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Star Princess
Citizen
Username: Star_princess
Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 3:04 pm: | 
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I really hate to bring up this topic again but my heart sinks everytime someone asks about replacement windows for their house. The following is the best explanation I have ever seen regarding replacement windows. BTW - I do not work for any kind of window or window repair company.
"A TALE OF SPRINGS, STRINGS AND PLASTIC THINGS
PITFALLS OF REPLACEMENT WINDOWS
WHY ALL THE NEW TECHNOLOGY IS ONLY TEMPORARY.
The following is a explanation of why we don't recommend replacing old windows unless absolutely necessary.
The double hung, rope and pulley window is a very simple thing; two cast iron weights total the exact weight of the window sash making it hang weightlessly. Repairs require knowlege of how the window works, but use only common materials available in most hardware stores.
These windows were installed in most houses from approximately 1850 to 1945. After the Second World War, the window was reinvented. It was a time of "progress is our most important product". Progress often meant throwing out everything old and starting over. What happened with windows is that the simple old system of counterweighting with cast iron weights was replaced with spring suspension systems. These systems have been invented and reinvented with various combinations of plastic parts that transfer the springs to the sashes. Every replacement window uses some variation of this basic combination.
A replacement window is any window assembly that was installed to replace a rope and pulley window. They can consist of just two new duplicate sashes and a set of spring-loaded jamb liners or a complete assembly including casing, and exterior trim cladding. All of them depend on suspension systems consisting of various combinations of springs, strings and plastic things. (See illustrations)
Every day, hundreds of them are installed, and hundreds of old wooden single pane sashes are sent to the landfill. This has been going on since 1945, with most of it happening in the last 20 years. So, how have they stood up? Not well, judging by what I've seen in my 15 years of repairing windows.
In the words of an engineer looking at the average replacement window,
"Too many things to go wrong".
And, when things do go wrong, break and fall down, you have a lot more trouble on your hands than if you'd stuck with your old windows.
The problems begin with the double insulated glass. This means there are two panes of glass in each sash. Since glass accounts for most of the weight of windows, you have now doubled the weight of each component. If any of the springs, strings and plastic things should fail, you have a window twice as dangerous as an old one! And, the insulated seals are subject to failure, and when they do they "fog" (develops a white residue which makes the window opaque). The glass must then be replaced, to the tune of $85 to $150!
A spring loaded suspension system has a serious flaw. All the time the window is closed, the springs are at full extension, such as all winter! How long it will take those springs to lose most of their tension depends on the quality of their construction, and the weight of the sash. But lose it they will, sooner or later, and when they do, you'll have a top sash that won't stay up and a bottom that won't open very far. This is not a fun window to live with!
A rule of thumb to keep in mind is that the larger the opening, the more likely you are to have problems with replacement windows. An assembly that works fine in the little demonstrator the salesman brought to show you may work less well in a larger window, since the components are the same, except for spring tension, no matter what the size. As the size of the opening increases, so does the strain on all the springs, strings and plastic things. And so does the friction. All of these replacement window systems were designed to produce a "draft-free" window. Whether or not they actually do is dependent on the quality of the construction and the installation. But one of the ways they do this is to have the sashes ride on some sort of weatherstripping system at their sides. So the bigger the window, the greater the friction. We have seen many cases where the friction was so great it increased the effort necessary to open the window to a level impossible for small, short, or weak people. A case in point was a old school building converted to housing for the elderly. The converting contractor had cleverly put double glass sashes in place of the original ones, then tried to adapt the original weight and pulley system by doubling the weights. This resulted in a system with so much inertia that most of the residents had to call the janitor any time they wanted to open or close their windows!
The result of these factors is that in very large windows, if anything goes wrong the situation can become dangerous. A 75 pound sash is not easy to open after its suspension system has broken. It is also dangerous to tilt. The worst case we've yet to be involved in (but there's still time!), was in an 18th century school building converted to expensive condos in downtown Boston. The openings were over nine feet tall, and recessed into a very thick wall at least a foot. These huge sashes were not working, and in fact the residents had not been able to open them since moving in nearly a year earlier, but couldn't find anyone willing to deal with them. We quickly discovered why. As we tried to tilt the heavy sashes, a step necessary to see what is wrong with the suspension, we were damaging the white painted walls of the recess. We then had to try to deal with the fact that the cam locking system which was supposed to allow the sashes to be removed was broken, because the enormous weight had been too much for the plastic thing involved. Once we got one out, and discovered the problem was in the broken plastic parts, it was even more difficult to get them back in without the cam lock, and more damage to the wall ensued. There are hundreds of different types of these plastic cam locks and we didn't have that particular one in stock so the window had to get re-installed while waiting for parts. Of course the condo owner was upset when he saw the damage and then in a few days found the glass fogging in one of the windeows we'd taken out. This double insulated glass was way past its engineering tolerances at that size, so much so that just handling it broke the seal! This was a no-win situation for everyone concerned, and probably means that we will put a size limit on the replacement windows that we will handle.
And then there's the claims of "energy efficiency" and big savings on your heating bills... what they don't tell you is that this same efficiency and these same savings could usually be obtained with exterior caulking, or new storms, or weatherstripping. (See "Drafts- The Real Story") The fact is that "R-Value" is based on the assumption that each pane of glass is worth one R. Therefore, two panes of glass equal two "R's" whether they are in an old window or a new one! So, if you have a good storm window, and your original windows close and lock, they are worth just as much in "R-Value" as a brand new, double insulated tilt sash window!
When replacement window people claim substantial energy savings, they may be basing them on comparing their window to yours without a storm (an unfair comparison), or on the reduction of infiltration by "cladding" the extrerior trim, which could be duplicated with a tube of caulking!
So if we've explained everything adequately so far you should know that the next time a window replacement company calls you and claims you could "save lots of money" by buying their windows they are, in effect, lying. They are making an unfair comparison, because they are assuming your old windows have no storm and need exterior caulking. If you have a good storm, adequate caulking, and weatherstripping on your original sashes, there would be no difference in the energy losses between your window assembly and theirs! And, what you have will far outlast what they are trying to sell you! They claim their windows are "maintenance free", yet if you restore your old windows, by the time they need maintenance again those plastic windows would be in a landfill!
You could ask them some pertinent questions although it is doubtful that the person on the phone would have the foggiest idea of how to answer them. Regardless, those questions would be, on what comparative R-values are you basing those claimed savings? Your window is worth how many R's and what rate of infiltration? And you are comparing it to an old window in what condition and what values are you giving it? How many years will be the payback time for your windows?
A word about "tilt sashes". You know, how they trumpet you can just tilt them in to clean them? This works fine on the little demonstrator they bring to your house. But now try to imagine tilting in and holding onto a window that is longer than your arm can reach and weighs over fifty pounds! This is what has happened to hundreds of people in old buildings with large windows in the Boston area! Also imagine this fifty pound sash held in place by two little plastic clips, which will be the case with most replacements while tilted for cleaning. It doesn't take a leap of imagination to see that most breakage of components happens while tilting for cleaning.
What the advertisements don't tell you is that replacement windows are much more difficult and expensive to repair than old ones, and there are very few people who will do it. Look in the Yellow Pages under "Windows"- how many pages of window advertising do you see as opposed to how many under "Window Repair"? The parts for these "modern" windows are not available in your local hardware store the way maintenance materials for your old windows were.
We simply ask people to realize that new windows are not automatically better than old ones. There are excellent ones on the market- but you must pay for them. In this business it is truly a matter of you get what you pay for. We have been advertising under window repairs since the early 80's and have seen hundreds of cheap replacement windows at their worst- with broken plastic parts, fogged glass, terrible drafts and falling sashes.
For instance, on a cold day one March, we visited six different homes to give estimates for repair of replacement windows. They were all very nice condos in the Back Bay and Beacon Hill areas of Boston. All had been renovated and fitted with various types of replacement windows.
It was the end of a very difficult winter and we felt sorry for these people as we surveyed what they had been living with: most of their windows were festooned with towels, caulking and plastic, in an effort to stop the drafts that were invading their homes.
In another case an elderly couple had all their windows replaced in two stages, two years apart. When they called their contractor for the second set, he was using a different brand. Three years later parts began failing and glass fogging. They called the contractor, but he was out of business. They were lucky to find our repair service, and lucky that we were able to locate parts.
We've seen countless cases where someone purchased a condo or old house full of replacement windows only to find various problems a short time later, but no record of who made them or installed them. And we've seen too many cases of replacements in converted nineteenth century school buildings where the openings are so huge, that the strings, springs and plastic things were strained beyond their engineering.
How old is your house? Your windows have lasted that long- do you think a plastic window could do as well? When we restore them, we are bringing them back to their original condition (or better!), and since they already lasted for as long as your house has, they could last that long again!"
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Darren Say Grrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 479
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 3:36 pm: |
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Oh god, here we go again.
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susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1648
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 3:39 pm: |
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Nice article...now, do you have recommendations for who to hire to rehab and do lead removal from a whole houseful of original windows?
Otherwise, this nice advice is useless to me! |
Star Princess
Citizen
Username: Star_princess
Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 3:47 pm: |
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More news you can use! (Apologies because the photos won't copy to the message board)
Excerpts below by Preservation Salem, Inc., Salem, NJ
REPLACEMENT WINDOW MYTHS
You may have received a phone solicitation from companies selling replacement windows. Slam down the phone! They are smooth talking sharks, trying to make a sale. Most property owners do not notice their windows until they perceive a problem. When a problem is noticed, they may get their information on solutions from contractors or window manufactures who are in the business to make money. Reading the following will not only save you a lot of money but your house will retain its beauty.
MYTH 1: NO MAINTENANCE
A principal myth is that replacement windows will eliminate maintenance. Don’t you believe it! The public has been sold on the myth of no maintenance, but there will always be maintenance. For appearance sake alone, you certainly will be painting those windows at some point, just as it is common to see aluminum siding, once touted as “maintenance-free,” now being painted. And to paint vinyl, you must use an expensive epoxy-base product.
When wood is continually painted, its life expectancy can be about 200 years. On the other hand, according to studies, vinyl has a life expectancy of about 20 years. The plasticizers in vinyl will evaporate over time, making the vinyl brittle and subject to cracking. And what cost are you imposing on future owners when your venture doesn’t last? Go with time-tested materials: paint on wood.
How are you going to replace a double-glazed pane of glass when it breaks? Manufacturers occasionally modify their product line. You may therefore need to replace the entire sash and frame. Many other components of replacement windows deteriorate relatively quickly. The seal around double glazing can fail within ten years resulting in condensation between the panes of glass which will then require replacement. Many of the plastic and neoprene seals, which hold the glass in place in vinyl and aluminum windows also degrade in ultraviolet light. These seals have a life expectancy of 10 years or less. Try to imagine locating replacement vinyl gasketing 10 years from now, or the problem of replacing a bent aluminum channel.
MYTH 2: LESS EXPENSIVE
The cost of replacing an original window is usually NOT justified. Your initial cost will be high. The City of Bridgeton Community Development Agency found that to REPAIR the existing window sashes for one house cost $700. To REPLACE the same windows would have cost $3,000. That cannot be justified in the light of the unknowns about the longevity of the materials and the inevitable costs of maintenance.
Repair is easier than you think. Old windows were made to be repaired. They can be taken apart to insert new rails or muntins (cross pieces separating the panes). Broken parts can be remade or whole sashes duplicated fairly cheaply. Rotted wood can be repaired to look like new with easy-to-use epoxy fillers. In many cases, these windows have been in service for over a hundred years with much of their deterioration resulting directly from a lack of maintenance. With repairs and regular maintenance, the life of these windows can potentially be extended for an additional 50 or 100 years.
The quality of the wood your old windows are made of will not be seen again. That virgin forest wood is close-grained and resinous. Today’s young lumber cannot match the longevity of the historic wood. To trash your old windows is to trash a superior material that can no longer be bought. A replacement window will need replacement before the old one would have needed simple maintenance.
MYTH 3: HIGHER R-VALUE
A common and often exaggerated reason for replacement windows is that new windows will significantly reduce heating costs. Studies have indicated that in most cases approximately 20% of the heating loss of a building is through windows. The remaining 80% is through roofs, walls, floors and chimneys, with roofs being the greatest culprit. Following this model, reducing the heat loss through windows by 50% will only result in a 10% decrease in the overall heat loss in the building.
Even with this in mind, keeping the heat in and the cold out are still prime wintertime goals. Both goals can be met with your existing windows. Keeping the heat in means insulation, measured in R-value. The R-value of windows is a function of the air space between window panes, because air does not conduct heat very well.
An old window coupled with a storm window will give you a higher R-value than a double-glazed replacement. This is because there is more air space between the storm and the inside window than between the two panes of a replacement window.
Let’s look at this another way. One measure of heat transfer is the U-value, the number of Btu’s per hour transferred through a square foot of material. When comparing thermal performance, the LOWER the U-value the BETTER the performance. According to ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air-conditioning Engineers, 1977 & 1997 Chapter 26), the U-value for single glazed wooden windows range from 0.80 to 0.89. The addition of a storm window proudly reduces these figures to a range of 0.44 to 0.49. A double-glazed metal window has a U-value of about 0.60 and a double-glazed wood with vinyl was 0.51 to 0.55. Therefore, if you do not have storm windows, install them instead of replacing your windows. You will spend less money and get more insulation.
For those more technical folks, the organization NCPTT (National Center for Preservation Technology and Training) (http://www.ncptt.nps.gov/) performed a Window Study. This organization "advances the use of science and technology in historic preservation. Working in the fields of archeology, architecture, landscape architecture and materials conservation, the Center accomplishes its mission through training, education, research, technology transfer and partnerships."
The following link (a PDF document) will show you all you how they came about proving that new replacement windows are NOT as energy effecient as original windows.
www.ncptt.nps.gov/PDFfiles/1996-08.pdf
What about drafts? You can feel the same draft with brand new “top of the line” windows as you can with your old windows. The reason for this is Convection. This is how it works. Glass is a great conductor. The warm air in your house contacts a cold window glass where it cools and then draws more warm air to it. This continues on and on until convection currents are created throughout the room and, perhaps throughout the house. This draft feeling, is created only because the product GLASS is used in a window and not wood (wood is a great insulator) which, of course, would prevent the ability to see outside. Use of interior shutters, shades, or curtains, can solve this problem by blocking off the glass from the warmed room air. An additional layer of glass (storm window) which creates an air space between the glass will help, however you’re still using glass and heat will still be drawn to it although not as much. Pretty interesting, huh.
THE VISUAL IMPACT OF WINDOWS
If appearance is important to you, and as a homeowner I would hope it is, replacement windows will give your house an entirely different look and feel. Because of differences in their material and construction characteristics, wood, vinyl and aluminum windows do not look the same. Wood windows tend to have articulated moldings. Vinyl and aluminum windows, however, tend to have flat or square profiles. While a “divided light” look, in multi-pane window is possible, muntins for vinyl and aluminum replacement windows often are “snap-in”, creating a very shallow or flat appearance.
One of the biggest mistake people make is replacing their windows with a style that’s wrong for the house. An example follows. Most homes built during the later part of the 1800’s through the early 1900’s had two-over-two windows. (See the example below). Unfortunately, most of the time these windows are replaced with one-over-one (double hung) windows, or worse yet, six-over-six, creating a colonial (federal) look on a Victorian house. What an awful look. To some people this looks fine, just like a lava lamp on their antique oak sideboard.
See the photo below. This is a CRIME to architecture!
This Italianate house once had beautiful two-over-two, double-hung, arched windows. Now due to ignorance the windows are squared-off, and new disposable plastic windows installed with those tacky plastic grids. Some are even covered over with wood.
As you can see this is the office for Century 21 Realtors. One would think that people in the business of selling houses would know something about elementary architecture. One would also think that the window salesperson would have some training. Let the buyer beware! call them
If the degree of deterioration necessitates the replacement of windows, wood replacement windows are recommended. It is extraordinarily important that every effort be made to match the style, muntin grids, size and profiles of elements whenever possible. Altering any of these features will make a dramatic change in a building’s overall historic character.
The replacement windows you are being peddled are most likely very inappropriate for your house and will degrade its historic value. The size, configuration, materials, and milling of the windows tell a story about your house. They are a visual record of the period in which your house was built.
There is also a direct correlation between historic integrity and market value of houses. A preserved old house will bring a higher price than an old house remodeled to look like something it never was. Please be very careful in deciding on a window strategy.
IF YOU MUST REPLACE
The following information is taken from The Old House Journal Magazine (Nov./Dec. 1999, page 40, by Jennie L. Phipps)
A wood window has to be pretty far gone before it needs to be replaced. Modern weather-stripping can be installed, sashes can be rebuilt, reproduction period glass can be reinstalled. Even severely rotten wood can be strengthened and rebuilt with durable epoxy fillers.
However, as important as old windows are, there are cases when a window must be replaced due to extreme deterioration. In such cases you should duplicate the original exactly in number and size of panes and overall size. A two-over-two pane configuration should not be replaced with a one-over-one or a six-over six. Also, never cut down a window opening to take a smaller window.
Today there are alternatives for replacement windows. Most window manufactures offer at least three options: the cheapest is and it most definitely LOOKS the CHEAPEST is the snap-in, removable grille or muntins, designed to fit a sash with a single large pane of glass. DO NOT settle for fake snap-in muntins sold by Anderson and other manufacturers.
This is a photo of a bank.
In this photo you can compare
beautiful divided light windows to cheap looking snap-in grids.
The actual photo doesn't look much better.
These plastic windows are what homeowners are using -
they say and think these windows make their house look nice - ha ha!
How would you like to live across the street from this?
Do you hate these windows too? Call Freehold Savings and tell them (732)462-6700
A second option is what is called a simulated divided light, which consist of muntins that are permanently attached to the interior AND exterior panes with a durable adhesive - - a compromise for homeowners who want dual-paned windows.
Then we have the third and best option ASSIDE from restoring your originals. For true divided lights, look for a manufacturer that makes all-wood windows. Cedar Windows by Bergerson, for example custom-manufactures windows in rot-resistant cedar. “The wood goes all the way through and separates the window panes. That’s what true divided light means.” Divided light gives windows that sparkle. There are other manufacturers such as Pella and Pozzi that make matching windows. When I spoke to a representative from Marvin, I was told that they would even install Restoration Glass. (Restoration Glass is new glass made with slight distortions which create that extra sparkle glass had years ago. (800)221-7379 )
Although there are options to choose from and costs to consider, the lower cost windows will definitely look as if you cut corners. For such an important feature on your house your dollars will reap more rewards when choosing an exact match. Otherwise, you risk altering the architectural appearance. If the originals are long gone, a historically sensitive choice can dramatically improve the house’s appearance. Before ordering windows from the manufacturers mentioned above, I would first check your local phone book under Furniture Makers or Carpenters. You will need to so some good investigating. Someone that can do custom woodwork can make windows for you at a much lower cost without paying for the manufacturers name.
If you do replace your windows, the best thing to do is to store the old sashes. A future owner may find them very useful. Otherwise, donate them to a historical society so they can be available to old-house restorers who need them.
THE LOOK OF STORM WINDOWS
Storm windows are an awfully expensive substitute for caulk. Caulking, weather-stripping, and reglazing are all inexpensive do-it-yourself procedures that should be done WHETHER or NOT you buy storms. After you’ve stopped the air leaks, you may find that storm windows are not a high priority.
As stated earlier, the use of storm windows will give you the best energy savings. However, they detract from the appearance of your house by covering up the beauty of your original window. Compare a window with and without a storm window. The extra beauty may be worth the extra cost in heating. Also be aware that adding storm windows merely changes the R-value from .9 to 2.0. (The average uninsulated wood-frame wall is R-4.5)
To solve this problem, more and more people are putting their storm windows INSIDE the house. This allows your prime windows to face the world in all their glory, solving the “blank stare” problem encountered by covering divided light windows. The unique thing about all those separate panes of glass is that each reflects light a bit differently, so passers-by see a dancing reflection. That effect - - subtle but important - - is lost when a single sheet of glass is placed over such windows. You lose the sense of depth created by a three dimensional effect. This problem is also encountered with the use of full glass storm doors and putting a plastic covering over furniture. If the look of one doesn’t bother you then the others shouldn’t either. Beauty comes with a cost, but the cost isn't what the advertisers say it is. Nevertheless, it is always better to install a storm window - they are reversible, than to replace the original sash to prevent heat loss.
Remember - Windows are the eyes of the house. Beautiful windows (eyes) sparkle and send a signal of warmth and create interest. The Door is the mouth of the house which (if there is no storm door), creates a feeling of welcome and a desire to enter as it draws you inside. See for yourself. Does a house with a storm door seem more inviting than one without?
Even the old-style wooden hung storms detract from a house. Instead of the window sash being recessed in the window, the storm makes it even and flat with the house. Also, notice that the glare from the second piece of glass in the storm window, results in the inability to appreiciate, the added feature of true divided light. (I will try to get some better pictures)
The following two houses, built by the same builder are located next door to each other. Both have arched Italianate windows and both have good quality storm windows painted to match the sash. One owner took the extra step and installed arched storm windows so that this beautiful feature can be enjoyed, while the other used rectangular storms and filled in the gap with wood at the arch.
Much more detailed information on the types of storm windows, window repair, etc. exists. For information on Restoration and Repairs, go to www.HistoricHomeWorks.com
Additional information can be found in the National Park Service Preservation Brief on Historic Wood Windows. http://www2.cr.nps.gov/tps/briefs/presbhom.htm
Darren please don't start! I just want to get some information out to folks.
Susan - there are lots of companies that can maintain your original windows. Or you can do it yourself. I'm beginning to think that I may have to give a wood window repair workshops to show folks how easy it is.
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Spqr
Citizen
Username: Spqr
Post Number: 104
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 3:47 pm: |
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susan1014 - contact John Hone of Hone Restoration (973-403-1501). His company does window rehab and lead abatement among other things. He now has a banner advertisement on MOL. |
shoshannah
Citizen
Username: Shoshannah
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 3:53 pm: |
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spqr: Have you used John Hone? If so, were you satisfied? |
Spqr
Citizen
Username: Spqr
Post Number: 105
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
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shoshannah, I have used John Hone for extensive plaster repair of cracks and missing patches before we moved into our second Maplewood house. The plaster is textured and his crew did an amazing job of blending in the repair work to the original plaster. He is a true craftsman. I will be using him later this year to repair and restore some of the original windows that are currently having issues. He was not the cheapest with the work he did for me, but I was extrememly satisfied with the end product. Also, he is very professional in that he returns calls in a timely fashion, returns calls at all (compared to a lot of other trades people), communicates with you during each step of the process, keeps you informed as to actual cost against estimate along the way and is willing to work with you to make a job economical either through different options or having you do some of the steps in a job if you are able. So yes, I was very satisified and feel that the extra money I spent compared to cheaper estimates I received was well worth it. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 889
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 1:51 am: |
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If we taught ourselves how to fix the ol' Briggs and Stratton Engine, and learnt ourselves how to crank the shaft and replace them there fluids, why....that model T would STILL be running today.....who needs thems new Ve-hic-als, all fancy shmancy....
I'll admit I read at MOST the first paragraph. What silliness you perpetuate! |
Arsenal
Citizen
Username: Arsenal
Post Number: 93
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 8:12 am: |
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We used the Black brothers. They have been recommended before. They did five of our front windows for us. |
mim
Citizen
Username: Mim
Post Number: 632
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 1:55 pm: |
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We used the Black Brothers too, tho I understand they've gotten so many rave recommendations you can't track them down anymore! They did six windows on the front of our house (rehabbed the windows and measured for, ordered and installed new storms) all for less than we'd have paid for a single replacement window!! |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14946
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:45 pm: |
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I have an old house. Some of the windows are new. They are lousy. I am going to replace them. I guess my choices are wood, vinyl, or aluminum. I am leaning towards wood. What are the pros and cons? Wood is a special order. Some windows are wood on the inside and aluminum on the outside. I can special order wood and save a little money.
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Darren Say Grrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 483
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 7:31 pm: |
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Lots of old posts on windows Tom. Surprised you never jumped in before.
Star, I don't know how to read what you posted. You put this up as factual, however its really propaganda from a preservation society who's opposed to most new things, windows being one. IMHO.
I know I've been blasted in the past for posting clips from manufacturer's websites because the view was biased. If I posted a rebuttal from the National Association of Aluminum Window Manufacturers, a non profit organization who's sole purpose was to edjucate people on the benefits of Aluminum windows in your home would anyone believe a word that they said? I don't know if they would so why buy the preservation society's viewpoint?
For once, I have to agree with Smarty (there's a first) in that a lot of things in your home you can keep fixing and fixing and fixing. However there comes to a point where modern things are just better. I know I prefer my washing machine to a washtub and washboard. Or my natural gas boiler to a coal fired one. I love my digital widescreen HDTV to a single speaker AM radio. I prefer a Camry to a Ford Model T. And I love my new modern windows versus the old POS single pane windows with aluminum storms that I fixed and tried making as energy efficient as I possibly could.
Back when my house was built along with my windows, they didn't use any insulation in the walls. Should I not insulate my walls if given the opportunity?
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Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 894
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:01 am: |
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Darren, there MUST have been another agreement somewhere back on MOL?....somwhere???  |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12095
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:34 am: |
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This is a toughy. Having spent 28 years in 1920s Maplewood houses with mostly original windows I know first hand that they are a pain in the neck and other bodily parts. However, they do look nice with the true divided glass and the look really can't be duplicated with vinyl windows or even expensive custom replacement windows.
Our new house of 1950s construction has a combination of late 1980s Anderson new construction windows in the addition and very new vinyl windows in the older part of the house. Mrs. K loves being able to clean the outside without sending me up on a ladder to do the work.  But they have the charm of a vinyl sofa to be honest.
Tough call. If you live in a typical 1920s house in the area I don't think you are destroying an architectual masterpiece by using vinyl. However, if you live in one of the grand houses in Montrose or Rossevelt Park it is a differnet story. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14949
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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Mine is a 1888 Victorian, but not grand, as in the Montrose section. When we do work on the house, in the demolition process, we see, by the materials they use, that it was intended as a middle income home, not an upper income home.
We're not looking to restore it to original condition. We just don't want to uglify it more than the previous owners did. And some of these biased reports on the evils of vinyl have me half-convinced that wood isn't really that hard to maintain.
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kevin
Supporter
Username: Kevin
Post Number: 785
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:10 am: |
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I think that most people are concerned with the look of the town as viewed from the streets. You could always consider replacing the windows on the sides and back of the house with something more up to date - then take the best window components that you removed from the sides and back to rehab the front windows.
My 1925 house is a mish mosh of different eras. The main structure has all of the original windows except for the kitchen which has an Anderson vinyl handcrank window. It looks fine from the interior because it is right over the sink but looks terrible when viewed from the back of the house. It is a different size than the other windows and has a very narrow frame compared to rest.
The front porch was enclosed at some point. They used a picture window with aluminum frame windows on each side. Those windows are tough to open and close, so they never get used. From the outside, they do fit with the character of the house - mainly because they have the aluminum storms and screens like the other windows (another innovation that wasn't original)
All of the basement windows in the finished area were replaced with vinyl. They look okay, but they have frosted glass which instantly gives it away that they are newer. They also have thicker vinyl frames than the two remaining original basement windows in the crawl space which are wood and have seen better days due to rot.
The more I think about it, many of the houses in the area have non period aluminum storms and screens, like mine. I don't hear people trying to get homeowners to remove them. I'm not going to debate vinyl, but as Darren says, the technology in windows is always evolving and there are going to be high quality products and garbage.
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AngelaK
Citizen
Username: Angelak
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:24 am: |
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I was interested to see this thread. I have 24 old windows in my 1920's home. The cost of replacing is prohibitive for me at the moment, so I was thinking about restoring them one or two at a time myself over the next couple of years. If there is a workshop that runs periodically that offers hands-on training, I'd love to hear about it. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 900
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:26 am: |
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kevin, how do you like the frosted look of the cellar windows? Was that purposeful? |
kevin
Supporter
Username: Kevin
Post Number: 787
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:33 am: |
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Smarty, I'll have to really look at the windows when I get home both from the inside and the outside. They came with the house and the frosted glass is nice for privacy on the sides so that the neighbors can't see in. They have handcranks, like the one in the kitchen, and it makes it easy to open and close the windows.
Whenever I think handcranks (or whatever someone would call them), I always think of the 80s.
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Dobler88
Citizen
Username: Dobler88
Post Number: 113
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:37 am: |
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We have all of the original 1920's widows, except for the kitchen and bathrooms (which face the back of the house, fear not for aesthetics!).
Only 4 of the original windows open (rest are painted shut or otherwise inoperable). They have decades of paint on them. And I am scared to mess with them, but I love the way they look on the outside. So I guess I sacrifice utility for looks and character?
I can only imagine what it is going to cost me to rehab them. It is so tempting to replace them with vinyl. But there is something about the wavy glass and the wood frame...
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gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 376
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 12:43 pm: |
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Dobler, they've made it this long, so don't be too afraid to mess with them, just use reasonable care. They were designed to be maintained for many lifetimes of service using simple tools and readily available hardware, something that can't be said about modern replacement windows.
The approach mentioned by Angela is a prudent one. Do two or three at a time and you'll eventually get them done, though it will take time. However, it will cost almost nothing.
The two most prevalent problems with old windows are paint build up and/or broken sash cords or chains. These two problems are NOT indicative of windows that need to be replaced. The sashes can be removed, stripped if necessary, repainted and the sash cords/chains replaced. Once rehabbed they should glide effortlessly like only a weight and pulley window can.
Give it a try if you are so inclined, perhaps on a smaller or inconspicuous window. It helps if you have a storm that will keep the opening closed while you have the sashes removed.
darren, for one thing, window manufacturers and installers stand to make far more money selling new windows than anyone will ever make rehabbing old windows. This is especially true since once you install replacements you are pretty much locked into a cycle of replacing them every 10-20 years. What a gold mine for the window business! It's a shame more people aren't available to rehab windows, but really this is a relatively easy diy project, all the more so if you do only a couple at a time.
Tom, here's the deal with wood: keep it painted and it will last a long, long time. Note though that the old growth wood used in older windows is less prone to rot and therefore somewhat more forgiving when it comes to maintenance. Storm windows also help to protect the windows. You can still get wood storms if you like. |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 905
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:27 pm: |
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gj1, these are all very interesting points, however the one that I can't seem to overlook is the fact that the old windows need to be covered up by the horrible horrible looking aluminum storms (either on the inside or out). Therefore, all the charm is eliminated with that move alone. What do you propose to solve that issue? I've heard of people getting the original storms remade/redesigned, but I can't imagine that is an easy project or an easy maintainance? |
Wendyn
Supporter
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 3154
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:32 pm: |
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We replaced the aluminum storms/screens with new vinyl storms/screens. They look a LOT better and we still have our original windows. You can also order wood storms/screens from a place in Newark I think. |
Spqr
Citizen
Username: Spqr
Post Number: 106
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:38 pm: |
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Smarty, I have 33 original windows in my house that would be cost prohibitive to replace (not that I would want to replace them anyhow). I do agree with you that the storms are ugly and also, not that easy to deal with as far as opening and closing. The storms on my windows are pretty old and should be replaced in the next year or two. I am going to look into replacing them with a wood storm that replicates what would originally have been used but has the modern convenience of sliding sashes and screens all in one. Here is a link to one manufacturer: http://www.spencerworks.com/ |
the decider
Citizen
Username: Tchristmann
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:55 pm: |
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What about those old crank windows? I have a 1925 brick colonial with crank out casements. Some don't open. Some don't close all the way (causing major drafts in the wintertime). Are those easy to fix by myself? Anyone have the Black Bros. number? |
wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 443
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:07 pm: |
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Somebody please tell me where the F I can get replacement panels for my aluminum storm windows which are installed over my original wood panel windows. Having some type of storm window is essential both summer and winter and getting replacements for these is near impossible as far as I can tell.
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Spqr
Citizen
Username: Spqr
Post Number: 107
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:12 pm: |
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Are you talking about replacing broken glass in the storms? If so, take the frame of the broken pane to Buncher's Hardware in Milburn. They will replace the glass. |
Darren Say Grrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 488
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:21 pm: |
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Smarty,
I hope there is more that we can agree upon in the future. Cheers!
Gj,
As for the window industry, its SUPER competitive. Any industry wants your business. One could say the companies that manufacturer the replacement parts for your old windows make far more by you fixing your windows than replacing them with new ones. In fact they don't make a penny unless you do keep fixing them. Agreed? Each manufacturer in the window manufacturing business wants your dollars and that has lead to better products and more improvements are on the way I'm sure. The life expectancy of a replacement I would say has increased over the past 5 years, not gone down. If a homeowner had to replace their windows every 10-20 years that would be a vicious cycle. My Quantum 2's better last me 25+ years or I'll be quite upset to put it mildly.
Still similar arguments could be made for other industies, like the siding industry. Most people put up vinyl which eventually goes bad because they think that because they don't need to paint it they don't need to clean it. How about the roofing industry? Why doesn't everyone put up a metal roof or slate? Instead almost everyone puts up asphalt shingles. I see a lot more signs for R&G than for Glenn Roofing. Most things that touch the exterior of a home eventually wear out.
My thoughts are the biggest problem with old windows is they don't seal right anymore. They swell and don't move depending upon the humidity level. They leak air and energy out of your home. Or how about trying to clean them. Its not a good thing to sit on your window sill and hang outside. How about having to put that ladder up? They also grind old lead paint everytime you move them up and down, unless you've gotten rid of the old paint that was there. Most people haven't or they've painted over the channels where the window goes up and down to the point the window barely moves and you've got to smack it a few times just to get it to budge and inch......... Yes, I remember those days.
Tom,
Chances are if your home was middle class you could get away with a very good vinyl replacement like I did without harming look and feel of your home. Just don't consider a low end replacement. Stay away from anything that doesn't use a fusion welded frame at all four corners.
If anyone wants replacements that would be made to match your original windows I still would highly recommend Eagle. This Old House just used them in their last project in a late 1800's row house in Washington, D.C.
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tvprograms/houseproject/resources/0,16597,114237 1-Windows1~Doors~_~Hardware,00.html
Be prepared to spend a LOT for them. But you may never know they're new windows by looking at them from the outside. I would say the percentage of homes around here that would call for such windows would be less than 1%. The rest could get away with newer high quality vinyl. As Travis also posted, look for fiberglass framed windows to gain some ground in the replacement arena. Right now since the production is limited they're still a lot of coin. But eventually they'll come down due to increased competition. A few of the larger replacement companies like Kensington and others will make the investment and start to lower the costs.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12100
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:24 pm: |
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Spqr, those are nice storms. However, I imagine they are very, very pricey. Just the hooks/latches cost up to $20 per set.
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gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 378
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:25 pm: |
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decider - are they wood or metal?
Smarty - as mentioned above you can get traditional wood storms from Old Fashioned Windows in Newark or the self storing type mentioned by spqr. The traditional type are usually only in place for the heating season and of course both types do require some periodic maintenance like the main windows.
wnb - If you need the entire sash Lifetime Aluminum might be worth a try. They are in East Hanover 973-887-1900. |
gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 379
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:48 pm: |
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darren, I'll have to disagree. Ok, let's see:
$0.50/window every 30 years for sash cord.
...uh that's about it for replacement parts.
Funny, I don't remember Mr. McGuire wispering "Cotton Sash Cord" into Benjamin Braddock's ear.
How does the cost of replacements stack up? |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 907
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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gj1- I'll have to disagree...get an estimate to paint your wood windows (particuarly those with Aluminum storms, making it extremely difficult unless they are removed for the paint job altogether)....my guess is you are looking at $100 per window, every 7 years or so. My guess, by the way, is extremely accurate given I've estimated several thousand homes for exterior painting in a prior life.
That's a heck of a lot more than a $0.50 sashcord.
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gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 380
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:11 pm: |
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Smarty, the question was about industry motivation to push a particular product.
Anyway, though it's been two years, Rutgers charged $50/window. |
Darren Say Grrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 491
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:14 pm: |
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Gj,
The cost of heating and cooling the house. Good replacements pay for themselves. Lousy ones won't. PSE&G isn't lowering their prices. Do you think they'll go up another 18% this year?
How about this. Please show me your best picture of aa old window with an aluminum storm on it. We will not see the old window, just the ugly storm.
Then I'll go out and take some shots of new vinyl windows and put them up to other windows. We can play a game of guess which one is the vinyl window. I'll even put up some ugly ones too for easy pickens. |
wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 444
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:15 pm: |
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gj1, thanks for the tip -- it's not just broken glass but some of the entire panels that are missing and need to be replaced.
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Spqr
Citizen
Username: Spqr
Post Number: 108
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:23 pm: |
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Bob K, I haven't started pricing those particular windows yet, but yes, I imagine they are expensive. However, given that installation of these storms is easier than installation of a replacement, I should see considerable savings since I will be the labor. So given that the cost of the storm is below the $500 that I have seen quoted as an average cost of replacement including labor, I should see savings over full replacement, plus the added benefit of preserving the look of my house. I will keep you posted when I have a price. |
kevin
Supporter
Username: Kevin
Post Number: 790
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:25 pm: |
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Over 30 years most windows have been neglected - in addition to the sash cord....
To rehab the windows properly:
disassemble
sand/scrape to get rid of the multiple layers of paint
plane to square
re-weight if necessary due to the wood that has worn away from sliding up and down over the years and from sanding/planing to make them square again.
replace parting beads if necessary
repair/replace pulleys and related hardware
realign locks and stops
repair the trim from disassembly
painting (as Smarty says)
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gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 381
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:38 pm: |
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Again, darren was trying to compare the window repair industry (hardly exists) to the replacement window industry (HUGE) in regard to motivation to push a particular product.
No doubt there can be much labor involved Kevin, but you gave a pretty thorough list and the only things you need to purchased are: cord, parting beads, paint. Combined, these total maybe $5 - $10/window.
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Darren Say Grrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 492
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:58 pm: |
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Time is money. |
Travis
Citizen
Username: Travis
Post Number: 462
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
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Quote:When we do work on the house, in the demolition process,....
Time for a thread on why you should not replace plaster with drywall.  |
Dobler88
Citizen
Username: Dobler88
Post Number: 114
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 6:21 pm: |
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I am inspired to rehab--thanks!!
Also, I think I have very original storms on my front large window. I leave it on year round--it looks nice and it is wood frame.
As for the rest of the windows--I have no storms at all--and my PSEG bill is totally reasonable. I really can't say enough about my old windows, but maybe it's just me....every other old place I have lived in required the old "weatherstripping" plastic around them to prevent drafts. yet these are airtight...
maybe everyone should paint their windows shut to avoid drafts  |
Arsenal
Citizen
Username: Arsenal
Post Number: 94
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 8:12 am: |
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Concerning wooden storms. From what I understand you need to take them down during the summer, store them, and then put them back in the winter. So you need a lot of space and help since they are very heavy. When I spoke to Mr. Black, I forget which one helped us out, he said he has installed a couple of wooden storms in and around Maplewood and he is called back twice a year to install and remove them.
Naturally he is a firm beliver that the original windows are better then anything available in the market today.
As an related subject matter where should the weep holes be in the storms? Mine have all been painted shut and I was thinking of re-opening them but have no idea where to start. I think they are supposed to be 3/8 in size, but how long and how many? |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 920
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 8:18 am: |
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So this number that people call Mr. Black on to remove storms, is this a super-secret hotline that he actually answers, that only the select few are privy to?
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Spqr
Citizen
Username: Spqr
Post Number: 109
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:41 am: |
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The wooden storms that I referred to by Spencerworks are meant to stay in place once they are installed. The have a screen and sliding window panes integrated into the wood frame much like aluminum storm windows - so no need to remove and store them each season. |
Arsenal
Citizen
Username: Arsenal
Post Number: 95
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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Not sure if its super secret. I suppose it was part of the deal when he set them up with the storms in the first place. |
Star Princess
Citizen
Username: Star_princess
Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:03 am: |
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Just got back from Old Fashioned Windows in Newark. This place is great folks. They make wood windows, wood storm windows, wood screen doors, wood storm doors, etc.!!!!
Example of prices - wood casement window sash with 6 true divided lights less than $200! Cellar sash less than $100.00!
Re: seasonal ups and downs of storm/screen windows. Yep that's what you do but if you just add it to your list of things to do - not a bad job. Just up and down ladders.
One of the benefits of the storm windows from Spencer Works is that they are a 3 track storm window - all you have to do iis slide up the bottom window and there's a screen. Soooo once you have them up - they stay up all year round. |
themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 3085
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:51 am: |
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Wood casement window? What good is that to anyone?
"Yep that's what you do but if you just add it to your list of things to do - not a bad job. Just up and down ladders. "
...carrying a heavy storm window. And of course moving the ladder to each window. And storing all the windows. Sounds awesome. My to do list isn't nearly long enough when it comes to home maintenance. |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 738
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:01 pm: |
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Wow, Star Pincess, thanks for the tip about the Newark store!! |
Travis
Citizen
Username: Travis
Post Number: 465
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:41 pm: |
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Quote:Wood casement window? What good is that to anyone?
Casements are much better at air-sealing than double-hungs.
Do they use low-e glass? |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12129
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:10 pm: |
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Changing out the wooden storms and screens twice a year isn't a lot of fun. When I was in high school we had them on a house we lived in and I still remember all the fun of washing the windows and lugging them up from the basement to the third floor and then putting them out through the window and catching them on the latches, pulling them in and attaching the hooks to the eyebolts at the bottom. Those suckers are heavy as well. Oh, I almost forgot, they have to be painted every few years as well. |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 675
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:27 pm: |
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Star Princess: Thanks from me as well. I've already called them! (I need a custom wood storm door and I haven't been satisfied with my options thus far. I hope this works out.............sounds good! |
Spqr
Citizen
Username: Spqr
Post Number: 110
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:30 pm: |
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Star Princess, does Old Fashioned Windows have a product similar to that of Spencerworks? |
gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 382
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:58 pm: |
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spqr - Old Fashioned Windows makes traditional storms and screens that need to be changed out for summer/winter. This really is not that big of a deal. |
Spqr
Citizen
Username: Spqr
Post Number: 111
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 5:20 pm: |
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Thanks for the info gj1. I have 30 windows on two floors plus 3 more in the attic. I'm not sure what you're referring to as really not that big of a deal. But if I have an option to install wood storms that have integrated screens and tracked window panes that will be permanent much like the aluminum ones except better looking or changing and storing storm windows and screens twice a year, I think I'll look into the more permanent option. But I whole heartedly support anyone who goes for the twice a season window change option - mental and emotional support that is, I won't be getting on the ladder with anyone. |
wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 449
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 2:22 pm: |
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If anyone cares to follow this little subthread, Lifetime Aluminum says they cannot construct replacement storm window panels for existing frames. They will only sell you complete new storm window units. I am going to have to lose a lot more panels before I replace all these storm windows!
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