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Message |
    
melicious
Citizen
Username: Melicious
Post Number: 429
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 11:00 am: | 
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I hired someone recommended on the board.
I know I own an old house and stuff will ALWAYS go wrong.
How does a lay person know what is truly necessary?
So far, I am being told that:
1) the support beams under the bathroom were insufficient and now I need to beef them up (ka-ching!)
2) the wires to the basement from the bathroom all need to be rerun because they are a mess ($$$$)
3) there is a hidden GFI box (that was behind drywall) and they need to hook it up to something, it can't be hidden for inspection (minor ding)
I understand this all sounds important, but how do I know if it all really needs to be done? Can you ask the town about support beams and how many and how close they need to be?
I just don't have a lotta cash to burn, and don't wanna pay for stuff that would make it through inspection.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
m |
The Soulful Mr T
Citizen
Username: Howardt
Post Number: 1867
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 11:23 am: |
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Yes, if you go down to Maplewood Town Hall and ask for Bob Mittermeier in the Building Dept (2nd floor as I recall) he'll help you with codes and requirements. |
Bklyngirl
Citizen
Username: Bklyngirl
Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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melicious -
what precipitated your looking into those three (3) things that supposedly need fixing?
bklyngirl |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 1199
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 12:42 pm: |
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Did you have the house inspected before you bought it? Do you still have the inspector's report? Did he mention those 3 things? Can you call him and ask him? |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11419
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 12:44 pm: |
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Melicious, sounds like you are having your bathroom gutted and replaced.
It isn't uncommon for the joists under the floor, especially those by the tub, to be rotten after 80 to 100 years and need replacement. Nor is it uncommon for the wiring to need replacing, especially if there are sections of knob and tube. The GFI buryed in the wall is a new one to me, however.
Assuming my guess on the work you are having done is correct, where I fault the contractor is in not bringing these possibilities up with you when he quoted the job. I guess in a world where the guy who keeps saying "no problem" gets the work, being up front about potential issues isn't going to get you to many jobs. Just an opinion here. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7562
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 12:47 pm: |
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Bob - I agree. "No problems" make me nervous, too. When we gutted our kitchen last year, we found an outlet box that had been rocked over. The wires were live and not capped. Stranger things have happened. |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 503
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 1:02 pm: |
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we had to beef up a support beam and do some re-wiring too. Contractor + architect + inspector agreed, so it seemed legit. If you can get another opinion (with no conflict of interest) you'll feel better. But it still not unlikely to have to accept the ka-ching ka-ching ka-ching.
I agree with Bob K.........It's not a suprising finding, but the contractor should be explicit in advance that these things are very possible/probable and he should tell you what they might cost.
Everyone told us to add at least 10% to our projected costs when we gutted kitchen and powder room. And they were quite right. |
melicious
Citizen
Username: Melicious
Post Number: 431
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 1:21 pm: |
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thanks so much - (particularly Bob K and MJH)
yes, i gutted my bathroom and those things would not have been visible to an inspector.
it's funny, because the beams weren't rotted, they just were gone...spooky.
i'll accept that i don't want to fall into the kitchen while on the toilet
i left the 10%, but just wish i knew more...oh well,
m |
george H
Citizen
Username: Georgieboy
Post Number: 183
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 6:08 pm: |
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There is also the issue of faith and trust in your contractor,and if you shopped around too much,tried to get the most bang for your buck,or didnt go with someone you truly felt comfortable with,these so called extras can leave a person wondering.I generally tell folks to allow between 10 and 20% for situations that could not be reasonably anticipated.Remember,bathrms.and kitchens have a lifespan of what?,40,50yrs.or more.Definitly not a place to cut corners or take any half measures.Remember,"half measures availed us nothing". |
Jgberkeley
Citizen
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 4558
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 10:15 pm: |
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Huh,
I read this and almost passed on posting.
I do this kind of work, and while there is a lot of room for a contractor to bluff stuff to you, I see a lot of REAL problems every week.
I can walk into a nice looking bathroom that just needs to be updated, yet when we pull it apart we find really bad stuff. Hidden wiring that is smoking, pipes glued together with caulking. Tape holding joists together.
I just never know how to present this to a customer as there was no way I could know before I pulled it apart.
This is some of the reason I do not take on many jobs that I think may have hidden problems.
Even that said.
I am currently doing a commerical job. I have pages of plans from an archtecit who explored and documented the site. The plans were approved by the Township.
I start the job and you would not believe the code violations I have uncovered that I now have to fix and bring to code. Plumbing, electrical and even framing. Bob M. has been to the site to look at some of them, and I have given him cut out samples of the crap I have found.
Some of the wiring stuff is scary. A 60 Amp breaker feeding a 40 amp rated wire that is cross connected to a 15 amp outlet. Talk about a fire, this is one way to start one.
I guess what I am saying is, the odds are you have the problems. When I find them I stop and have the home owner look at them, photograph them and tell me what they want to do.
These old houses have a lot of ghosts in them.
Later,
George |
Peter
Supporter
Username: Peter
Post Number: 243
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 1:33 am: |
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Here's how to tell when you're being ripped off:
You live in New Jersey. You have a check book. You hire all sorts of service providers -- contractors, garbage haulers, cleaning ladies. You give them money. They give you (some) service. You are being ripped off. |
Jersey Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 727
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 2:18 am: |
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I have NEVER used a contractor and not felt like I was getting "ripped off."
It's part of the experience. The only problem is you can't use the same one again.
J.B. |
Sherri De Rose
Citizen
Username: Honeydo
Post Number: 167
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 8:04 am: |
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We don't rip people off!! |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7576
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 8:21 am: |
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How do you tell? Simple.
You have a good experience and a bad experience. Once you have the two to compare, you will know when you have been ripped off. I know this from experience.
When we had to pay to redo work from our fake ex-contractor, we were indeed "ripped off". The guy who redid the work and charged us less than his going rate because he knew our renovation budget was gone could hardly be characterized as "ripping us off".
Peter, I'm trying to figure out your post and have settled on a more philosophical explanation. All the things you list are technically things one could do oneself, were one so motivated and inclined. In that sense, true, it is a waste of money to pay someone else for these things. A "rip-off" if you will.
JB, whenever I hand that check over, I always think "I can't believe I paid someone else to do this. I could have done this."
But, I don't do it myself. Most of us don't or there wouldn't be so many people around who do it for us. How many couples end up in therapy because one half says "we don't need a plumber/landscaper/contractor to do that. I'll do it on the weekend." But the weekend never comes....
We have a contractor coming over today to do a bunch of things that we "could" do. It's him or divorce. 
There are a lot of people out there who get demonized because of a few bad apples in their profession. On the whole, I haven't met many who weren't good, honest and looking to save me money by not doing unneccesary work. |
Travis
Citizen
Username: Travis
Post Number: 416
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 8:28 am: |
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I'm not a contractor, but I find this thread a bit offensive.
When we had our bathroom gutted, we found several disasters.
Joists and beams notched dangerously by plumbers, to the point that some had to be replaced.
Old electrical boxes, dangerously overloaded and hidden behind DW.
Stud framing on an exterior (i.e. load-bearing) wall just cut out of the way. Not notched, I mean removed.
The funny thing is, some of the people working on the bathroom laughed at my concern at these disasters. If it wasn't for the fact that I know a retired structural engineer, who blew his top when I told him about some of the framing hacks, we probably would have happily had tiles, CI tub, SLC etc laid on top of this.
Maybe it would have held.
Melicious, count yourself lucky that you have a contractor who is (a) competent enough to recognize the problems and (b) honest enough to bring it up with you.
Welcome to old house remuddling.
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melicious
Citizen
Username: Melicious
Post Number: 432
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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Thanks so much for all the advice.
I had no idea how common all this stuff was.
I've heard various stories, but go figure!
Thanks!
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Longheadself
Citizen
Username: Longheadself
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 9:18 pm: |
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According to American Institute of Architects documents "concealed conditions" are legitimate "change orders." There is no way to tell if floor joists are ok or not prior to demo. To automatically include replacing floor joists would be bidding a job based on worst case scenario, which most people would find too expensive. The same holds true for electrical. To be sure, the possibility of a change order should have been discussed with you. The suggestion to speak with Bob Mittermeier is a good idea. Also, change orders should ideally be signed off on before commencement of work upon them. If a contractor were to do any of the mentioned items without provision for them in his budget, though, he would lose money. Sounds like more clarity in the paperwork department could have helped. |
melicious
Citizen
Username: Melicious
Post Number: 433
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 7:31 pm: |
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I totally understand now.
What would be REALLY cool would be this:
a contractor bids based on the worst case scenario and then
gives you a REBATE at the end of the job, if things were anything
less than a nightmare. I KNOW!!! They are trying to get the job, but that would be so cool.
Getting money back, even if I already gave THEM money to do the job, would lessen the pain. Even if it were, like, a dollar.
Just a thought. |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 382
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 9:29 pm: |
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Problem is that they only like to estimate what they know. I guess a worst case scenario could be even worse than yours...
Would be nice to get money back, tho. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7591
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 10:03 am: |
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I am working with a new contractor. He charges by the hour, which I've always been hesitant about in the past. But, it's a list of small projects, so in this case, may be the best way. I'm not sure that I would want to do a major renovation by the hour.
But, this is a test run of a bathroom gut (hopefully by the end of the year).
Theoretically, a by-the-hour job should be the fairest way. If the job finishes faster than expected, you pay less. If longer, the contractor gets paid for their fair share of work. Of course, if there is time padding going on, the customer gets screwed.
Anyway, the contractor's assistant spent Sat & Sunday at our house. I was able to keep an eye on things. He wasn't the fastest guy in the world, but I don't think that he was goofing off. He is meticulous and seems to be a perfectionist. We had leaking issues around our palladium doors, which involved a lot of scraping, sanding, caulking, etc. (no, not in that order). When he was finished cleaning up, there wasn't a speck of dust anywhere in my house. I don't think that the hourly pricing is any more expensive in this case. So far, I'm pretty pleased. When all the jobs are done, I'll have to guestimate how the hourly thing worked out compared to lump pricing. |
themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 2872
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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It seems that craftsmanship and professional responsibility dictate that problems that are uncovered be fixed properly. The wiring in these houses is absurd, and despite the myth or old-school construction, a lot of the framing is crappy, too. |
davidbuckley
Citizen
Username: Davidbuckley
Post Number: 598
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 6:40 pm: |
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Greeny: (Forgive the familiarity...;-D)
Would you tell us who you're using and/or identify-and-review when done?
Thanks and contract well, all.
David |
The Soulful Mr T
Citizen
Username: Howardt
Post Number: 1884
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 6:57 pm: |
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We've used the same contractor since we moved to Mapes a few years ago and we NEVER, EVER! felt like we were being ripped off. We've referred him to alot of people and he's working all over Mapes now. (I've posted his deets here a few times - PL for contact info.)
He's a great guy, does great work, is open and frank about problems and charges very reasonable rates. He and his crew did our basement, our top floor, our deck, and a bunch of other smaller projects. When he finished our basement, we were so thrilled, we bought him a case of French (or was it Italian?) wine and tipped his guys very generously.
I must admit, people are surprised when we say we love our contractor. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7603
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 9:34 pm: |
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David - I sure will, but I got his name from one of your very recent posts.
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davidbuckley
Citizen
Username: Davidbuckley
Post Number: 600
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 11:31 pm: |
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Greeny:
Thought that might be the case; keep us posted.
What are Palladium doors?
Be well, all.
David
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