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Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 569
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 10:27 am: | 
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Tonight, Oprah's Legends Ball will air on ABC at 8PM. I strongly urge everyone to view this historic event (which actually took place last year). You will see the outstanding strength, courage and beauty of Black women of all ages and the pride and joy that emanates from everyone in attendance. The poems and words spoken will fill your heart. I know what it did for me when I saw clips of the event on her show and magazine.
Also, if anyone is willing to tape this show for me, I will gladly pay your for the recording so I may duplicate it for my family and friends.
Please PL me if you can do this for me.
Be well,
Deidra |
Lucy
Supporter
Username: Lucy
Post Number: 3776
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:00 am: |
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24 has their final show of the season sorry Oprah! |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 571
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 9:12 pm: |
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Well, sorry Lucy! It was PHENOMENAL! |
red
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 5548
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 9:56 pm: |
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Oprah had that on her show months ago....up against 24? |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 6373
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 9:39 am: |
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paying for and duping TV shows is illegal. |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 894
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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I loved the magazine article version of this--lots of fabulous women, fabulous faces, fabulous dresses and hats. It was encouraging and inspiring. Uplifting. Signature Oprah. |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 572
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 11:57 am: |
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Duncan,  I'm not going on a corner to bootleg the show....geez!
..and thank you Breal. I'm glad I can get a positive response about a show that uplifted the beauty and strength of Black women without sarcastic comments. I broadcasting the time of this show because I like to bring a bit more "flava" to this board - which is sorely needed!
Go in peace. |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 573
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 11:59 am: |
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oh, and Red, the original broadcast was LAST MONDAY, but our wonderful President had a speech - which bumped her to this week. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 6374
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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Sorry Deidra, there is no "tongue firmly planted in cheek" emoticon. |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 1431
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:30 pm: |
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The gospel service was incredibly moving - must have made the Scientolgists in the crowd a little uncomfortable...
Why exactly was Tom carrying around what's her name? Did they think it was their wedding ceremony? Yuck.
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doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1441
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 2:59 pm: |
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I thought it was a lovely show - very emotional...loved how Maria Shriver said "I sure hope they don't come over here" when they were passing the microphone to sing gospel! I loved that the point was made that these women should be thanked not only by other AA women (and men) but by all women (& men), as we all live in a more open world of opportunity because they came before us. Shirley Caesar rocks. Chaka Kahn looked great.
Wish there were more opportunities for non-Kentucky Derby-attenidng & non-royal folks to wear great hats!
Katherine Dunham, one of the women honored, just died...http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-dunham23may23,1,240218 5.story?page=1&ctrack=1&cset=true&coll=la-headlines-pe-california
Thread drift:
Am remembering that I had a "Julia" doll - I think it was my first Barbie-type doll - probably should have kept up with that for Ebay purposes - but her leg broke off when I tried to make her go horseback riding. |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 574
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 3:01 pm: |
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Marie, I was particularly moved by the poem by wonderful poet, Pearl Cleage, "We Speak Your Name". It moved me beyond measure.
As for "TomKat", that was their first "official outing" as a couple. Personally, the outright phoney display of that couple is nauseating.
Also, for me, there were some noticable absences, like: Beyonce, Whitney , Vivica Fox, Queen Latifah and Jada Pinkett Smith - who I consider future legends in their own right. Lena Horne was also not present. |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 576
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 3:32 pm: |
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Oh, Doula, I had a "Julia" too! I LOOOOVED my doll and also wished I kept her in tact! Diahann Carroll is another one of my "Queens"! Wouldn't it be so cool to bring the show back to TVLand???!! Now that would ROCK!!!! |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1443
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
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FYI
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345490274/ref=pd_ts_b_79/002-8309125-5391265?s =books&v=glance&n=283155 |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 1432
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 5:30 pm: |
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Deidra,
I balled my eyes out through the whole thing... Extreme Home Makeover in Irvington on Sunday night and Oprah's Legends' Ball last night - I'm emotionally exhausted! |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 577
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 5:52 pm: |
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Wow! Doula...you are the best! Thanks so much for that link!!!! I would have never thought to look there! YAY!!! That's better than taping the show. I'm getting multiple copies for those I love....it reminds me of the copies I purchased of Maya Angelou's poem she wrote for Clinton's inauguration.
...and Marie, I hear you 100%! I am right there with you. I was crying my eyes out from: The thank you cards for EVERY worker....The new park and the dedication song...the girl breaking down in tears of joy...yeah, it was draining, but in a good way!
Tears for stuff like that are refreshing for me. |
crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 635
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:52 pm: |
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"I'm glad I can get a positive response about a show that uplifted the beauty and strength of Black women without sarcastic comments"
A friend is working on a show that highlights the beauty and strength of White women. It will be a great show and I hope receive a lot of positive response.
I'm sorry I missed the Irvington house makeover. I love that show. |
eliz
Supporter
Username: Eliz
Post Number: 1474
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 8:47 pm: |
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I cried through the whole thing but especially when BB Winans handed Shirley Caesar the microphone and from then on. It must have been amazing to be there with all that talent and the impromptu gospel singing.
(The shallower side of me loved all the party planning stuff with Colin Cowie as well Dahhhling!). |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 5136
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 8:52 pm: |
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crabby-
We Tivo EHM. Want a copy? PL me and I'll make you one... |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 578
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 9:15 pm: |
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Crabby, you're funny...really funny I'm sorry you missed the makeover show too because it was definitely one of their best.
JTA, what's EHM?
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us2inFL
Citizen
Username: Us2innj
Post Number: 1431
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 10:08 pm: |
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Is it true all the waiters and waitresses were white? If so, it surely would appear that this was an intentional request. I heard this on two radio programs, Glenn Beck and Howard Stern. |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 579
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 10:26 pm: |
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Appear to whom?....and I didn't notice. What's your point? |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 5138
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 11:56 pm: |
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Diedra-
EHM is Extreme Home Makeover.
In respond to all the 'wait staff being white,' Howard Stern and some of the others talking about this today on the radio believe Oprah is racist. |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 580
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 12:28 am: |
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Howard Stern?!!!!!! The same person who made a joke out of the singer Aaliyah's plane going down (with his made-up sound effects)???!!!
...and as far as Oprah being a racist, it just shows the fear of certain White men who can't handle her power! JTA, I know you don't co-sign to that thinking. Oprah's success is pissing those guys off, to the highest degree...and I LOVE IT! Let them talk...because that's all it is. They don't affect progress anyway. She honored those women with the level of extravangance that they ALL deserved! She gave them a three-day celebration and money was no object! GO ON OPRAH....AND KEEP ON KEEPIN' ON!
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us2inFL
Citizen
Username: Us2innj
Post Number: 1433
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 4:36 am: |
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D:
As I made clear by phrasing it as a question, I didn't see the show. Since no one here can confirm or refute this, I will only say a lot of eyebrows would be raised if a formal dinner was televised where white women were honored, and the wait staff consisted of only black people.
Howard Stern doesn't think Oprah is a racist. He believes and I agree that she is an egomaniac. The whole Hermes affair (store closing and she wants in then cries racial discrimination when denied) proved that.
This white man for one, doesn't feel threatened in the least by Oprah. Since I don't watch her gab-fest I barely know she exists. |
Kibbegirl
Citizen
Username: Kibbegirl
Post Number: 594
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 6:28 am: |
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I don't think Oprah is a racist. I do agree that she's an egomaniac. I like Oprah and support her most of the time. I didn't watch the "Legends" show because to me, it was just another dose of "all Oprah, all the time...look at the fabulous people I know". I don't think it's a good idea to give any celebrity such spotlight attention so frequently. Are ya listening TomKat? |
Carla
Citizen
Username: Elbowroom
Post Number: 79
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 7:16 am: |
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Oprah can do anything she wants to do. She has money. Lot's of it. Money = power. Hence she has lots of power. I like it when rich people spend lots of money. Spread it around. It's good for the economy. You go Oprah! You go girl!
If all the wait staff was white than it's a shame she didn't let some of her own people in on some of the action. I'm sure they got big tips. They probably made good money that night. |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 581
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
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Kibbegirl, I think you are a little off-base with your reason for not watching the show. She was showing the pride and appreciation she had for the Black women that contributed to our society - against segregation and prejudice. I am sorry that you didn't see and hear what Sidney Poitier, Diahann Carroll, Cicely Tyson and other "legends" had to say about this affair. You also missed the extraordinary reading of Pearl Cleage's poem - Angela Bassett turned it out! Yes, Oprah did it and she loves to be fabulous and I am proud that this BLACK WOMAN is doing it!
...and US2inFL, "eyebrows would be raised if a formal dinner was televised where white women were honored, and the wait staff consisted of only black people". Are you serious? Yes, there would be raised eyebrows because that would be a through back to slavery and times of the Civil Rights movement. Who created segregation???? Not Black people! Think about what Lena Horne, Dorothy Dandridge, Coretta Scott King, Ruby Dee, Lyontine Price, model Beverly Johnson and others had to go through so Oprah can be icon she is today.
Please do not make this event into anything other than a Black woman THANKING other Black women and it's long overdue - just like Halle winning the Oscar!...and I say BRAVO!!!
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BGS
Supporter
Username: Bgs
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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JTA- I PL'd you
Deidra-BRAVO for your comments!!! I agree with you 100%!!!!!!
Ciao!
BGS |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7803
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
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Look at the historical context of where the Legends came from. Then maybe you'll get it. And understand why it's nice to celebrate the inner strength and beauty of white women, but just not the same thing.
As for Howard Stern- it's pretty funny that a guy who has become a famous bazillionaire for his racist/sexist/homophobic "act" has the nerve to call anyone else names, be it "racist" or "egomaniac".
Although, I have to say that I don't get Oprah giving the nod to TC by including him. She, who is one of the loudest voices for counseling and mental health (especially for women), invites a guy who has the nerve to make judgements about women who seek treatment for PPD? |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 582
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 2:12 pm: |
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I hear you Greentree and I am not saying NOT to honor white women, but they have only overcome obstacles based on their GENDER/CLASS not RACE! Black women have always had a double whammy - being a woman AND being Black. Let's keep thing clear.
Let's take the actresses in Hollywood today. You have Julia Roberts and Jennifer Anniston - known as "America's Sweethearts", and then you have Halle Berry and Angela Bassett - known as....WHAT? HELLO? WHAT??? Halle and Angela have more beauty and depth in the sole of their feet than both of those "sweethearts" combined! That's all I'm saying. Give honor where honor is due.
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us2inFL
Citizen
Username: Us2innj
Post Number: 1434
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 2:39 pm: |
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Halle Berry won an Oscar? Wow where did that come from, certainly not her talent or her driving ability. She has the most overactive tear ducts worldwide, and the fastest gas pedal foot when it comes to bolting an accident.
Seriously, one over-rated Legend. I wouldn't be so fast to "speak her name." |
eliz
Supporter
Username: Eliz
Post Number: 1476
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 2:41 pm: |
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I think this was filmed before TC went all psycho on Brooke Shields and anti depressants and before he jumped the couch on Oprah's show. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7806
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 2:52 pm: |
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Halle wasn't one of the Legends; she's one of the younger generation invited to honor the Legends and live up to their examples.
RE: TC. I'd forgotten that his couch act was relatively recent. It seems like that crap has been in the news 4ever. Eliz's explanation makes sense. Although, given all the resources at Oprah's command, I'm surprised that she didn't have him edited out.
Deidre - when I said "you" you know I didn't mean you, right? |
Oldstone
Citizen
Username: Rogers4317
Post Number: 714
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:25 pm: |
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pet peeve/question: if halle berry's mother is white, why is she considered black? |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7807
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:57 pm: |
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That's more of a Soapbox question, but here goes......
In a nutshell, our socio-political climate forces people into a "box". We all have to be "something" and are judged by our looks and the color of our skin. Biracial kids with darker complexions (even dark-but-fair) are usually treated like people of color. Since we all have to "fit in" somewhere, it comes down to choosing a culture with which to identify, if not at times straddling both worlds.
I've watched my bi-racial nieces, nephews and in-laws deal and grow up with this. If race truly, truly didn't matter, then people might not be forced to fit in one place or another.
I kind of think of it as akin to the "gay, bisexual or straight" issue. We have these labels based on the people we are attracted to only because there are socio-political distinctions.
Take away those distinctions and there is no reason for the label. Once in awhile, people will ask me "what I am". I say "American." Drives them bonkers. No one accepts that answer.
Yes, you are American but what are you? What's your background?
My parents and grandparents are American.
They don't stop. Sometimes I'll finally say "I'm Jewish." Then there are no more questions, because I have identified my label. Try it sometimes. It's kind of amusing. |
Oldstone
Citizen
Username: Rogers4317
Post Number: 715
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 4:01 pm: |
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greenetree, i do the same thing. i'm american. are you a taurus? |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7810
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 4:02 pm: |
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yes
Why?
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Oldstone
Citizen
Username: Rogers4317
Post Number: 717
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 4:15 pm: |
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i am, too...i could tell. and not from what you just posted but in general, your posts are very taurean. |
Kibbegirl
Citizen
Username: Kibbegirl
Post Number: 600
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 7:04 pm: |
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I think America still operates on the "few drops of Negro blood rule". In white society, if you were deemed to have a certain amount or "ounces" of black blood, you were black. Case closed. Some mixed race children find it easier to identify their race by what they see in the mirror. Halle is mixed, but she certainly does not look white. It's a comfort level and all children of mixed race go through this "choice" with parents, friends, society etc. at some point. I remember an old Chris Rock joke where he was making fun of Rae Dawn Chong (Tommy Chong's daughter) and her penchant for only dating white men and that she felt more comfortable in white society. Chris' joke was "try marrying a Kennedy to see how Black you really are". |
Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1887
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 7:41 pm: |
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Greenetree -
Not to complicate further but..
Quote: Once in awhile, people will ask me "what I am". I say "American." Drives them bonkers. No one accepts that answer.
I was in Venezuela (South America) a Venezualan man asked me where I was from, I said "American" and he ripped into me in Spanish and English - plus he was a priest. Dios Mios.
Lesson I took away - I am not "American", I'm from Los Estados Unidos, the USA, whatever.
Next time I'll sew a Red Mapleleaf on my coat and pretend to be Canadian.
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doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1446
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:01 pm: |
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us2inFL et al,
I actually took note of the fact that during the early part of the show (like the photo shoot part?), all the waiters/helpers were handsome, young & white...part of me thought "why not - it makes a point" & then I found I was a bit relieved to see that later on there were wait staff of color (during the jewelry part?) - didn't notice otherwise - I don't think that was the point.
I agree that Oprah has quite an ego - so do lots of other folks & she does a lot of good, so sometimes I watch her & mostly like what she does. I have seen her honor many, many white women & all flavors of people...this special had a particular purpose & so I don't think the fact that it honored only AA women should arouse anger or anything negative...
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Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1888
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:19 pm: |
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Doula -
Quote:I agree that Oprah has quite an ego - so do lots of other folks & she does a lot of good, so sometimes I watch her & mostly like what she does. I have seen her honor many, many white women & all flavors of people..
I think Oprah has a healthy ego - while I usually support your posts, I have to question why so often women have "egos" while powerful men aren't similarly labeled - with the exception of Donald Trump.
I think Oprah is a true humanitarian (except for those diamonds, lose the slave-labor baubles please)
Oprah has taken many risks over the years and learned from her mistakes, she's not perfect, but she's never claimed she was.
She makes my top 5 for inspirational people. |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1448
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:28 pm: |
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Lydia,
Funny - I almost pointed to Donald Trump, but then decided that he didn't fit in with the rest of my post about doing good (maybe he gave lots of money re. Katrina situation, I have not heard though & I know that Oprah gave 10 million, so I didn't name him)- while I have a hard time seeing how you could get that from what I posted, I assure you it was not my intent...I agree with what you wrote (concerning Oprah) & am not bashing her by any means. And still I think she goes over the top sometimes...
Seriously - no need to make the argument about labels for women vs. men with me - you're preaching to the choir. |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5433
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:37 pm: |
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Lydia - I think you ran into the problem of context.
We all refer to ourselves, the folks between the Canadian and Mexican borders, as "Americans".
That identifier is less meaningful when used among the rest of the "Americanos", such as your excitable acquaintance in Venezuela. We are "Norteamericanos", which is a little more precise in the context of that conversation.
You don't have to try to pass as a Canadian/Canadien (unless, you want to). It's certainly a lot of words, but "I'm from the U.S." is still a useful description.
But when in Canada, tell them you're from New Jersey; I can't tell you how many people I've met there who have fond memories of traveling to the Jersey Shore as a kid. New Jersey has a certain cachet in Canada. |
Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1889
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:39 pm: |
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Doula - I'm with ya - Oprah goes over the top a bit, but there's no one going even a little over the top, so she's forgiven.
I love Oprah, she's not perfect, but she takes her lumps and owns up to them.
Nohero - I'm not sure what you're getting at?
Not to worry, I'm not really sewing flags from other countries on my luggage.
Sleep well, my fellow American. |
Deidra
Citizen
Username: Deidralynn
Post Number: 583
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:50 pm: |
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SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 3341
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:15 pm: |
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I saw Oprah interviewed about this show. She originally did not intend to "share" it, but rather had documentary type videographers to capture this event for her personal use. Once she saw it, she decided that it was almost selfish to keep it to herself. Unfortunately, I missed it - but I'm sure it was amazing. |
CFA
Citizen
Username: Cfa
Post Number: 1647
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 12:18 am: |
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Greenie....for the record, Howard Stern is definately not a racist NOR is he homophobic. In fact, he is a huge supporter of gay marriage. Do you listen to him on a regular basis? He definately is sexist as well as an egomaniac, but not a racist nor homophobic. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7832
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 9:47 am: |
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CFA- my issue with Stern is that he has this so-called "persona". He makes money saying derogatory things about people based on the color of their skin, sexual identity or gender, or, or, or. Whether he "believes" it or not. I've heard him in the interviews where he talks about it being part of his "radio persona". IMHO, perpetuating stereotypes, even if it's "just business" is just as bad, if not even worse, than "being" a bigot.
I've also read interviews about his stand on gay marriage. It seems to be based on his take on civil liberties and government interference, rather than support for the gay community. Based on what I've heard him say on his show about gay people and his analysis of the gay marriage issue, I can't quite say that he has proven himself not to be homophobic. He was a huge Dubya supporter until the FCC sanctioned him on broadcast radio.
As far as I can tell, Howard is a supporter of whatever's good for Howard & not much else.
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us2inFL
Citizen
Username: Us2innj
Post Number: 1439
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 11:22 am: |
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Howard has tons of fun at the expense of gay people, but he is totally in support of gay marriage, civil liberties, and things like Rosie and her stand on adoption. He was for Bush after 9-11 and at the beginning of the War in Iraq. He has always been critical of Bush's stance on stem cell research, Supreme Court Justices, etc.
He was critical of Michael Powell and the Congress for their sudden knee jerk reaction to Janet Jackson's nip. He spoke out about his being cited for "radio indecency" but that was it. He didn't find that as a cause suddenly. He has always been for freedom of speech. I remember his interview with Frank Zappa from 1985 and George Carlin earlier than that, on this subject.
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