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Walt21012
Citizen
Username: Walt21012
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 2:17 pm: | 
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After being last in line and taking one too many cool showers, it's time to think about replacing the water heater.
Has anyone looked into the tankless water heaters, which essentially heat the water immediately on demand, with no storage of hot water?
I'd appreciate any information on contractors/sources and costs. Thanks! |
catmanjac
Citizen
Username: Catmanjac
Post Number: 246
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 2:27 pm: |
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I live in an area where there is no natural gas, so people heat by oil, electric, or propane. My electric water heater is aging so I have looked into propane tankless models.
The information I reviewed stated that electric tankless are the most expensive to operate. Natural gas and propane are much better alternatives. They last a good twenty years, so their initial price is worth it, and better home models have rebates of a few hundred dollars for energy efficiency, making them no more expensive than conventional tank heaters.
Two considerations are: How much will it cost to install a natural gas or propane unit-- the venting, gas lines, etc. If you already have a natural gas water heater, most of this is already in place. The second consideration: While these units are much more energy efficient, propane, for example, has doubled in price in the last 2 1/2 years, making it more expensive than a tank electric model. Natural gas has also skyrocketed, but not as much, so it still may be worth it.
Try contacting your gas utility company. Some will sell and install the unit at a reasonable price. Check out dealers (usually plumbing/heating contractors) in the phone book.
I'm curious to hear how you make out and what you decide. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3376
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 4:00 pm: |
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I've looked into tankless water heaters, and will be buying one in the next few months. I can confirm that propane and natural gas are cheaper to operate than electric. There is little doubt that natural gas prices will continue to rise, and probably at a pace faster than electricity, but gas may still be your best option because a tankless electric water heater powerful enough to let you take a hot shower while running the washing machine will probably require 20 kilowatts or more and you may not have sufficient electrical service.
In any case, there are some things I really like about tankless water heaters. The foremost of these is that you NEVER, EVER run out of hot water. As long as you are not pulling more than the unit is rated for, you could take a shower for a week if you felt like it. Also, you save energy by not keeping a tank of water hot all day. The "payoff" time is probably 10 years or more, but most units will apparently last longer than that (I don't know if that's true with our ultra-hard water). Also, you will open up floor space in your basement by going tankless -- the units just hang unobtrusively on a wall. And they are so efficient that you will qualify for a tax rebate -- I think it's $300 -- which takes a big bite out of the purchase price.
It seems that the most highly regarded brand of natural gas tankless water heaters is Takagi. For electric, one leading brand is SETS which I expect to go with because it has a LIFETIME warranty. Other good brands that create both types are Stiebel Eltron, Eemax, and Powerstar. |
Klg
Citizen
Username: Klg
Post Number: 52
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 8:11 pm: |
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I really wanted a tankless heater but my HVAC guy, who I like, refused to install the tankless. He claimed that they did not heat a sufficient quantity of water to allow for multiple demands. I think he was being a Luddite about it all but I relented and went the traditional route. I am curious to know whether other plumbers are as resistant. |
davidbuckley
Citizen
Username: Davidbuckley
Post Number: 640
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 8:45 pm: |
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I installed an indirect fired water heater. It is heated by a boiler in my house as opposed to heated by it's own gas source. It is a tank within a tank, VERY efficient and has no coil to corrode which is a big cause of standard water heater death, basically a closed system (whatever that means!).
It was expensive but we NEVER run out of hot water; it is supposed to be very efficient and whenever anyone who works on pipes (PSEG, oil provider) sees it they ooh and aah. It has a very long projected life though I don't know warranty.
Certainly consider these if you plan to be in your house a long time. PL me if you want to know more.
Shower well, all.
David |
DRJ
Citizen
Username: Alaska
Post Number: 79
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 9:57 am: |
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Search the archives. This subject has been discussed at length. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14571
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 1:50 pm: |
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To me, never running out of hot water is a bug, not a feature. If we didn't run out of hot water, my daughter would never get out of the shower. I think she consumes more hot water than the other three in the family, combined.
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catmanjac
Citizen
Username: Catmanjac
Post Number: 249
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 4:31 pm: |
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David Buckley: I'm pretty sure the system you describe runs off of the heating system, thereby requiring the boiler to run during the summer and warm weather. It won't run enough to make the radiators hot, but nonetheless the whole boiler has to run in order to make hot water. The house I grew up in had a system like this with the original inefficient boiler that was converted from coal to oil in the 1940's. My father eventually did away with the water-heating system, and put in a gas tank water heater which used much less gas than the oil necessary to run the boiler. And eventually a newer gas boiler was put in for energy efficiency, as the original boiler would have lasted forever but burned oil like crazy.
And yes, girls take longer showers and use lotsa water... they have more nooks and crannies to attend to. |
Dennis J O'Neill
Citizen
Username: Plungy
Post Number: 36
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 5:33 pm: |
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Catman, the system David mentioned is MUCH improved over the old tankless dinosaur you are describing. The Weil McLain unit we usually install is a highly insulated Stainless steel storage tank with a limited LIFETIME leakproof warrantee. It's standby losses are neglegable at less than 1/2 a degree per hour so the boiler rarely has to fire. In addition they recover 50% faster than most residential direct fired water heaters.We install them like crazy for our customers with hot water heat and people LOVE 'em!
There is a picture of one of our installations with a Weil Mclain Gold boiler and a 40 gallon indirect water heater on our website www.rightoneplumbing.com. Or click the dropdown menu for sponsers on this site. This unit is on Berkley st. in Millburn and virtually every boiler and water heater mfgr. has a version of this.
They have no flue of thier own of course so they are perfect with a direct vent boiler installation.
My Kelly is back home after graduating last week and I forget what the inside of my bathroom looks like. |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 537
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 8:16 pm: |
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I should also mention that the argument against this type of system (Mr. Buckley's boiler-driven indirect water heater) being that the boiler must run in summer is not at all valid.
Nearly any semi-modern boiler burns fuel at a significantly higher efficiency than a free-standing gas-fired water heater. Using the boiler translates directly to fuel savings for domestic hot water.
The more efficient the boiler the less fuel usage. Even in summer.
Stainless steel tanks? I've never seen one leak, ever.
Wouldn't it be nice to stop wondering when your old water heater is going to burst (it's inevitable) and possibly flood your basement?
Master Pvmber |
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