| Author |
Message |
    
dOd
Citizen
Username: Dod
Post Number: 56
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 2, 2006 - 5:45 pm: | 
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Hi,
I want to redo my kitchen floor and get down to the original hardwood. It now sits under a vinyl sheet floor on top of a ply subfloor on top of a linoleum-like sheet floor. The linoleum floor I'm sure is backed wth asbestos.
What is the proper protocol for removing it?
I'm sure I could hire a few guys to carve it up and haul it away, but would rather err on the side of caution. Is this something that floor refinishers regulary deal with or do I need an asbestos company?
Thanks.
dOd |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 284
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 2, 2006 - 7:07 pm: |
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why are you sure it's backed with asbestos? |
dOd
Citizen
Username: Dod
Post Number: 57
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 2, 2006 - 8:59 pm: |
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Of a certain vintage, I'm assuming that they're all backed with asbestos.
Wrong assumption?
dOd |
Jennifer Pickett
Citizen
Username: Jpickett
Post Number: 190
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 10:55 am: |
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Our floor guys removed our vinyl + subfloor (asbestos content unknown) without question, but they did not have to scrape it up off the hardwood, which could release a lot more asbestos. I think the procedure is to dampen the material and remove it with minimum cracking or tearing, since asbestos is only dangerous if airborne. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 212
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 11:10 am: |
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If its asbestos, for your own safety, you should have a licensed contractor remove it. If you need references for these, ask. I have a few. |
noracoombs
Citizen
Username: Noracoombs
Post Number: 142
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 1:51 pm: |
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SOrising: I'm interested in references--we are currently getting estimates for the same type of job....
Thanks! |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4178
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 2:25 pm: |
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My first question is this:
Which is faster-better-cheaper, stripping down to the original hardwood that might be pine or removing the old floor down to the subfloor and putting in new oak flooring?
Asbestos aside, I would think it would be a huge effort to strip all of the old adhesive off of the original floor, assuming it is hardwood, sand that floor and then finishing it.
I would probably opt for a new floor and would follow these steps:
1. Buy an asbestos rated dust mask (about $20 at HD).
2. Tape off the kitchen area.
3. Place fan in a kitchen window on exhaust.
4. Using a circular saw, cut a grid (about 2 ft squares) down to the subfloor.
5. Remove the flooring
6. Screw the subfloor down to the joists (prevents creaking)
7. Hire somebody to putdown a hardwood floor. |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 659
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 4:23 pm: |
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Tjohn, anyone that can handle steps 1-6 should be able to put down their own hardwood floor, I would hope at least  |
dOd
Citizen
Username: Dod
Post Number: 58
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 4:30 pm: |
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tjohn,
I like pine. Especially old pine. As the rest of the first floor is Hart pine, I'm assuming that there is a layer under all this mess.
I was looking at a new linoleum floor, but the costs are pretty high as I have a large kitchen, eating nook and laundry room which are all connected and it seems I could lay in a new oak floor for much less than the linoleum.
One thing I'm trying to avoid is putting yet another layer of ply on this multi-level floor. (I'm betting that whoever would lay in a new wood floor would want to put in a new layer of ply.) So I could skin it to the level of the old linoleum, then new ply and finish surface.
The fan in the window is sufficient to evacuate the asbestos? What if I like my neighbours?
dOd |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11124
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 4:43 pm: |
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Asbestos tile should only be removed by a licensed abatement contractor. I know this rule is violated regularly. However, never, ever sand old adhesive off the floor as the adhesive also may contain asbestos. By sanding it you are putting asbestos fibers in the air and that is dangerous. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4181
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 4:45 pm: |
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Can you tell from the basement if there is an original pine floor in the kitchen. Sometimes, the old subflooring has enough gaps and holes that you can see.
You ought to be able to tear off the top layer and plywood without too much trouble. I would be surprised if the plywood was glued down.
Then, you might be able to tear off the original linoleum. With a bit of luck, the ahesive might be a bit dried out by now.
With regard to asbestos containing dust, I really don't believe that tearing up the floor will raise much dust. What dust there is you can vent outside where it will disperse and settle. You don't want it in your house where it will likely linger for a while.
Anyway, asbestos is not nerve gas and a minor occasional exposure most likely won't hurt you. The workers at Johns-Manville worked in clouds of the stuff day after day.
The orginal pine floor will have a lot of nail holes, I am guessing and might need to be sanded. I wouldn't think that the adhesive would be asbestos containing although most certainly, vinyl flooring products prior to sometimes in the 70's contained asbestos. |
dougw
Citizen
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 787
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 4:46 pm: |
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Tjohn - you want them to wear an asbestos rated dust mask and to vent the particles from the saw into the neighborhood?
Wow! |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4182
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 4:52 pm: |
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On second thought, perhaps the adhesive does contain asbestos.
Still, all this stuff seems a bit over the top.
In any case, this website seems halfway sensible.
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/asbestos/floortile/residental.htm
http://www.rfmnet.com/ftf.htm |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4183
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 4:55 pm: |
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Dougw,
I think the threat is vastly overrated.
$50 billion spent on residential asbestos abatement and how many lives were saved??? I know a lot of lawsuits were prevented, but lives saved???
If if weren't for industrial exposure, I doubt that asbestos would be the source of panic it now is. |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1474
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 4:58 pm: |
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We had asbestos tile removed from our basement by an abatement company. I don't know if your situation is anything like ours, but some of the mastic underneath the tile got absorbed into the concrete underneath it, so even though it was removed, it left marks on the floor. It was our basement, so it wasn't that big of a deal, but just mentioning it because you may face something similar if the mastic adhered to the wood in any way. Totally different material, and I know concrete can be absorbent, but just mentioning it... |
dougw
Citizen
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 788
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 5:03 pm: |
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Tjohn - I completly agree with you about the threat. It takes years of regular airborne exposure to develop a problem.
It was just your wording of getting a good mask for yourself and then venting that suprised me. I sould say get a good mask and don't vent. I would say get a good mask and don't vent. Why risk aggrivating you neighbors? |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4184
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 5:08 pm: |
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Dougw,
That's true. Or vent very slightly (e.g. kichen vent fan) to maintain a slight negative pressure in the room, but don't blow the dust all over the place. |
dOd
Citizen
Username: Dod
Post Number: 59
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 6:07 pm: |
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Oh man... now I'm wondering if the new linoleum slapped over everything wouldn't be best.
Is there a simple test for asbestos?
dOd |
fatboy
Citizen
Username: Fatboy
Post Number: 18
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 9:59 pm: |
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I can't believe that people on this thread are taking asbestos so lightly. We had asbestos tiles removed from our basement and also suspected that our kitchen floor tiles were made of asbestos. We took no chances especially with children in the home so we had the tiles tested. Turned out the kitchen tiles had no asbestos. Had we not tested them we would have paid a pretty penny to remove a supposedly hazardous condition that did not exist. We used Hillman Environment Group LLC in Union, NJ, telephone #908-688-7800. Website is www.hillmanngroup.com. |
James
Citizen
Username: Mcgregorj
Post Number: 103
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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Some truth about residential asbestos tile removal:
Vinyl asbestos tiles are considered non-friable. This means they can't be turned into a powder under hand pressure. You need to exert some greater force to make this happen. With basic precautions, they can be removed safely - and totally legally (in NJ, at least) - by a homeowner. Use an asbestos-rated respirator and keep the tiles wet. Wash your clothes and take a shower immediately after doing the work.
If you can pry the tiles up using either heat, dry ice, or solvents as an aid, you can go ahead and do it. It's a lot of hard work, but nothing too difficult. You want to make sure the tiles come up in single pieces. If the tiles are breaking into smaller bits, they become RACM (Regulated Asbestos Containing Material) and must be dealt with professionally.
I have a good amount of experience with this - with tiles that are in good shape, anyone can do it.
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dOd
Citizen
Username: Dod
Post Number: 60
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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Informative thread.
James, it seems that what I have is a sheet linoleum-like floor under the first layer of ply. I have the same thing in the entrance foyer where it is exposed.
What are the chances that a sheet will have an asbestos content?
Thanks.
dOd |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11131
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 12:25 pm: |
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James, thanks for the information, although I wonder how often fifty year old tiles will come up in one piece and you still have the adhesive to deal with. |
James
Citizen
Username: Mcgregorj
Post Number: 104
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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dOd: My experience is strictly limited to tiles and their mastic. Tiles are easy to judge - if you have 9" x 9" tiles - they absolutely contain asbestos. Other tiles may contain asbestos.
It's the same story with sheet linoleum. You won't know until you have it tested. I don't have any technique advice for the sheet stuff, but you should be able to find some on the web. It's less "discrete pieces" than tile, which means you'll have to break it (unless you can, and I would think this is unlikely, roll it up in a big piece).
You can find a lab to test a piece on the web or in the yellow pages. |
James
Citizen
Username: Mcgregorj
Post Number: 105
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
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BobK: I've just finished a large room of tiles that are of that vintage. If they look like they're in good shape, they're like to come up whole. I've had very minimal breakage - I would say that 90% of the tiles came up in one piece. It requires some basic precautions (good respirators, keeping tiles that may break damp), some elbow grease, and a whole lot of patience.
The mastic that was used to glue down the tiles cannot be chipped or sanded off - it probably includes asbestos as well. I'm just embarking on this. The options are either methylene chloride - nasty stuff - or a soy-based low-VOC solvent. I'm taking the latter route (using SoyGreen 5000) and things are looking good.
Using a soy-based solvent means negligible vapors, which allows me to stick with a low-cost asbestos-rated dust respirator, rather than having to add a more expensive organic vapor cartridge.
Disposal is via one of a number of NJ waste facilites that will accept these non-friable materials from homeowners. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11135
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:03 pm: |
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I tend to agree that minor exposure to asbestos over a very short period probably isn't going to kill you. However, I still have a lot of respect for the stuff.
Here are some other products that contained asbestos. Some you may have, some are just funny.
1. Up until the 1970s joint compound contained asbestos.
2. Some of you may remember those old kinda multicolored school lunch trays. They had asbestos. It made them strong enough to use as sleds on snowy days at recess.
3. Theaters used to advertise that their curtains were asbestos, all the better to prevent fire from spreading.
4. A friend was a sales trainee for Congoleum back in the early 1960s. Part of the sales talk he was tought was to show the "creamy white asbestos backing" on vinyl sheet goods while bending it back and forth.
5. Brake pads and drums contained asbestos up until fairly recently. Where do you think Raysbestos got its name?
5. I get burned a lot more with the barbacue since they took asbestos out of those barbacue mitts.
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James
Citizen
Username: Mcgregorj
Post Number: 106
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:32 pm: |
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I agree with that - you do need to have a healthy respect for it. No pun intended. |
dOd
Citizen
Username: Dod
Post Number: 61
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:04 pm: |
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Asbestos... is there anything it can't do?
dOd |
weekends
Citizen
Username: Weekends
Post Number: 101
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 9:32 am: |
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dOd -- You don't have to guess whether your old flooring contains asbestos or not. There are companies that specialize in testing for it; a web search will turn up several. Generally you send them a small sample in a plastic baggie, they analyze it, then send you the results. I've forgotten the name of the company I used, but remember that it was based in the L.A. area. It cost about $50 for them to test two samples. Had the results in less than a week. |
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