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Eire
Citizen
Username: Eire
Post Number: 201
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 1:13 pm: | 
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Yeah. So anyway....
Got a humidex. Got sump and french drain on one side when we had some water come into the basement - never really figured out how the water was coming in - we were just away for the week after all that rain - came home to a big circle of mold (thought our daughter had spilled something green!) right in the middle of the carpet - RIGHT in front of the humidex! Our basement floor is a rollercoaster and has all kinds of cracks, etc...
We thought, but were talked out of, the possibility that water was actually shooting up through the cracks in the basement slab, but it really feels like that's what's happening now. I'm guessing, though I'll certainly call Gary Gregori, (any other recs? Bonded?) to ask - that we'll have to replace the slab floor, or cover it...
Has anyone had to do this? Do we have to rip up the old floor to put in the new, or do we just cover it with new cement?
Any ideas welcome and appreciated!! |
Darren Say Grrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 480
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 5:38 pm: |
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Did you check the condition of your gutters and are the downspouts taking the water away from your home? Also if you have underground drains are they clear? If they're clear are the functioning properly and moving the water far enough from you home?
Your gutters are usually the first place you should look and the cause of most water issues around the house.
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SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 461
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 7:07 pm: |
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Water will come up through cracks of basement slab, like geysers if pressure and volume is enough. If you have french drain on only one side that might not take care of the whole basement.
You could check in with Quality First Basement (google them, Perth Amboy, I think) and see what you think about them before ripping out the whole basement. |
MittenReckitt
Citizen
Username: Mittenreckitt
Post Number: 79
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 9, 2006 - 12:21 am: |
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I had a good experience with Bonded - they French Drained/Sump Pumped the entire perimeter.
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Politicalmon
Citizen
Username: Politicalmon
Post Number: 200
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 1:34 pm: |
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Take Darren's advice, I had the same problem until I made sure the gutters and downspouts were clearly taking the water to the street. Now our sub-pump never engages, before it was constantly running - the key is getting the rainwater out to the street - ASAP |
Ibeme
Citizen
Username: Ibeme
Post Number: 68
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:32 pm: |
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The thing to keep in mind is that cement is a pourous material. Water will penetrate it eventually. The right way to do a basement is to take up the entire slab, put in a french drain, sumps, generators, put gravel down with plastic sheeting overtop then pour a new slab. As you can guess, it ain't cheap. I'm about to do this in my basement within the next three months. My life will definitely be interesting, as we're also planning on doing a new kitchen extension and all new baths. I'm sure I have a lot to look forward to. Hopefully my marriage stays intact. |
Former Cowgirl
Citizen
Username: Formercowgirl
Post Number: 143
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 7:59 am: |
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can anyone offer a ballpark figure on reflooring the basement and putting in french drains? I'm thinking cracks in our slab might be the problem... |
Eire
Citizen
Username: Eire
Post Number: 211
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:15 am: |
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I can't - all I can say is that Gary Gregori said it's really expensive - he actually recommended just getting some self-leveling cement to even out the slab, then getting a waterproof pad under the carpet (we have a spongy pad which for obvious reasons is VERY BAD) -- but I think he recommended that because ripping out the whole floor would mean having to redo what he had already done. |
Politicalmon
Citizen
Username: Politicalmon
Post Number: 213
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 9:47 pm: |
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Did you make sure the water running out of the downspouts is actually making it to the street and not absorbing into you house perimeter and into your foundation?
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davidbuckley
Citizen
Username: Davidbuckley
Post Number: 675
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 7:51 pm: |
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Ibeme:
When you say "generators" what are you referring to specifically? Whole or partial house backup electricity?
Thanks and contract well, all.
David |
Eire
Citizen
Username: Eire
Post Number: 214
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 7:54 pm: |
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Ibeme, I'd be interested to hear about the estimate for all that work -- I do have someone coming to look at gutters within the next few days... we had a company basically put up new gutters when we moved in (not happy with them, pl if you want more info)... |
Former Cowgirl
Citizen
Username: Formercowgirl
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:52 am: |
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After having Scrub Systems come out and look at our basement (and recommend commercial dehumidifiers, scarfing old paint off the floor and some patch work), I gather that the cost of french drains is about $10,000. Is this what the rest of you have heard?
Also, does anyone else has a commercial dehumidifier for their basement and do you know about how much they cost? I'm just trying to price shop before I commit.
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Former Cowgirl
Citizen
Username: Formercowgirl
Post Number: 145
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:55 am: |
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Eire: just re-read your original message.
Our moisture problem DOES seem to stem from beneath the floor. In our case, the problem is old paint that does not allow any water pressure through and has since caused major slab cracks and occasional mold. It's a pity that we just spent a lot of money buying epoxy paint to cover up all this and the recommendation we received from Scrub Systems is to scarf the old paint, patch the floor and if we want to paint over, to use semi-ermeable paint, to allow room for the pressure.
This might be your problem too? Do you have epxoy paint or waterproof paint on your floors? |
Eire
Citizen
Username: Eire
Post Number: 217
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:27 pm: |
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We have a humidex - which is supposed to suck out the humidity and kick it outside - it's on ALL the time in the summer - seems to work well, but won't solve a water problem if you have a water problem
No paint on the floors, but they're a mess and need patching, can see dirt floor in some spots - then have spongy carpet pad, which, of course is ridiculous, and carpet on top of that...
May try the self-leveling stuff -- and see how that goes... |
J L Bryant
Citizen
Username: Jeffbryant
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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Eire, Cowgirl... if water IS entering from hydrostatic pressure under the floor slab, pls understand that NO paint, coating, patching, or self-levelling (cementitous) product will survive the constant pulsing of that water over time. The only absolute solution is that water -as it rises- must be collected (piped drainage system) and removed (via evacuating pump). Otherwise, ANYTHING on the surface of your floor will eventually fracture, bubble, spall, crack, pop, etc. etc. In fact, over a long time, even the concrete floor would fail (ok, maybe a really REALLY long time). That recommendation from Scrub Systems of a semi-permiable paint to allow "room for the (water) pressure" is totally ludicrous and I'm surprised they'd even say that.
The earlier postings on redirecting the leaders is crucial counsel, as is keeping gutters clear. There is no fix/substitute for proper routing of and maintenance of storm water controls. So, if that's all in order.... and you still have water coming in (or up) after heavy storms, then it has to be collected and drained (as one approach per Ibeme).
As for extensive basement water remediation costs (noted or asked throught this thread), depending on the given solution, one is easily into a $5K - $10K+ range. More simply, fixes are the thousands, certainly not hundreds for effort like this.
Which is why starting with the gutters & leaders is really important; the water shouldn't GET to or under the foundation. The French-drain fix, as the typical, cure-all solution, is fundamentally flawed because water is brought to INTERIOR before being discharged, when it should never be allowed to get there in the first place. Making certain the exterior route of storm water is working (gutters, leaders, underground drain lines, exterior foundation waterproofing, perimeter foundation drains...) must be assured.
But.... if one still gets water in the basement thereafter..... then (sadly) you must collect it & get it out. Or just live with mold, or dampness, or broken slabs, or cracks, or the indoor skim-board arena.....
but believe me, this 'rant' is actually a sympathic note because I've got the same dilemma. Epoxy-painted floors, sub-surface water after storms, heaved & spalled paint all over, NO wall infiltration as the culprit. Installed new gutters & leaders, cleared underground drains, had additional yard-drainage trenches installed (to inhibit water from reaching foundation).... much MUCH better basement conditions after storms now (and used to get 1/2" regularly). Yet, still get very VERY minor intrusion from under slab pressure. So....just not so keen on performing the slab drainage system. Only solution; just not right time. But I do sympathize.
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Former Cowgirl
Citizen
Username: Formercowgirl
Post Number: 149
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 6:50 pm: |
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JL: Out of curiosity: did you do the investigation and subsequent gutter work, etc. on your own or hire someone?
I love my S.O. dearly, but I do not see him taking the time to understand this issue or remediate it on own. Is this something a waterproofing company does? IS this something a handyman could do?
I don't have the $$$ or want to spend the $$$ on something that's easy enough for a layperson to do and if I wasn't enormously pregnant, I'd prob figure it out and do it myself...but in the meantime, any suggestions? |
Fotboat
Citizen
Username: Fotboat
Post Number: 64
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:33 pm: |
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Has anyone tried the Thermaldry Basement tiles in the basement. It's plastic tiles that raise the floor 3/8", which has channels for the water/dampness to collect/run. You can then put carpet on top of the tiles |
J L Bryant
Citizen
Username: Jeffbryant
Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:44 pm: |
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Cowgirl - I've done the "diagnosis/investigation" aspects myself; had the physical installations (gutters, yard drainage, clearing drains) hired out, just directed their efforts. Listened to/had-them-explain their approach to implementing..... but worked with them (roofers, landscapers) to achieve what I wanted as the actual solutions (for ex. .. roofer wanted to run gutter pitching one direction, I wanted it the other way & relocate the leader. He said ok, & charged me for the new [wider] gutter and only relocating the existing [sound] leader.)
If your s.o. is willing to stand in the basement when it rains (well, slightly after, so the buildup occurs) to literally wait and see where your water is coming in from...... then he can diagnose (i.e. -observe symptoms) whats going on. As for solving it.... if he's into these things, then he can determine a solution.
Yes, a waterproofing company CAN perform such services for you, as can a handyman (if he's versed in this topic). But (and I don't mean to lecture) you -as owners- need to decide what you want. And what you're willing to pay for, whether it's your own time or hiring out (cause both ways 'cost'). Do you want the total 'never-have-to-worry-about-it' solution, or do you want a patch? Or even just live with it (and vacuum up after storms...)? Are you going to live there forever? There's a lot of ways you can go, and it depends on what you wish to do.
The best advice I can offer I think at the moment is aggressively fix/address the exterior water controls (gutters, plantings, yard drainage) because that you CAN do incrementally either yourselves or have done. And each exterior thing you do should result in less water showing up, even if it's really exclusively from hydrostatic pressure (below the slab).
If I can help.... or you'd like to chat more about it, I think you can send me a note directly (if I understand this msg boards' capabilities). Be happy to help.
Jeff |
Travis
Citizen
Username: Travis
Post Number: 466
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 8:56 pm: |
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I'd echo the suggestion to deal with the water outside first of all. Gutters are relatively easy, proper grading of the ground around the house also, external French drains where necessary. Eventually you may also need internal French drains if you have a high water table.
The problem with only using internal French drains is that you are not dealing with the damage that storm water is doing to your house. This includes erosion of ground under the footings, and hydrostatic pressure that can cause the collapse of cinder block foundation walls. This happened big time in South Jersey a while back when a bunch of McMansions just had the internal French drains.
The other issue you have to deal with is moisture coming up through the floor, due to the fact that these old houses do not have vapor barriers in their basement floors. There is a tutorial on finishing your basement at www.buildingscience.com that shows how this can be retrofitted with a floating plywood floor on top of styrofoam and a polyethylene vapor barrier. The styrofoam is to prevent condensation, another source of mold. As with all of these things, the tricky part to getting it right is in the details.
Oh yeah, all sump pits should be sealed. |
J L Bryant
Citizen
Username: Jeffbryant
Post Number: 18
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:34 am: |
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Fotboat - the product you mention is also similar to Dricore, [ www.dricore.com ] which is 2'x2' plywood over a plastic raised-nib underside, to provide water passage beneath too. Positive solution, if one can lose basement floor-ceiling height & remember, any system like this must direct that water to a drain or sump....
Travis - minor "terminology" point. The term 'French drain' is only an internal water control method/system. Exterior systems are 'house drains' or 'perimeter drains' or 'foundation drains'. But your note cites solid info, especially emphasizing (again) that storm water must be directed away from any structure. (& the collapses you referred to are hardly isolated in the Pine Barrens, they're all over; besides so. jersey takes enough ribbing already  ) |
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