with it. So, what's the problem? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2076 Registered: 5-2004 |
Jet, why did they say it was a bad idea? I'm really curious... The only possible reason I can think of is that it allows extremely orthodox Jewish families to move to town. If they or you have a problem with that, fine. Come out and say it. I personally have no problem sith someone saying "I don't want xxx living near me." Doing something to prevent it is another thing, but everyone is entitiled to their opinions. | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 996 Registered: 7-2001 |
Well Rastro, what I've been told is SOP for Orthdox Jews is 1} take over the school board 2} turn their house into a synagogue & take it off the tax rolls 3} start forcing stores to close on Sat. . Also many orthdox jewish families have 6 to as many as 12 kids . I'm no expert in this area , but I was really surprized by the near identical opposition by Jewish friends to the establishment of a eruv in Mwood. | ||
| steven Citizen Username: Steven Post Number: 70 Registered: 6-2001 |
jet, I suppose you would be opposed to police officers moving into town too. They are all Irish and we all know that Irish people have boatloads of kids. (remember, every sprem is sacred) And think of how expensive potatoes will become. Oh, and be on the lookout for those Spanish people. I will not stand to have a taco store on every corner. Oy vey, and the Polish, who will change their lightbulbs? When will the madness stop? I suggest you get your head out of your a-- and realize that we cannot control who lives where or how they choose to procreate. | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 997 Registered: 7-2001 |
Yea we can ,steven, we can not establish a eruv . Now run along & don't come back unless you have something usefull to add, BTW when I'm told to stick my head up my a-- I like it done in person so I can have a catchy come back. So why don't you suggest someplace to meet. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10129 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think Jet's friends are talking about some of the Towns in Rockland County that have become Hasidic enclaves. Someone else posted about Brooklyn, probably the Garrison Beach area, which is rapidly becoming an Orthodox area according to a co-worker who lives there. She is planning on selling at a good profit btw. I doubt that Maplewood is going to become the new in place for the ultra-Orthodox to be quite honest. The Eruv will help the people who live here, some of whom many of us know I am sure and possibly help with the revitalization of Springfield Avenue. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2153 Registered: 5-2001 |
SOP for Orthdox Jews is 1) take over the school board 2) turn their house into a synagogue & take it off the tax rolls 3) start forcing stores to close on Sat. . Also many orthdox jewish families have 6 to as many as 12 kids . 1) Orthodox Jews do not use public schools in general (they send their kids to parochial schools or yeshivas)and do not generally even participate in school boards, much less 'take them over'. What they do, however, is pay property taxes that support the schools they don't use. 2) This is just too stupid to warrant a response. 3) Orthodox owned stores and restaurants are closed on Saturday. Nobody else is forced to observe the Jewish sabbath. And about the 6-12 kids thing...if they're not in the public schools, why in the world would you care? There can be a legitimate debate about the propriety of a town-sanctioned eruv. Jonathan Ben-Asher, sac, and Eats Shoots have all brought up some of the nuances of this debate. But Jet and Tookie are basically saying, "We don't want that kind around here", and that's just not acceptable.} | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2464 Registered: 6-2002 |
Stereotyping Orthodox Jews is as dumb as stereotyping any large group. There are "Modern Orthodox" and "Right-Wing" Orthodox and Hassidim of various sects. And within each group the members are individuals, they are no all alike. The only "SOP" is following the tenents of their religion. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2081 Registered: 5-2004 |
Jet, Jews typically do not care what Gentiles in the neighborhood do. Why would they care of a store is open on Saturday? There is no requirement in Judaism that no one work on Shabbas, only that Jews not work. As Debby points out, Orthodox Jews typically do not participate in the public school systems of the towns they are in. There have been some extreme cases in New York State (which I, personally, feel the state handled poorly), but there is no reason to believe there would be any problems in Maplewood. If you don't like the idea of Orthodox Jews moving into the neighborhood, fine. Just say so. You have every right to your opinion. But without a rational reason, it's just bigotry. And while I don't condone Steven's sarcasm, "a friend told me Orthodox Jews are like this..." is not exactly adding to the conversation either. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2082 Registered: 5-2004 |
And I hope no one takes my comment of "If you don't like the idea of Orthodox Jews moving into the neighborhood, fine. Just say so. You have every right to your opinion. But without a rational reason, it's just bigotry" to mean that there is no rational reason to oppose an eruv. That's a separate discussion, IMNSHO. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10146 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sorry, but my nephew used to work as a cop in Crown Heights. The Hasidim took exception to stores being opened and people driving cars in their neighbrohood on Saturdays. Most was just spitting and obstructing traffic by walking in the streets, but sometimes it got a little more violent, although as I said before I don't expect this sort of thing to happen here. | ||
| Fight the power Citizen Username: Tookiew Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2005 |
Any group of people who believe that they and only they are righteous ends up being bigoted, judgemental, and destructive of a civil society. It is the way of the world. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11681 Registered: 1-2003 |
Quite true! I hope that you realize that righteous indignation over the erection of the eruv is as destructive and bigoted as spitting and obstructing traffic. Let them have what they want, as long as it continues to let you have what you want. | ||
| Fight the power Citizen Username: Tookiew Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2005 |
The problem is that once the orthodox move in they will start to infringe on my rights if they become a voting bloc. I am happy to live well enough alone but they won't. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11687 Registered: 1-2003 |
That's a lot of assumptions you're making there! | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1650 Registered: 12-2003  |
Sorry I'm late, but what's all this about Jews moving to New Jersey? Don't tell me I have to move AGAIN. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2084 Registered: 5-2004 |
How will they infringe on your rights, and what will they vote as a bloc on? Do you think other groups vote as bloc's? In South Orange, people court the "elderly" vote and the "student" vote and the "African American" vote. Any group could possibly be a voting bloc. Cmonty, next thing you know, they'll let Jews move into Tennessee or Idaho. What's next? Dogs and cats living together?   | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8252 Registered: 4-1997  |
I think the voting fears emerge from stories like this: http://www.forward.com/articles/3207 As we don't vote on school budgets, the fear seems unfounded. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8256 Registered: 4-1997 |
BBC's "Things we didn't know this time last year…"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4566526.stm | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2087 Registered: 5-2004 |
Given the amount of jaywalking on Maplewood, wouldn't that mean every single Orthodox Jew would be jaywalking 24 hours a day?  | ||
| ger Citizen Username: Tacit Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 |
The articles relating to the eruv are not very specific as to which Orthodox community is interested in moving to Maplewood, so it's hard to determine the impact of its placment. I don't believe the religious symbol-on-public-property issue is the real problem - it's really a canrd. The issue is whether there has been a decision to "flood" the community buy overpaying for homes. However, if Mapewood has been "selected" as a target area by one of the ultra-orthodox groups, I am not sure that the people on the message board understand the significance of the swiftness of the decision, or what it portends about the town's politicians, or the town's future. People from certain parts of Brooklyn, as well as Lakewood, can tell you what happened to their neighborhoods - and it did not include even the facade of diversity. By the way, if you have the chance, visit Lakewood, don't just accept people's assertions about the non-impact of the eruv there. I have copied a blog post that gives you some idea of the monolithic plans that accompany the moves sometimes made by large sections of an ultra-orthodox community. A simple religious artifact that allows even further diversity in the community is a great idea. If, however,the placement has been quietly orchestrated to but out sections of the town, I think most progressive people in the town will be shocked at the impact on the town. And the claim that this a not a real concern is naive at best, misleading at worst. If you see a flood of house sales and zoning variances being approved for huge residential buildings - be afraid. If not, enjoy the new neighbors. http://www.chakira.blog-city.com/hassidim_eye_waterbury_for_new_settlement.htm Hassidim Eye Waterbury for New Settlement « H » Josh :: email link Rabbi Asher Eckstein is a dayan of Belz in Boro Park, and he has embarked on a new venture, with the approval, if not the cooperation of the rebbe, to move 2,000 Belzers and Bobovers (Ger and Vizhnitz are also interested) to Waterbury, Connecticut. Waterbury, my erstwhile readers may remember, is the home of the Waterbury Yeshiva. While this yeshiva is as far from Hassidic as Flatbush is from Boro Park, it has opened up a new frontier, not least in the minds of myopic Hassidim. The plan for the new development is tentative. In fact, even the Waterbury location is tentative, and other ideas (like a Philly suburb) haven’t yet been tabled. The idea is to build the houses at a reduced rate, and to somehow keep out investors until there is some critical mass. If investment persists nonetheless to drive up prices (as it tends to do in an open market), Eckstein and his cohorts say that they’ll abort the project. If the reasons for choosing to move out of BP are clear, the motivations to move to Waterbury are less clear. One important factor is the fact that the frontier has been opened up, and that an eruv is going up. The city is on the mental map of right-wing Orthodoxy, thanks to Rabbi Kaufman and his Yeshiva. Eckstein thinks that “Waterbury is a city; there are parnassas there.” This seems somewhat implausible. In my travels in Waterbury, I saw few parnassas (besides the real estate speculation that Eckstein wants to avoid) and lots of urban poverty. Whatever the outcome, it is at least important that Hassidim have realized the need to leave BP. Whether they end up in Waterbuy, Philly, Lakewood, or someplace unanticipated, a real estate reshuffle seems like an imminent and important development. posted Sunday, 13 February 2005 A visitor made this comment, There has been talk for sometime about a massive Chasidic migration to NJ , PA or CT. Chasidim love to talk "men shmuest". As Rabbi Mayer Schiller once pointed out talking for Chasidim is one of the few outlets of pleasure left to Chasidim. Eating and talking. Of course the Chafetz chaim Heritage Foundation would like to deny them that outlet as well.(By the way is it not time someone investigated those people. What do they do with all their money ? Buy gags ? Waterbury is a city of blight and poverty. The yeshiva made a deal for the ex-UCONN campus so it pays for them to be there. Remember a yeshiva is not a kehilla its basically bachurim waiting to get married or a few dozen kollel people not interested in work. So employment or suitable housing are marginal issues.Presently Waterbury is made up of faculty and students and a few people who have jobs elsewhere. For 1,000 Chasidic families to move to Waterbury one would need hundreds of housing units and large units at that. Where would these guys work ? I guess 1 could be the cook at the yeshiva another the manager of the yeshiva, a 3rd could sell Cholent Thurs evening, but what about the 995 other rosh hamishpachoth? The solution to the Chasidic housing problem is what Satmar is doing -pushing into under populated Black area or industrial zones no longer used in Brooklyn. Neither NJ , Waterbury or Phil. offers any solution to the critical housing problem. Furthermore Waterbury is at least 1 and 1/2 hours from NY with no direct rail connection.Chasidim in the US like to live next to their in laws and parents. And for good reason , only the financial and actual physical support of their extended families (EGF in laws older and younger sisters enable them to function as a working home with an average of 8-12 children) Read Richard Rubensteins autobio POWER STRUGGLE for a look on how a BT family could not cope with several small children without the extended family network. Bayswater satmar community although numbering about 200 families was a failure as few families desired to live there. One can only imagine how amany Belzer , Bobover, Kluizenebrger Vishnitz etc will chose to leave their extended family networks and try to double digit int terms of family. Only if a member of the Bobov royal family or a Vishnitz son led the Exodus could this have a chance . | ||
| ger Citizen Username: Tacit Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2005 |
The articles relating to the eruv are not very specific as to which Orthodox community is interested in moving to Maplewood, so it's hard to determine the impact of its placment. I don't believe the religious symbol-on-public-property issue is the real problem - it's really a canrd. The issue is whether there has been a decision to "flood" the community buy overpaying for homes. However, if Mapewood has been "selected" as a target area by one of the ultra-orthodox groups, I am not sure that the people on the message board understand the significance of the swiftness of the decision, or what it portends about the town's politicians, or the town's future. People from certain parts of Brooklyn, as well as Lakewood, can tell you what happened to their neighborhoods - and it did not include even the facade of diversity. By the way, if you have the chance, visit Lakewood, don't just accept people's assertions about the non-impact of the eruv there. I have copied a blog post that gives you some idea of the monolithic plans that accompany the moves sometimes made by large sections of an ultra-orthodox community. A simple religious artifact that allows even further diversity in the community is a great idea. If, however,the placement has been quietly orchestrated to but out sections of the town, I think most progressive people in the town will be shocked at the impact on the town. And the claim that this a not a real concern is naive at best, misleading at worst. If you see a flood of house sales and zoning variances being approved for huge residential buildings - be afraid. If not, enjoy the new neighbors. http://www.chakira.blog-city.com/hassidim_eye_waterbury_for_new_settlement.htm Hassidim Eye Waterbury for New Settlement « H » Josh :: email link Rabbi Asher Eckstein is a dayan of Belz in Boro Park, and he has embarked on a new venture, with the approval, if not the cooperation of the rebbe, to move 2,000 Belzers and Bobovers (Ger and Vizhnitz are also interested) to Waterbury, Connecticut. Waterbury, my erstwhile readers may remember, is the home of the Waterbury Yeshiva. While this yeshiva is as far from Hassidic as Flatbush is from Boro Park, it has opened up a new frontier, not least in the minds of myopic Hassidim. The plan for the new development is tentative. In fact, even the Waterbury location is tentative, and other ideas (like a Philly suburb) haven’t yet been tabled. The idea is to build the houses at a reduced rate, and to somehow keep out investors until there is some critical mass. If investment persists nonetheless to drive up prices (as it tends to do in an open market), Eckstein and his cohorts say that they’ll abort the project. If the reasons for choosing to move out of BP are clear, the motivations to move to Waterbury are less clear. One important factor is the fact that the frontier has been opened up, and that an eruv is going up. The city is on the mental map of right-wing Orthodoxy, thanks to Rabbi Kaufman and his Yeshiva. Eckstein thinks that “Waterbury is a city; there are parnassas there.” This seems somewhat implausible. In my travels in Waterbury, I saw few parnassas (besides the real estate speculation that Eckstein wants to avoid) and lots of urban poverty. Whatever the outcome, it is at least important that Hassidim have realized the need to leave BP. Whether they end up in Waterbuy, Philly, Lakewood, or someplace unanticipated, a real estate reshuffle seems like an imminent and important development. posted Sunday, 13 February 2005 A visitor made this comment, There has been talk for sometime about a massive Chasidic migration to NJ , PA or CT. Chasidim love to talk "men shmuest". As Rabbi Mayer Schiller once pointed out talking for Chasidim is one of the few outlets of pleasure left to Chasidim. Eating and talking. Of course the Chafetz chaim Heritage Foundation would like to deny them that outlet as well.(By the way is it not time someone investigated those people. What do they do with all their money ? Buy gags ? Waterbury is a city of blight and poverty. The yeshiva made a deal for the ex-UCONN campus so it pays for them to be there. Remember a yeshiva is not a kehilla its basically bachurim waiting to get married or a few dozen kollel people not interested in work. So employment or suitable housing are marginal issues.Presently Waterbury is made up of faculty and students and a few people who have jobs elsewhere. For 1,000 Chasidic families to move to Waterbury one would need hundreds of housing units and large units at that. Where would these guys work ? I guess 1 could be the cook at the yeshiva another the manager of the yeshiva, a 3rd could sell Cholent Thurs evening, but what about the 995 other rosh hamishpachoth? The solution to the Chasidic housing problem is what Satmar is doing -pushing into under populated Black area or industrial zones no longer used in Brooklyn. Neither NJ , Waterbury or Phil. offers any solution to the critical housing problem. Furthermore Waterbury is at least 1 and 1/2 hours from NY with no direct rail connection.Chasidim in the US like to live next to their in laws and parents. And for good reason , only the financial and actual physical support of their extended families (EGF in laws older and younger sisters enable them to function as a working home with an average of 8-12 children) Read Richard Rubensteins autobio POWER STRUGGLE for a look on how a BT family could not cope with several small children without the extended family network. Bayswater satmar community although numbering about 200 families was a failure as few families desired to live there. One can only imagine how amany Belzer , Bobover, Kluizenebrger Vishnitz etc will chose to leave their extended family networks and try to double digit int terms of family. Only if a member of the Bobov royal family or a Vishnitz son led the Exodus could this have a chance . | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1276 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ger, I can't see much parallel between a possible Chassidic community move to Waterbury (depressed and inexpensive real estate) and the potential impact of an eruv in Maplewood, which has very expensive real estate and an orthodox population that is either Modern Orthodox or Lubovitch, neither of which live in the sort of single-location concentrated community that the above blog describes (more typical of non-Lubovitch Chassidim, I believe). Flood Maplewood by overpaying for homes???? I don't think so. | ||
| shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 1134 Registered: 7-2002 |
Tell me, what has been the impact of the eruvim on the Upper West Side and Upper East Side of Manhattan?? | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2304 Registered: 3-2003 |
Ger, Susan, and Shoshannah are of course correct in pointing out that Lubavitchers and other chasidim only move en masse into communities where real estate prices have already plummeted. From what I've read about Lakewood, that's exactly what happened there. But rather than acknowledge that orthodox Jews moving in actually revitalized the community in some respects, folks given to finding Jews dangerous set about scapegoating them for the failure of a school system which is, not coincidentally, beset by gangs. Again, chasidim don't send their kids to public school, so one can safely assume that the gang problem was not caused by Jews. Nor would it somehow solve Lakewood's problems if the orthodox did send their kids to the public schools, which are already well integrated, if the high school is any indication: it is neatly 1/3 black, 1/3 hispanic, and 1/3 white. (See: http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/nj/other/943) Naturally, the orths in Lakewood are unintersted in paying ever increasing taxes for services they don't use. It's legitimately controversial that they use their numbers to get elected to the school board, whereupon they vote to hold down increases in the schools budget. But one wonders, 1) how much should the schools budget be increasing anyway, if enrollment is down due to a big chunk of the citizenry sending their kids to private religious school, and 2) if the rest of the citizenry, which is at least 50% of the population of Lakewood (if not more--orths are thought to make up only 30%!) cannot manage to get itself together to vote for candidates who will raise taxes for the schools, then one must assume that, for some of Lakewood's citizens anyway, it's mighty convenient to have orths on the school board. After all, that way you get lower taxes and a Jew to blame for your failing schools. Unless SOMA sees a significant decline (or failures to improve) in our own school district, or unless some serious local economic or racial problem erupts, the spectre of white flight here is minimal. So long as no portion of our local real estate becomes blighted or undervalued, there is no chance of a significant or "dangerous" influx of chasidim. That is why the real-estate related work of the Community Coalition and concerned realtors is important to this community, and why Profeta and the M'wd TC were absolutely right to signal that EVERYONE is welcome here. Because, just as in America generally, when everyone can stake a claim to citizenship, no one group can dominate too forcefully. | ||
| ger Citizen Username: Tacit Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2005 |
All good points, reasonable and reassuring. As I stated, if the long-term effect increases inclusiveness, I heartily agree that it will be a completely positive addition to the community. This is one of those cases where I truly hope that any of the concerns that have been expressed are unfounded. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10240 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rampant PCism on the move. I have no idea if the Ultra Orthodox might find MW and SO attractive or not. However, not all of them are poor. A large group is moving into Garriston Beach in Brooklyn that is a thrieving working class/middle class community populated by large numbers of NYC cops and firemen, who are now leaving. The Ultra Orthodox are buying houses in the $500k to $600K range and then rebuilding them to suit their needs, often as tear downs. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2305 Registered: 3-2003 |
BobK, let's see something other than anecdata. Which orthodox sect? What consitutes "large" numbers? Exactly why do you think firefighters and cops there are "now leaving"? (What you've cited thus far about this neighborhood is somewhat misleading.) |
