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HKing
Citizen
Username: Hking
Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:10 am: | 
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My husband posted several weeks ago (and so the thread is now in the archive). Basic situation: big attic window unit needs new circuit. It gets run all the way from attic to basement breaker box.
An electrician recommended on this board came out and took a look. Our breaker box in the basement is already over-subscribed (my word). It has 24 and should only have 20. So, he definitely can't add another circuit and would need to add a subpanel to put the new circuit on and would also move over the offending 4 from the existing box.
The other thing is that if we're doing the work -- why not go to 200 AMP? In talking about it with him, it doesn't seem that there is an overwhelming need to do it. However, in reading the archives on this board, it seems that most people go to 200 when they put in the central AC. We have central air on our main floor but they didn't go to 200 AMP when they put it in.
Anyone have any strong opinions on 200 vs 100 AMP? If we want to add a 2nd frigdge & deep freeze a garbage disposal and some other things like that, does it significantly change the picture?
Another interesting tidbit is that another MOL-recommended electrician certified that everything in our house was A-OK prior to our closing. They were hired by seller....but it appears everything was not exactly up to par. |
J L Bryant
Citizen
Username: Jeffbryant
Post Number: 9
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:48 am: |
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If you're considering such additional electrical loads (freezer, 2nd fridge, etc., etc.) it would be very prudent to increase your capacity to 200 amps. In fact, it may even be that simple math that would show that an increase (add all existing loads + intended = whether the existing 100amps even suffices ~ but have the electrician verify!!!) is unavoidable.
As for the 'not-up-to-par' system condition being rated acceptable by a seller-hired electrician...... there's really no question there, is there? Whose interests was he serving? If things were really REALLY unsafe (and I hestitate to use 'illegal' or 'not-code compliant'), he would have cited it and fixed it, you can be sure. But 'not exactly up to par' ? Ever buy a used car? A used anything? Like anything one owns, a home (used or new) is a responsibility that a owner/buyer must assume & "know/learn" about. But it's lots of fun !!! |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12179
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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We are wrestling with the same situation.
We had concerns about the electric in the house we purchased when during the home inspection the dishwasher tripped the circuits. The owner corrected the overloaded circuit and we had an electrician look at it.
We had central air installed and they had to use a sub panel because of the 20 in the box situation with 100 amp service. At that point we decided not to update to 200amp as we had enough capacity for the central air. However, we don't have any spare circuits. If we want to add anything significant, we are going to have to upgrade, but it isn't a pressing need.
If you are going to be adding additional loads in the near future it probably makes sense to upgrade now and avoid the cost of a subpanel.
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rssounds
Citizen
Username: Rssounds
Post Number: 389
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 1:10 pm: |
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Don't bother with a sub panel, upgrade to a 200 amp 42 space Square D panel. It will help your resale if and when you move. All new construction is built with 200 amps minimum. 100 amps is insufficient for the modern world of electronics, computers, appliances and central air. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1915
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 9:17 pm: |
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But keep in mind 200 amp doesn't do you any good if you don't also do new wiring to the box to take advantage of it. When you get a new 200 amp panel, they don't rewire your entire house to make an optimal connection. They just give you the ability to have 200 amp service for future upgrades.
So if you've got six rooms on the same circuit, you're still going to have that arrangement after you upgrade to 200 amp, unless you take additional (and more expensive) steps.
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NJguy99
Citizen
Username: Njguy99
Post Number: 57
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:04 am: |
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My circa-1941 home has 100 amp service - and central air, and two large refrigerators, and two computers, and multiple TVs - and it's just fine.
The fact your panel is full does not mean your amperage load is maxed out.
Most fridges draw about 10 amps. C/A draws about 20. A 60 watt light bulb only draws about half an amp.
It's very possible that you have a 10 or 15 amp circuit feeding a bedroom or two. That may be overkill, and you may be able to "free up" amperage by evaluating the actual draw on each circuit. This is probably what your electrician noticed when he checked the situation out.
So, walk around the house, counting up appliances and other things that use electricity, and then go look at the panel. Do a rough calculation - (1 fridge x 10 amps + 1 C/A x 20 amps +....) - and I'm fairly certain you'll come up with less than 100 amps of usage.
If your garage was full, you wouldn't knock it down and start from scratch - you'd either clean it out (evaluating the load and rearranging circuits) or rent a storage locker (adding a subpanel). That's exactly what your electrician seems to have recommended.
But, for heaven's sake, don't just get one evaluation/estimate. Call 2 or 3 electricians and see what they say. It's worth the extra time and effort to make sure this kind of upgrade is done right.
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mrmaplewood
Citizen
Username: Mrmaplewood
Post Number: 374
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 1:16 pm: |
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Agree with CMonty. I upgraded my service, but did not rewire the house. Now I wonder why I needed the upgrade because the original wiring in the house is done on basically four circuits which remain. Of course I have added extra lines for air conditioning as installed, but the real answer would be to rewire and add extra outlets (at great cost). |
tb0010
Citizen
Username: Tb0010
Post Number: 31
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 1:47 pm: |
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Regardless of whether to go 100 or 200 amp, the issue of wiring in the 60 - 90 year old houses that predominate Maplewood is a serious issue. We have a friend of ours in town whose house burned down about 6 wks ago because of a defect in the original wiring.
And unless your wiring was replaced recently, consider it suspect. In our 80-yr old house, we first had the Federal Pacific panel replaced with a Square D box. Then we had the electrician prowl. And what we found was a mishmash of handyman shortcuts, like an outlet in the wall installed without the required metal housing. Imagine -- we were running an AC in that outlet for a summer and are lucky we never had a fire.
When we had our kitchen upgraded, we had the walls stripped and found some pretty appalling cuts and splices underneath.
The moral of the story is: (1) make sure your panel is safe (2) make sure the wiring is safe and then (3) figure out how much amperage you need. It may cost a few thousand to open the outlets and have the fixes done, but it sure beats replacing every last possession after a blaze (no matter how generous your insurer is).
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kevin
Supporter
Username: Kevin
Post Number: 808
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 3:00 pm: |
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What is the cost difference between upgrading to a new 100amp box and 200amp service?
You might want to consider upgrading some of your older energy inefficient appliances. The energy star appliances will draw much less juice, keep your loads in check, and reduce your monthly energy bill.
Before I purchased my house, the previous homeowner upgraded the box, put a sub panel in the garage, but kept the 100amp service. I am not sure why they didn't upgrade to 200amp service, but it must have been a cost issue for them. All of the appliances are energy star rated and I have never had any issues with the breakers.
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HKing
Citizen
Username: Hking
Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 3:34 pm: |
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It's about $1800 to upgrade to 200 AMP. About $600 ish to just add a sub-panel and stay 100 AMP.
The previous owners updated everything. All new appliances. We bought window units for 2nd floor/attic are all new and energy efficient (this summer).
I'm going to call and get another opinion. I think some of our wiring is newer -- we have a new kitchen that was all run directly to the breaker box in the basement. Only lights on the fuse sub-panel on the main floor. Only real problem is one bedroom and finished attic are all on one 15 amp circuit going to 2nd floor fuse sub-panel but that's what we'll fix when we get the attic A/C its own circuit. So, I think we're in pretty good shape. We just don't have any more room on the exisitng breaker box for a new circuit. (But, I'll definitely check the smoke detectors before I go to bed tonight. :-).
Oh...and lights blink when A/C comes on..but I've heard that's common. :-) Electrician said that may or may not be fixed by the 200 AMP upgrade.
I am going to call out the seller's electrician and get a 2nd estimate. They are well-respected around here and so I kind-of want to see what they say. |
tb0010
Citizen
Username: Tb0010
Post Number: 32
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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Lights blinking when the AC come on can be fixed by putting the AC on its own circuit. |
Richard Kessler
Citizen
Username: Richiekess
Post Number: 164
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 9:08 pm: |
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We put a lot into our house in the 18 months we have owned it: repaired a burned out outlet and wire in the wall, replaced a Federal Pacific 100amp service panel, had two new outlets added for two room air conditioners, had another problem repaired that involved finding a living room sonce outlet that had been sealed up long ago and was causing problems, and, I checked virtually every outlet in the house to see if it was properly installed, finding that many were not grouned properly--grounded at all actually with the ground wire not attached to the box. At any rate, it took a great deal of time and money, but we did decide to not upgrade to 200amp--did not feel it was necessary and a couple of electricians agreed, even if we add central air later on. |
Jgberkeley
Citizen
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 4616
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 10:49 pm: |
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"Most fridges draw about 10 amps. C/A draws about 20. A 60 watt light bulb only draws about half an amp."
Ahhh, that is not correct. A 100 Watt light bulb does draws just less than a half of an Amp. However, Fridges and A/C's draw what they draw. My Fridge is currently running and drawing 1.3 amps. Each are different and have a start draw and a run draw.
The advice you are getting on upgrading is correct. What is the point if you are not re-wiring the entire house to split the existing loads, then add the new load?
If all you want is to add the SPACE for a new breaker, then a sub panel will do that for you, or pay the money for split breakers. Expensive but in the space of one breaker you can have two legal and safe circuits.
I have also seen homes re-wired to have a 200 amp panel. However, the electric company never re-wired the line to the pole to support 200 amps. So the house was still at 100 amps to the pole.
That makes a lot of sense.
Later
George
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