| Author | Message | ||
     Pippi Supporter Username: Pippi Post Number: 2242 Registered: 8-2003  |
I love the hypocrisy: homosexuality is a sin, but all that goes along with being a mobster is ok. | ||
| jem Citizen Username: Jem Post Number: 1545 Registered: 5-2001 |
The scene with Vito's kids reading about their father in the paper was quite a touch. "You mean, Dad's not a spy?" Awww. Now that we've seen kids in several of the mob families move from childhood to adulthood, it's pretty obvious that very few make it through to be decent adults. I would guess that Meadow's one of the few who are even close. I think I recall one other mob kid who'd been shielded somehow, but didn't he end up with his kneecaps broken? When your father has absolutely no impulse control and your mother enables that behavior, it's hard to buck the tide of corruption. | ||
| breal Citizen Username: Breal Post Number: 895 Registered: 6-2002 |
The Vito murder wasn't for self-preservation (Adriana, etc.) or greed (take your pick) or out of a mixture of rage and impulse-control problems (take your pick some more). It was a planned, cold-blooded torture and execution. Cruelty for cruelty's sake. Well, Tony saw it as a career move on Phil's part. An easy opportunity to show he's got the cruelty chops to be the new boss. Does our friend Tony have the cruelty chops to go head to head with Phil? You hardly know what answer to hope for. | ||
| breal Citizen Username: Breal Post Number: 896 Registered: 6-2002 |
Oh, and Carm was looking at those statues in Paris and noting that they remain after their makers have passed. What does Carm have to show for her life? Her spec house is about to be torn down. One of her children is getting out of Dodge and the other is pathologically disaffected. We have the vanitas theme, we have ubi sunt, we have the wind blowing right through her. This is a very ambitious show. | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 445 Registered: 6-2004 |
"Speaking of cruelty, the episode swings pretty hard at the Catholic church's dogma about homosexuality. I liked that about it too." "I love the hypocrisy: homosexuality is a sin, but all that goes along with being a mobster is ok." Ok, here we go again with the Catholics. Phil's wife (a famous Catholic theologian) articulated something that her pastor told her about the Church's stance on homosexuality. Surely you know that Catholicism is not alone in its stance on homosexuality. Doesn't Orthodox Judaism hold that it is an "abomination"? Next, the hypocrisy comment. Where have you read that the Church condones mob related acts of violence and immorality? Did Phil's wife's pastor tell her that? I missed it. | ||
| Pippi Supporter Username: Pippi Post Number: 2245 Registered: 8-2003 |
"Where have you read that the Church condones mob related acts of violence and immorality? Did Phil's wife's pastor tell her that? I missed it." Joe - chill out. I am commenting on a TELEVISION show and it's characters, not Catholicism. I am commenting on the HYPOCRISY of the CHARACTERS, not the church. (that would be for an entirely different thread) The characters don't view their actions as sins, but Vito's homoesexuality is. This is my perception of the characters view of themselves. Do you think Phil thinks he's a sinner? No, but Vito is. Which justifies Phil's sin of murder, in his own eyes. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7785 Registered: 5-2001  |
One of the most fascinating thing about these guys is that they consider themselves very religious and manage to justify how they make their living with their faith. As do their wives; they actively participate in their church and know exactly what the circumstances are that allow them such comfortable lives. The hypocracy is amazing. On this show, they happen to be Catholic. When they do a show about the Jewish mob, we can point out that hypocracy, too. I don't think that anyone believes that all Catholics are anti-gay, all Italians are mobsters or all Muslims are terrorists for that matter. As Pippi said, it's a television show. You know that means that these are not real people, right? | ||
| jbirchby Citizen Username: Jbirchby Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2001 |
On a more lighthearted note, did anyone notice how many different coats Carmela wore in Paris? She had a different coat in EVERY scene. Who packs that much?!?! | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4488 Registered: 5-2001 |
I noticed and thought the same exact thing! | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7792 Registered: 5-2001 |
I thought the clothes were what she'd bought while she was there. Didn't they talk about the boutiques? | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4489 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ahhhhh, coat purchases didn't dawn on me. I did notice an orange Hermes shopping bag though! | ||
| jbirchby Citizen Username: Jbirchby Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hmmm. Yah, me either. I hope she bought some extra luggage to cart it all home! | ||
| doulamomma Citizen Username: Doulamomma Post Number: 1442 Registered: 3-2002 |
She mentioned a Kelly bag...maybe like this! http://cgi.ebay.com/100-Auth-Hermes-Kelly-bag-32-Ostrich-Gold-Gold-BIJOU_W0QQite mZ6884710623QQcategoryZ63852QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem | ||
| jbirchby Citizen Username: Jbirchby Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2001 |
Holy cr@p! Do people actually spend that much on a handbag?? I just realized this thread has inspired me to post more times in a row than I have in the past 5 years. Sad. | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 446 Registered: 6-2004 |
Sorry Pippi, since your post followed so close on the heals of Breal (who loved the fact that he thought David Chase was taking a poke at the Church) I though you were commenting on the Church and not the characters. You're right about the hyposcrisy in the characters. However, these characters know that their actions are sinful. They continue anyway. Do you think Phil thought he was on high moral ground in executing Vito? Not really. He did it because in that neanderthal culture having a gay in the family is an "infamnia", an embarrassment, an affront to pride and a loss of face. Tony doesn't go to Church except when required (funeral, wedding , baptism, First Communion). They are not pious and don't pretend to be. For the record the show does depict Jewish mobsters e.g. Heshie and the corrupt Hassids who run the motel. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1876 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tony sent her off with $15,000 in cash in a new Italian wallet, don't know the exchange rate, but that can buy some nice new coats - although if she was shopping at Hermes, she may have had to use the credit card - at least she's not buying $500 bottles of Cristal like some Sopranos. AJ is shaping up to be the next most interesting character - he tried to kill Uncle Junior, he's whining and can't stay in college, or keep a job, and he's got a sort of emptyness (according to Carmella) that seems to make him an ideal candidate for a life in the mob. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I'm wondering with all the bibical parallels and mother/father issues if Tony's real punishment will be his son sacrificed metaphorically to a mobster's life, or if AJ will be sacrificed literally - in some hare-brained attempt to gain street cred and make his father love him. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7794 Registered: 5-2001 |
I don't think that AJ is bright enough to make it in the life; maybe that's part of why Tony doesn't want him in. Not just because he wants him to stay clean. She must have used the credit card. Without conversion fees, that $15k is about 11,700 euros. Not a lot of designer clothes or bags for that . | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1233 Registered: 5-2003 |
I think that AJ is going to be whacked. I thought it was very ominous when Carmela told Rosalie that she "couldn't imagine what it must be like to lose a son." AJ is going to do something stupid that will get him killed, because he's essentially a stupid, amoral kid. And then Carmela will find out what it's like to lose a son. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1878 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lizzie - I agree about AJ's fate - also Carmella's condescending conversation with Adriana's mother. Then the dream in Paris with Adriana and the guard telling her that someone has to tell her she's dead. Carmella is beginning to get it - all her buried stuff is bubbling to the surface - what's life all about? Everyone dies, etc. | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4491 Registered: 5-2001 |
Oooh, you guys all really read into the symbolism. I enjoy it at face value, but it's interesting to connect the dots. FWIW, I am enjoying the season, esp. because there's a lot less violence! | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 2014 Registered: 11-2001  |
There does seem to be a lot of foreshadowing this season. That is why the theories about AJ getting whacked, somehow, make sense. The other possibility is Christopher. That one's been a long time coming. The Phil Leotardo hit on Vito was definitely payback for Tony's taking care of Tony Blundetto. Unfortunately, it does seem to be the impetus for an all-out war between the NY and NJ families. Phil is jockeying for power now that Johnny is down for the count, and Tony still has to prove his strength. Should be interesting. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1879 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ess - Who's Tony Blundetto? I somehow don't think Christopher is going to get his well-deserved comeuppance, he's Teflon. I liked the touch of Adriana finding her dog - it reminded me of how the poor mutt died in the first place. | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 2016 Registered: 11-2001 |
Tony Blundetto is (was) Tony Soprano's cousin Tony*. Remember that Tony whacked him instead of letting Phil do it in retaliation for Phil's brother's murder? * On Televisionwithoutpity.com, he is referred to as "Diet Tony". | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1882 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ess - The skinny out-of-prison cousin? Forgot about that one. That was where Tony hit him and the Feds came after him and he ran through the woods - yes? That was a nasty bit of business - Tony Soprano has a lot to answer for - wasn't that cousin welcoming Tony S. into the death dream/party when he was in a coma? | ||
| doulamomma Citizen Username: Doulamomma Post Number: 1444 Registered: 3-2002 |
jbirchby, Well, I certainly don't buy handbags that cost that much money! But some people do...I believe the Birkin is known as the Kelly bag b/c Grace Kelly had one/was gifted one? Lizziecat - good call on the Carmela/Ro/AJ situation! | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1234 Registered: 5-2003 |
Thank you. I try. | ||
| eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 1475 Registered: 5-2001 |
Birkin and Kelly bags are similar but not the same and the wallet was french (LV) not Italian. http://reviews.ebay.com/How-to-buy-an-AUTHENTIC-Hermes-Birkin-or-Kelly-Bag_W0QQu gidZ10000000000110367 | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 2019 Registered: 11-2001 |
Lydia - yes, that was Tony B. -- skinny, ex-con, and greeter to the "Finnerty" family reunion. However, I believe (and this was soooo long ago that who knows anymore) that Tony ran through the woods when the Feds came to Johnny Sack's house, and T happened to be there. When he whacked Tony B., he just drove off. I think. | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 2423 Registered: 10-2001  |
ess is right. Tony ran through the woods after meeting at Johnny Sack's house early one morning. After Tony killed Tony B. he drove to a payphone and called Phil and told him where he could find Tony B. Both occurred in the last episode of last season. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1885 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ess and Sports - Now I'm remembering it all - when Tony ran through the woods that was when Johnny Sacks was arrested and THAT whole mess started. Oh - another thing, I just thought of this - when Johnny Sacks pleaded guilty a few episodes - Carmella was surprised. I think that started her thinking that a lot of what she's been told might be BS. I can't wait for Sunday! | ||
| breal Citizen Username: Breal Post Number: 897 Registered: 6-2002 |
Joe R.--I am RC, at least until they kick me out. If you viewed my post as Catholic bashing, please know that was not my intent. I intended to bash my church's dogma that homosexuality is a sin. I think that "teaching" is immoral. It does not square with my understanding of what Christ was about. That branches of other religions also teach wrong things doesn't make it any better that my church teaches wrong things. I am not a theologian, you will point out. No I'm not. You don't have to be to know right from wrong. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7802 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lydia- unfortunately, it's June 4. I think that this week will be a "catch up". | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1578 Registered: 4-2004  |
Joe R.- I don't see it as Catholic bashing, to be honest. I think the whole commentary is the hypochrisy of the "mob women", like Carmella, Rosalie, Gabriella, etc., in evoking such strict adherence to their church's precepts when they know full well that their husbands are murderous criminals and they live poshly off the fruits of those crimes. Incidently, this two-week wait for the finale is BS- they just don't want to air the finale on a holiday weekend when viewing is typically down. An unnecessary delay that epitoizes this whole "Waiting for Godot" season. | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 451 Registered: 6-2004 |
Thanks for the clarification. We (I) shouldn't hijack the thread. I'm actually with you on this one. Maybe we'll get kicked out together. The Church's teaching (and the Orthodox Jewish teaching from what I have read)is not that the very state of being is sinful, but that the act is. I don't think the teaching is "immoral" as much as it is gravely mistaken. It's definitely derived from the traditional Old Testament view of the situation. Brett: As for the women, I'm not sure if they're hypocrites or suffering Saints. The church doesn't teach women to leave their husbands when they do bad things, but to pray for them and help them and to persevere in the family way (hence no divorce). We all aspire to be better than we are. Does that make us hypocrites? | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1579 Registered: 4-2004 |
Joe R.- They passively submit to the evil deeds of their husbands and profit from them. All that is needed for evil to exist is for good men (or women) to do nothing. There in lies the hypcrisy; Carmela has expressed how wrong it is for her to live such a life yet invokes the Church's stance against divorce as a catch-all as to why she doesn't leave. She is complicit in her husband's evil by any moral standard, not just the Catholic Church's. She rationalizes this complicity in the form of her own "good deeds" such as charity work, church obligations and raising a family (specifically Meadow- Ivy-League education and aspirations toward being a doctor or lawyer). The things that shock her back to the reality of her own complicity are Tony's brush with death and her suspicions about Adriana's demise. Not to mention she cuddled up to the parish priest a few years ago... | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1886 Registered: 5-2001 |
Joe R. - good point, are the women suffering Saints or hypocrites? Maybe a little of both - they put up with the mobster stuff as much as they turn a blind eye to the mistresses. When Carmella left Tony, her rage came out about his sexual infidelity and emotional distance - she's never confronted him about the organized crime. When Meadow was in HS she said to AJ, "How many garbagemen live like this?" Basically telling AJ to get a clue. Everyone knows, and they take their payoffs (big houses, big cars, etc) and turn a blind eye to where the money and "easy" lifestyle comes from. I think Carmella got a hint that her husband's cronies would turn on her when he was in the hospital - that whole deal with the envelope of money. So - prediction (thanks to this discussion) it's going to be about Carmella and AJ and the sins of the father in two weeks. | ||
| breal Citizen Username: Breal Post Number: 898 Registered: 6-2002 |
Joe R., straight or gay, the "act" can be right, or not, depending, is what I think. Sometimes it's a crime and the police should be called. But you're right that we should't highjack the thread or go on about, say, redemption, which they talk about practically every week at church. I'm through predicting what's going to happen in the next episode. I'm always wrong. I just hope it's not good night sweet prince for A.J. He's so young, and he's not in the life like Jackie Aprile's son was. | ||
| Vincent the Dog Citizen Username: Howardt Post Number: 1997 Registered: 11-2004  |
Breal, I think you're right, he's not in that life - yet. That's what I find so intersting about AJ's character - he could go any number of ways. Curious to see how he does on his 7AM construction job. | ||
| BGS Supporter Username: Bgs Post Number: 1042 Registered: 10-2003 |
I fell asleep! What happened???? | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 3912 Registered: 12-2004  |
To borrow a phrase: "BORING!" Absolutely nothing happened. My husband fell asleep too. I was barely awake. And there wasn't anything in the show that was worth staying awake for. With the possible exception of A.J. taking up with an Puerto Rican woman several years his senior, with a kid, and bringing her home to Christmas dinner! |
