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Bill Werbaneth
Citizen
Username: Billw
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:50 pm: | 
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Recently moved into our house in Maplewood. As with other houses in the area, it has a few years under its belt - 80 or so to be exact. So of course it needs a few updates. As we begin to examine the jobs that need to be done (and thinking about ones that we might like to have redone but are not necessary for the house to function) they start adding up. So one viable option that's been suggested to us is taking the inside of the house down to the studs--that it actually might be cheaper to do this than to do each job separately.
Has anyone here done this? Completely gutted the inside of their house and started fresh? I'm assuming we'd need to move out of our house while this is all going on. Opinions, thoughts, derisions, applause welcome. Thanks for you input! |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12122
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:16 am: |
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..and then you end up with a new house inside an old house, complete with Princeton moldings instead of the original chestnut, prefinished flooring instead of the original old growth oak and heart pine floors, sheetrock instead of plaster walls,etc.
Why not just buy a new house in the first place?
I know this sounds harsh and I can see the temptation, but it would be impossible to duplicate the materials that were used eighty years ago. The plus is that it is easier to redo the plumbing and electric, and you will probably be required to bring these items up to current codes, not a bad thing, but actually quite expensive.
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Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 916
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 7:37 am: |
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We had our plumbing and electric completely redone, without taking anything down to the studs....it was not so dramatic of a job that I left thinking we should have stripped all the walls in order to do it....
Electric took 3 days. Plumbing a week or so. |
Sherri De Rose
Citizen
Username: Honeydo
Post Number: 325
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 7:51 am: |
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I can't imagine that your walls are so bad as to actually want to have sheetrock walls. They are horrible. The slightest bang from a child or chair or whatever and you end up with a ding in the wall. Plaster walls are a thing from the past that should be preserved at any cost. As for ceilings, well that's a horse of a different color. If your ceilings are really bad those could be swapped out for sheetrock. (But a tremendous mess and also there is the cost.). Rich and I redid our entire fixer upper but maintained all the original chestnut moulding etc.
In the kitchen, we put up tongue and groove wood on the ceiling and it looks fabulous. I'd be happpy to take you through a tour of my home and the before pix so you can see what can be done.
Sherri (Honey Do List) |
Virtual It Girl
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 4735
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 8:40 am: |
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Smarty, we will have to do the same on the home we are moving in to. Who did you use and were you pleased?
Sherri, our new home has natural wood (possibly walnut, the grain is less apparent than chestnut) trim on the first floor and in the bathrooms. Gulp, I might paint the bathroom trim (and the girls' bath has dark beadboard wainscoting and ugly 70ish paneling too, so it needs freshening up.) Having always had white/off-white trim, I'm unsure how to deal with all the dark wood (and I'm forbidden to paint it!) I know it's thread drift, it's just been on my mind! I love it, I just don't want it to look too "period." |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 923
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 8:45 am: |
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When you are ready, PM me and I'll send you a complete list of who we used, and what we thought directly. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12127
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:02 am: |
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Smarty, you pulled all the old BX electric cable and replaced it with Romex and changed out all the old waste lines, including the stack?
Probably not. However, if you open the walls the building department may require that, although I am not sure about it. |
Virtual It Girl
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 4736
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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Ok, will do. You'll hear from me mid-late August! |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 924
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:32 am: |
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Yes on number 1, No on number 2. Replaced all pipes except the stacks. |
Virtual It Girl
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 4737
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:45 am: |
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Bob, we replaced the stack here. Not fun! |
Robert O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Local24
Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:45 pm: |
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This is what you need to know about your project from the town /(states) point of view. Probably the most important would be Defining the scope of work.
http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/rehab/viewbysection.shtml
Enjoy! |
Cerebrus Maximus
Citizen
Username: Xtralargebrain
Post Number: 74
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 8:17 pm: |
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Bill,
I strongly agree with Bob K. To replace plaster with sheetrock is simply tasteless and stupid. It reminds me of the traditional colonial home here in town that was recently completely covered with stucco (painted teal). Like Bob K more politely suggests, what is the point of moving into an older home if all you are going to do is cluelessly destroy all of the original charm. Let me guess, you want to tear out all of those horrible stone walls on your property and replace them with pavers. Oh and dont forget to rip out that wood paneled library. Its just such a cleaning headache.
Please move out of our community (and back to Florida or wherever it is you came from) and into a flat, treeless, vinyl clad, sheetrock laden, development with unimaginative living spaces. You will be happier there. |
Virtual It Girl
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 4742
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 8:26 pm: |
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Ouch! |
BillW
Citizen
Username: Billw
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:12 pm: |
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Wow. First time posting to Maplewood Online. I come in good faith to the community with a legitimate question and receive nothing but poop in return. Thanks for all your help and kindness. |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 1320
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 12:47 am: |
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Pay no attention to lamebrain. He or she is incapable of civility. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14990
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 1:23 am: |
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BillW, welcome, and please don't go away. Read between the lines. Besides the issues of taste, the folks are saying above that it's not really going to save you money to strip to the studs.
There are a few here who do nothing but spew, but most of us are fairly helpful, if opinionated.
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william rega
Citizen
Username: Regacontracting
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 7:42 am: |
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buying an older home is always a challange.
There is absolutly no reason to even consider gutting the entire house.
There is no way to replace the charm and beauty of an older house.
I'm sure that's what attracted you to the house in the first place.
Best advise, have someone with remodeling experience whether it be another homeowner or contractor and get their advise on how to go about restoring the house back to its original beauty. Don't look for trouble.
Believe me you'll enjoy your new home quicker.
welcome to Maplewood, N.J. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14997
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:54 am: |
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In case I didn't make it clear, to me, it's not about taste. We've been putting up sheetrock where we need new walls. For example, our house was shod in ugly tasteless paneling. It is serviceable in some rooms. It was awful in our bedroom. We took it down and found the 100+ year old plaster was in very sorry shape. So we had the room redone in sheetrock. Yeah, I guess plaster is nice, but it would have cost four or five times as much.
I just wouldn't tear down something that is working fine. I'm just going by the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy. I do understand the aesthetic and practical advantages of plaster, so I keep it where I can, but I feel I can't afford to put plaster up or do major plaster repairs.
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Agrackle
Citizen
Username: Agrackle
Post Number: 52
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
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Bill:
Ignore the rants of the few, taste is subjective. Also, had I not opened up the cracked plaster ceiling in my basement and certain of the walls on my first floor, I never would have found the structural problems that could have resulted in my home's collapse. I'm now frantically repairing. Plaster is great if it's in good condition, but there is surely a point where it makes sense to replace it.
Good luck... |
Longheadself
Citizen
Username: Longheadself
Post Number: 28
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 10:59 pm: |
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The ignorance of some astounds me.
Plaster is nice. However sheetrock has more structural integrity than lath and plaster. Imperial board (blue rock) with a 1/8" skimcoat and homosote behind it is virtually indistinguishable from a plaster and lath wall, if you get the right person to do it. This permits you to insulate your house, which was considered a passing fad 80 years ago. Whatever anybody tells you, cedar siding with a hollow wall and nothing but lath and plaster on the inside make a house much colder than if the same walls are insulated in addition to the attic. Energy efficiency is increased by insulating, quite a worthy consideration in this day and age. Existing mouldings can be stripped or duplicated by having knives made by a millworker. If you do enough of them, the price is not that bad. Floors can be protected during renovation work with masonite, repaired and refinished. Doesn't anyone watch This Old Effing House?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but denizens of Floridian tract developments do not renovate in this way, waspy wealthy New Englanders do, not that matters. Its just that the feeble attempt at classism by one of the previous posters is incredible to me.
I realize that many find taking on a project like that (down to the studs) prohibitively expensive or psychologically impossible. But to berate someone for considering it is rude and juvenile.
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Longheadself
Citizen
Username: Longheadself
Post Number: 30
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:28 pm: |
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"More structural integrity my eye!" you say. Understandable. But just ask a structural engineer, or compare an old house with lath and plaster blown by hurricane force winds with a comparable house with a sheetrocked inside....
Look at your plaster.
See those little cracks? its a more brittle material. Sheetrock has millions of fibres going every which way that make it strong. "But what about that show I saw about the WTC blaming the weakness of the sheetrock in the elevator shafts?" That sheetrock was pierced by large pieces of metal, etc. Against normal load stresses, gypsum wallboard has impressive structural integrity, superior to that of plaster on lath. OK. I'll shut up now. |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 779
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
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Longheadself, you rock! (sheetrock too! )
CM- you are a TROLL. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 2493
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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Longheadself - Thanks for posting that information. When I purchased my home in 1999 we foolishly wanted to maintain the "charm" of our first floor, despite the cracking paint and plaster. We had a plaster contractor come in and put fiberglass mesh on the walls and ceiling of our living room and dining room, imbedded in about an eighth of an inch of plaster. The walls look great and they are very strong. It wasn't cheap but it maintained the "charm" of the house and it also allowed us to keep the baseboard, crown and doorway mouldings in tact. Fast forward a few years and many renovations later and I realize what a mistake that was. We've now gutted down to the studs in the kitchen/first floor bathroom, the den, two bedrooms and our basement. The gutting allowed us to put in proper electrical(in terms of properly sized circuits), in some cases replacing completely rusted junction boxes, put in proper recepticles (wall mounted rather than baseboard mounted) replace poorly mounted lighting fixtures and add insulation.
We took two pieces of our two-piece moulding to a mill and had knives made so that we can now have moulding made whenever we want it. And I have peace of mind in knowing that the electrical work is up to code and is appropriate for the load it will be carrying. Plus I can't stress enough how much warmer our house is with the correct insulation in the walls. In fact our basement is now warmer than our living room
The cost of repairing or re-installing plaster is prohibitive - just a small room (8 x 11) would have cost over 4K to re-plaster as compared to a few hundred dollars in sheetrock. You can guys can keep the charm of plaster if you'd like but me...from now on its nothing but sheetrock. Now I'm just trying to get up enough courage to have the walls in the dining room and living room taken down, but that a job for next year. |
Darren Say Grrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 499
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:15 pm: |
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Yeah, and when you're keeping your charming old plaster walls make sure you keep your charming old windows too!
Oh crap! Now that did not just come out of my mouth, did it? Ooops.  |
gj1
Citizen
Username: Gj1
Post Number: 384
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 1:18 pm: |
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darren - I'm finally getting to you, huh? 
If you are completely renovating a kitchen or bath with bad plaster, by all means gut it and replace with drywall. But there is no reason to rip out plaster in good condition just to insulate or do electrical.
BTW sports, there's nothing improper about baseboard mounted receptacles. They are code compliant and are much preferred IMO. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 2494
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 1:58 pm: |
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Gj1 - I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply that they weren't code. However, I'm not sure they're aesthetically better than wall mounted ones.
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george H
Citizen
Username: Georgieboy
Post Number: 251
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 2:02 pm: |
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While its true that older homes possess charms that are hard to find in todays Mcmansion/cookie cutter type of developments,sometimes form needs to cede to function in regards to updating not only wiring,but more important in this time of higher energy costs,insulation.While it is all well and good to want to retain original details of period houses,practicality sometimes dictate otherwise.Personal taste is one of the few things that has'nt been legislated [yet]and financial considerations definitely come into play.I'm not advocating vinyl siding on a shingle/clapboard style house,but do think you can reach a place where you can make your home a comfortable refuge,even with using today's materials/techniques.Not for nothing,in most cases we're not talking Frank Lloyd Wright designed homes,just well built,tastefully designed structures,perfect for raising a family and/or growing old in. |
wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 462
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 2:09 pm: |
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Vertical walls are an insigificant source of heat loss in a structure compared to roof, windows, and doors. You will do well make sure the attic is well insulated and that the windows and doors are all well sealed with no drafts before even considering such action for insulation purposes.
It brings up another sore point, but replacing your windows, if they are very drafty, will do more towards heating efficiency than insulating your exterior walls.
As for electrical, I find it hard to believe a complete demolition of all walls and ceilings to the studs would be necessary to effectively upgrade electrical wiring.
Finally, I just don't see where the benefits of doing all this proposed work would justify the time, expense, and mess.
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Longheadself
Citizen
Username: Longheadself
Post Number: 36
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:08 pm: |
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If you run wiremold on the surface, sure. But what's in the wall? BX or knob and tube? Circuits can be killed inside walls, but alot of these houses have one or two outlets per room, which is not code. Grandfathered in you say. Could be you're right, but consider the reason for this rule: extension cords are one of the leading causes of house fires. When you're adding outlets the walls have to be chopped and then patched,unless you use wire mold,surface mounted conduit, or flex as I've been recently told. All three are butt ugly. This brings me to my next point: load balancing. Alot of old houses might have several rooms or even different floors on the same circuit, nothing labeled on the panel, etc., etc. If you feed one outlet with another, it is very hard to figure out what else might share that circuit, the consequence being your computer goes off when your spouse turns on the vaccuum cleaner and you lose your morning's work. You can run conduit up the side of the house, but that is usually best done by bringing up one pipe to a subpanel, and then channeling in or snaking the branch circuits. In conclusion, you can rewire a house without ripping out your walls, sure, but to do the job right will probably require lots of patching, which in turn can lead to plaster cracking. Usually replacing plumbing can be localized to specific areas, but then those areas, too, must be patched. Of course insulating an attic is more important than insulating vertical walls. But if you think a 1920's un-insulated wall is going to keep you as warm as one with insulation inside of it, you're not being honest with yourself. Just put your hand on the middle of one of your plaster walls at midnight this coming February and see how warm it feels. What about blown in cellulose? Settles. Polyurethane foam? Expensive, "glues in" contents of wall such as pipes, etc. Thats why people still remove walls to insulate them. As I said before, if you are not psychologically prepared for the dust (like my wife) or financially able (like my wife and myself) to take out your plaster, DON'T. I'm just laying out the "what for"s. |
wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 463
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 4:28 pm: |
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My point was not that an uninsulated vertical wall would be just as efficient as an insulated one -- only that, if the windows and doors are drafty, insulating the walls will have negligible effect. Sealing up windows and doors properly, without insulating the walls, would have significant effect. Adding insulation to those walls, finally, would have some marginal, but not a profound, additional improvement.
Case in point: place your bare hand on the exterior wall that same February midnight, and see what you feel. It ain't going to be warm.
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