| Author | Message | ||
     DReese Citizen Username: Dreese Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2006 |
I am planning on updating or replacing the old windows in my house I just purchased and need to find a reliable window specialist. The majority of the current windows are I believe the original windows of the 1941 house and are made of wood. All the balances are either missing or does not work so the windows don't stay up at all. Secondly, some of them when closed still leave a significant gap which will drain our energy bills. I've had a contractor look at them and they suggested totally replacing them and noted it would not be worth it to restore them since they're not energy efficient. Windows are all new to me and I know they will be a huge cost but nevertheless it's a priority on our list before doing anything else. Can anyone recommend a local window specialist to give us estimates and recommendations on what type of windows and also installation of them as well? We would like to keep the wood look but know these are extremely costly so maybe a composite type but still energy efficient (but not cheap looking either). Thanks. | ||
| DReese Citizen Username: Dreese Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2006 |
Also, I've heard Lincoln windows and Jeld-wen are decent manufacturers since we probably won't be able to afford the Marvin's. | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 363 Registered: 11-2003 |
Is it any wonder that a contractor recommended replacing all of your windows? Are you sure they can't be rehabbed? | ||
| DReese Citizen Username: Dreese Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2006 |
actually contractor is sort of a friend and can't do the job for me due to numerous other projects on his plate plus not willing to come out to new jersey. said it would cost a pretty penny to try and restore them too. | ||
| Darren Say Grrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Darrensager Post Number: 433 Registered: 11-2001 |
Call Arnie Roeland at Roeland Home Improvers. He has great Quantum 2 replacement windows that are SUPER energy efficient. If you want to high end, check out Eagle Windows. Much better than Marvins in my opinion. Arnie's number is 973-586-7900. | ||
| Sherri De Rose Citizen Username: Honeydo Post Number: 279 Registered: 11-2005 |
I could write a book about our window saga. Living on a corner with 20 windows in my home, we wanted more energy effecient/quiet windows. The first go round, Rich took each window out of the frame, stripped off the paint, removed the weights and ropes and put in new channels on the sides where the windows fit into. Each window took eight hours. This was not a bad fix. However, we still had street noise. Then I investigated replacement windows. Not having the money for the best and not wanting the worst and wanting wood insides, we ended up with True Thermal. Five years later and having them replace all the windows (tops and/or bottoms) several times and refunding money to me, they finally gave me back all my money and sign a release that I would not bother them anymore. I then purchased Pella Architect series. I still have drafts!! and each winter I go around with my "moretite" to stop up the drafts. If I can help you in your window search, I have already done the legwork and would be pleased to give you the benefit of my education. | ||
| Star Princess Citizen Username: Star_princess Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2006 |
Do Not rip out your original wood windows whatever you do!!!! You have to remember that the vast majority of contractors make their money installing PRODUCTS so of course they are going to recommend new windows. Why would anyone in their right mind rip out windows specifically made for your house (and have lasted close to 70 years in your case) and try and cram plastic (or any other material) windows in their place (which have a 20 year at most life span). Maintaining wood windows is a lost art but there are alot of workshops that teach you how to do it! Its actually very easy to do. Do you have storm windows? Thats how you make wood windows more energy efficient. Spencerworks.com makes a great wood storm window that also has a third track for a screen. So once its hung up you never have to remove them with the changing seasons. | ||
| DReese Citizen Username: Dreese Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2006 |
i'm trying to find a specialist to see what's the best way to salvage what i have if i can but unfortunately, the windows have been also painted over and over so not only does it not stay up, it needs to be stripped down to the bear bones and then repainted again. plus they're not energy efficient so to try to restore them would cost just as much or close to putting in new windows. maybe i won't need to take out the outside portion or casing and just need the interior but i still need to find a reputable contractor or window specialist and like you said don't want to be ripped off. please keep the comments coming. | ||
| mjc Citizen Username: Mjc Post Number: 1191 Registered: 10-2004 |
If Search is working, there are lots of threads about windows, including somewhere directions for DIY rehab of old windows, plus contractor recommendations etc. Try limiting your search to window (or windows), in thread titles, in home fix it, it was working pretty well this afternoon. I think it may have been gj1 who put up the DIY outline, some time in the last year or so. | ||
| DReese Citizen Username: Dreese Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2006 |
did a search and all the forums are more about this person bashing one another about ugly windows and etc and still doesn't helpe me. i wish i had the time and energy to revive my 20-25 windows myself but with a 2 yr old and lead paint to deal with restoring the windows myself, i need help in finding someone. so far, i only have one referral for arnie which i thank you for and will get in touch with them. i guess that's a start. thanks! | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 750 Registered: 10-2005 |
DReese....start by following Star P's advice, and try and maintain the existing windows, and storms. Spend approximately $500 per window to do so, and have exhorbinant Heat bills this winter. Notice how ugly the 'original' windows look with those awful storms plastered on them, hiding the features of your home. Lose all of your hair dealing with contractors throughout the summer-long rehab process. Wonder if the 10,000 spent attempting to 'rehab' was worth it. Notice your neighbors gorgeous Wood Replacement windows that not only glide up and down with one hand, but also don't require storms because of the amazing efficiency of modern technology. Take a peek at how lovely they look from the inside, as they elected to have an all-wood stained finish, that makes the rooms look stunning. Wonder to yourself if this is why their Energy bill is 1/2 of yours each month. Change your mind, and get bids that will range from $600 per to $1200 per window (installed) and have the 70 year old, outdated, over used, innefficient and UGLY windows replaced in about 4 days tops. Live happily ever after. Wonder to yourself if Star Princess is still using the homes original Refridgerator, Toilets and Bath, and if somehow Star P is still able to get Coal delivered for her coal fired furnace. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 751 Registered: 10-2005 |
We went through the same process you did, and having our windows Replaced with Wood Pella's made a dramatic difference on both the Curb appeal, and the interior look of the house. Walk up and down your block, and you will see what you prefer. 1/3 of the homes have Wood Replacements, 1/3 have original windows with Aluminum storms, and 1/3 have new Vinyl replacement windows (which can be installed for $300 all-in per window). My advice, is not to ask the MOL message board what's best, as you will hear loud arguments supporting all three directions. My wife and I ended up making our decision by walking around and deciding which look we liked best. Good luck! | ||
| Darren Say Grrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Darrensager Post Number: 435 Registered: 11-2001 |
If you go with a low priced vinyl replacement its not going to look appealing on your home. Pella is not the window it used to be. Its now a Home Depot window. I chose Pella for my garage. That's all I think I need to say about that. Go with a good brand replacement and most people on this board would have a hard time telling it actually is a replacement window. I'm afraid to tell Smarty that making a blanket statement on new vinyl replacements is the wrong thing to do. I posted before that I visit both the International Homebuilders Show and The Remodeling Show each year. There are a number of manufacturers who've listened to statements made by people like Smarty and redesigned their replacement windows to have curb appeal, or so you have no clue you're looking at a replacement. I've seen them. I've had them put into my home. I would ask any contractor, especially those who sell a specific brand or product, to show you actual examples of their work on an existing homes so you can make your decisions based upon first hand knowledge and not opinionated hearsay or those highly motivated individuals who work this message board to earn a living. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11828 Registered: 5-2001 |
Actually Pella is hooked up with Lowes. Anderson is hooked up with Home Despot. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 753 Registered: 10-2005 |
Darren, where's the normal plug for the Vinyl Q's you bought? | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 364 Registered: 11-2003 |
It'll come just before the plug for the gutter covers he sells. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 8050 Registered: 5-2001  |
We bought Andersens from Jaeger for our kitchen, den & bath remodel. The guys at Jaeger were very helpful and there is a wide range to choose from. You can go all vinyl, wood inside/vinyl out or all wood. Obviously, there are huge differences in expense. I was under the impression that the windows made for HD/Lowes were a different quality than those made for the specialty places by the wsame manufacturer. About 15 years ago, friends had all the original 1927 windows rehabed, including the energy-saving glass. I think that, at the time, it was cheaper than new replacement all-wood. La Princess has a point if you are shopping in a third world country where there is only one type of window for sale. You can probably find someone to give you a choice between at least two windows.  | ||
| Politicalmon Citizen Username: Politicalmon Post Number: 171 Registered: 9-2005  |
We had 25+ windows replaced in our house 5 years ago. We went with Marvins which were recommended by an Industry specialist who had no vested interest in the decision. The cost was expensive and we cut energy cost by 1/3 the one bit of information I would relay regardless of which manufacturer you go with is that replacement windows (instead of full window replacement) will lower the cost of the window and be in some cases be more efficient then full window replacement. I would have thought the opposite but this appeared to be the case with our installion. | ||
| Darren Say Grrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Darrensager Post Number: 436 Registered: 11-2001 |
Smarty, the plug for the Quantum 2 is up above.  What about my plugs for Eagle windows? I purchased the Pellas for my garage several years ago. So if they're not selling them at the Cheapo anymore, so be it. As for my gutter filtration product, you don't see me posting something on it everytime someone says something about cleaning their gutters. If I did, well then I'd be working these boards to bring in the green.  Maybe I should manufacture windows as I talk about them on this board 100 to 1 compared to what I really do.  | ||
| george H Citizen Username: Georgieboy Post Number: 224 Registered: 8-2005 |
I would think that anyone considering new windows would take the time and do some homework on "replacement" vs. total replacement of the window.The latter is more disruptive as your talking about removing the entire window including casings and sill on the interior,and brick mold/trim on the exterior which normally includes some siding,which is then cut back in after the new unit is trimmed out.If your house is sided with anything other than clapboard or shakes,it could be problematic.Sizing can also be an issue although Andersen's sizings are pretty true to older units,Integrity by Marvin,totally skips one popular width,which means you have to either increase the opening or decrease it.With sash weights,increasing is not that big an issue but does come into play with units that are close to corners or other immovable objects.Which brings to mind the dealing with of cavities that contain the old sash weights should you decide to go with replacement units.These spaces are typically uninsulated as not to impede the movement of the weights.Most guys cut the rope or chain and let the weight drop down.Short of spraying in non-expanding foam,as to not bow in and thus bind the replacement sashes,theres no good way to insulate short of removing the trim,which is the first step to a total replacement.One more thought is the exterior wood stop that the storms are fastened to.These are usually covered with caulk and must be either scraped and painted or covered with aluminum coil. | ||
| Walt21012 Citizen Username: Walt21012 Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2006 |
We purchased replacement windows directly through Pella, rather than through Lowes. Lowes sells a vinyl replacement window with a Pella name, and a wood Pella window. However, the wood windows we purchased direct from Pella are of a highly quality than the Lowes windows, with a 6-pane divided lite (not the fake divider between the panes) that look exactly like the original windows without the need for storms or exterior painting. Installation occurred on schedule, was flawless (22 windows installed in one day) and neat. We couldn't be happier with the process. | ||
| DReese Citizen Username: Dreese Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2006 |
hi everyone, thanks for all the input. it's alot of info and i've been doing alot of research but still need to get a specialist to come see the windows which i'm planning on next week. i will also try to salvage what i can but i don't quite have the budget to spend over $500/window for over 20 windows but we'll see what we can come up with. WALT21012... who did you use to install the pella wood windows? i want to get as many window people to check out the windows and give estimates, suggestions given my preferences as i can before making the final decision. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 8067 Registered: 5-2001 |
We went to Pella first, but they were quite pricey. It's how we ended up at Jaeger Lumber & buying Andersens. Just a thought if you are counting $$$. Mind you, they were hardly cheap. Another alternative is to do a few at a time. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 756 Registered: 10-2005 |
DReese- I concur with Greenie on both points...Jaeger is an excellent option, but the best money saving alternative is to be selective and do a portion each year. I would not recommend bringing in 'experts' to advise you. I tried this, and I'll warn you that for some reason, window companies utilize some very very shady people for their salesforce. We were given false information, harassed, lied to, and no-showed on a dozen occassions. One guy who showed up was drunk....at 9 AM Sunday Morning. My experience with Castle was the most regrettable I've ever had (Never answer a Mailer Advertisement again). The last straw was the guy who kept making innapropriate comments about the neighbors daughter....who isn't in 6th grade. In the end, Jaeger (along with our contractor) were fantastic professionals and reasonably priced. An example of doing some at a time, is that our Maplewood Room has as many windows as the rest of the house. It doubled the price. We chose to do the main house first (excluding attic windows) and the Maplewood room later. Worked like a charm, cut the bill in half. Another option is to do Front of house first, back of house second. But my advice is to get the Style/Windows you truly want. These make such a big difference to your enjoyment of the home, becuase you open/shut them far more often than you realize, and they are immediate visible decorations inside every room of the house. PS. it absolutely impacts your heat/cool bill too. | ||
| Travis Citizen Username: Travis Post Number: 443 Registered: 6-2004  |
Pella are in general overpriced junk. Contractors like Andersen; I don't understand why anyone would pay for a wood window and then put vinyl cladding on it. Marvin's are aesthetically okay, but no wood window is going to be great energy-wise. For energy ratings, look here: http://cpd.nfrc.org/pubsearch/psMain.asp. You'll see that Marvin, Anderson, etc have only okay ratings. Look at the Schuco ratings for what you should be looking for. The Quantum2's have numbers in the same range. Now let's talk about vinyl (I wish the search function was not broken). It has a very high thermal expansion rate. That means that the vinyl expands and contracts much more than the glass. That means the window will leak air and energy over time. The weak link in any window is the spacer. Schuco has a state-of-the-art TPS spacer, they are the only company with it. OTOH the only local Schuco dealer I can find has complaints against them recorded with BBB (anyone who knows BBB knows how bad that is). You can probably get the windows to install yourself, but if they are delivered broken (which I've heard reports of) you are SOL. Since Quantum2 has been pushed a fair amount here, I did a little homework. Quantum2 is a decent window, much better than the crap you will buy at Home Depot. I worry about the spacer. They use the Heat Shield spacer. It is basically an alternative to triple-pane, two panes with a sheet of mylar between them. Heat Shield got a bad name among window manufacturers a decade ago (Hurd comes to mind) because that plastic sheet wrinkled and yellowed over time. Presumably the problem has been fixed. Quantum2 makes some noise about the foam in the frame, but it's not a significant energy saver, probably .1 in a U-rating. Re insert versus total replacement: yes only putting in inserts allows big energy leaks around the frame. Doing total replacement allows you to properly insulate around the frame and also gives you the opportunity to update the flashing on your window.....if you have a drainage plane..... I would look around for fiberglass windows..... Marvin Integrity are new construction and come in standard sizes, Marvin Infinity are insert replacements, but there are better windows than these out there..... | ||
| Walt21012 Citizen Username: Walt21012 Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2006 |
You say...."Pella are in general overpriced junk..." Please share with us where this opinion comes from, otherwise it's hardly helpful to anyone. | ||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 345 Registered: 7-2004 |
Most everything's been said... I can't recommend this course because I don't know how it will work in the end, but it may be something to consider: We recently had a general carpenter put in replacement sash cords for a number of non-working windows. They did a poor to fair job in my opinion. On the other hand, we didn't pay a lot - a little more than $50 per window. Nevertheless, we're very happy that we can open those windows. Over time, I plan to strip and paint them. I'd consider using the above approach for windows you think are salvageable (or you could look into a professional doing the full rehab, but I think that is not much of a cost savings, altho I like the look and preservation aspects). For the windows you think are beyond salvage, use the advice above on replacements, etc. You could also do a few windows with each approach this year, see how you like the results, and have that dictate your future moves. These old windows are jarring when you first move in, but other folks have been living there and you can survive for a while as well. Replacing/rehabbing a large number of windows is a big project. It is worth taking your time and being sure you like the results. And, unlike many other big projects, you can do it incrementally. | ||
| Darren Say Grrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Darrensager Post Number: 437 Registered: 11-2001 |
Pella Pella Pella Pella Pella. Overpriced. Not worth the money. I concur with Travis. Again, good enough for my garage, not for my home. Pellas are spoken about mainly by people who have no clue about windows and they just recently purchased a home. Andersen's are the same way. The Andersen windows at my mother's home are crap. The vinyl cladding has cracked on so many of them. Much better windows exist. People, do you homework like Travis and I have! Happy investigating. | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 606 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'll only join in to say that in our experience with recent renovation, most contractors were adamantly opposed to installing Pella windows. In general, they hated working with the company, and found the windows very difficult to install (I don't recall the specifics). Also rolled their eyes at Andersen, but that was more snobbery than difficulty with installation (IMHO). OTOH, I do not like the cheap look of those glued on dividers. We wound up with beauties from a Canadian company.......can't recall the name of the company, but will look it up. Love'em. Beautiful, highly functional, good energy ratings, and our kinda weird size requirement came as a standard rather than custom. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 762 Registered: 10-2005 |
I disagree completely with both prior assessments. At the time of our re-do, I had some spare time, and ended up obsessing on this (there are over 130 manufacturers of windows, 60+ that deal and deliver East of the Mississippi, which seems to be an industry dividing line) I called every window manufacturer East of the Mississippi, including the French Canadian one that MJH likely used. I am aware of Pella/Andersen bashing, however, I found it to be completely unfounded. Further, Marvin (who seems to escape the Bashing Pella/Andersen recieves) had just rejected a warranty claim on a 200 window job that I'm familiar with. (1/2 the windows fogged up inside, clearly a defect....which they claimed was installation. WRONG)......Anyway, that helped me rule them out as a manufacturer. With respect to all the vinyl window manufacturers, all I can say is that if you like it, go with it. If you don't, no matter how much Darrensager tells you how amazing they are, you just won't get it. I had contractors roll their eyes at Andersen, tell me how Pella sold-out to lowes and is crap, and than show me a piece of dirt window they wanted to use. No thanks. Go to the Pella showroom on Springfield Ave., go to Windorama over in Livingston and see all your options. Pella and Andersen arent' the only choice, but from the sound of your budget per window, it sounds like will eventually be heading in that direction. Decide what YOU like. Also, be sure to report back how ugly your neighbors homes with Vinyl windows appear on your block...and wonder if they look that awful on the outide, if they are WORSE on the inside... (ooops...did my opinion slip through?) | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 365 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hmmm...lots of disagreement over this brand vs. that brand. Why go through all this headache for windows that'll cost you $20k and will need to be replaced AGAIN within 20 years? Any energy savings will NEVER equal the up front cost to install replacements and most look like crap. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 764 Registered: 10-2005 |
Not only do I expect to recoup the cost in energy savings, I have every expectation of recouping at least half or more at the time of sale. I know many buyers who have walked away from maplewood homes that haven't had their windows updated yet. I think in most buyers minds, the order of preference is: 1. Updated Wood Windows 2. Updated Vinyll Windows 3. Rehabbed existing windows 4. Nothing | ||
| DReese Citizen Username: Dreese Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2006 |
ok, all helpful but overwhelming and confusing at the same time. but all input gives me a start on research and options and etc. thanks to all. btw, can someone see if they can give me the french canadian manufacturer when you get a chance. i want to look at all possibilities. thanks! | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 366 Registered: 11-2003 |
Smarty, I don't prioritize a buyer's mind over my own. Anyone who would would walk away from a house simply because the windows haven't been "updated" without any other knowledge about the windows is uninformed. Will buyers pay a premium for replacement windows that are just 10 years old? Only if they are idiots. Smarty, please provide a break down of your costs against your estimated savings. I'll play along and pretend I'd be replacing my windows. I'll use Quantum2's "Gauranteed*" 49% savings as a benchmark. Annual heating costs: about $1,800, I'll round up to $2,000 Average cost per window including installation: $700 (accurate?) Number of windows: 30 So... Cost of installation: 30 x $700 = $21,000 Annual savings claimed: $2,000 - ($2,000 x .49) = $1,020 Years to break even assuming claimed savings: $21,000 / $1,020 = 20.6 Great, so even IF the claimed savings hold true the windows will likely be giving up the ghost by the time I break even. Time to replace the windows, AGAIN! Even so, I highly doubt that the energy savings would be as high as claimed by Quantum2. Why? My old windows with wood storms are pretty efficient already. Also, Quantum2's gaurantee is ridiculous and almost impossible to make a claim against. Oh, and you have to replace all of your doors to even qualify. | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 607 Registered: 5-2001 |
DReese: These are the Canadian windows I spoke of above: Jeld-Wen Norco Premium Collection, Double Hung Wood Windows SCHD-2418-1 mj | ||
| Walt21012 Citizen Username: Walt21012 Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2006 |
DReese, we went through Pella Windows & Doors, 659 Morris Tpke, Springfield, NJ 07081-1513. A salesperson came to measure and give us an estimate. There was ZERO sales pressure. Oh, and "we did our research" and "know something about windows" and "did not recently buy a home." (We used "energy efficient" vinyl windows in our garage.) I have no doubt there are better windows out there, in addition to worse windows out there. Our experience (unlike the other extensive renovations we have been doing over the last three years) was entirely hassle-free, which is hard to come by. Don't take my word as the gospel, as there clearly are several self-appointed experts on this bulletin board. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 767 Registered: 10-2005 |
gj- it seems you are really really trying hard here to justify not improving your windows, even applying formula's and back-of the envelope calculations to explain your thinking. Couple thoughts- First off, we love them. Our prior windows were downright ugly, particularly the storms installed probably sometime in the seventies. The sills were rotted out on many of them too, and they rattled when the wind blew, or when my neighbor ran his lawnmower. Second- If my winter heating bill is $2,000, I'll do cartwheels to your house and back. Our final average cost of each window installed came to $550 per. Third- If you back off what you get back at time of sale (say, even 25% of the cost of the windows) than you should be financially happy. While it's very very hard to discern a true resale value, you can get professional estimates below: Conservative esetimate: www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/author/normfisher/resalereturn.shtm Aggressive Estimate: www.bankrate.com/brm/news/homeimprovementguide/resales2.asp?caret=7 and take a look at how people list their homes...all new Pella's/Marvins/Andersens ALWAYS make the realtor listing. I've never seen this though "Recently rehabbed original windows that are no longer painted shut" | ||
| kevin Supporter Username: Kevin Post Number: 724 Registered: 2-2002 |
The "guaranteed savings" is one of those marketing gimicks that cannot be proven unless you live in a perfectly controlled environment. Darren, correct me if I am wrong, but I recently noticed that your friend Arnie Roeland with the Quantum 2s is also marketing your Master Shield (gutter filtration) product. Is this the reason why you always hype his company? I'd like to hear from others who have dealt with Roeland. Are they as good as Darren leads one to believe? | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 769 Registered: 10-2005 |
Kevin, you are BRILLIANT!!! I've been dying to figure out what's been going on there for a while now, but haven't been able to put a finger on it. I've only ever seen one other positive reinforcement for those things, and it was suspicious post (one or two time poster) from someone I've never seen before..... Genius! Mystery solved, and thank you. | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 367 Registered: 11-2003 |
 I've been wondering about that, too. Darren: more shady tactics by replacement window salesman?  No thanks, I'll stick with the windows I have...and clean my own gutters.  |
