| Author | Message | ||
     Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 1042 Registered: 10-2005  |
If they went down to the wood, and they DID prime, then paint, and you're SURE they primed, and they did a good job, then, pray tell, whom did you use? | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 1043 Registered: 10-2005 |
I'm talkin' exterior jobs. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12527 Registered: 5-2001 |
It is hard to believe that a painter would skip that step and equally hard to believe that a homeowner wouldn't notice if the primer coat was missed. Is this common? | ||
| Richard Kessler Citizen Username: Richiekess Post Number: 200 Registered: 11-2004 |
Rutgers did exactly that. | ||
| Darren Say Grrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Darrensager Post Number: 532 Registered: 11-2001 |
Why am I not in the least surprised this happens. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1398 Registered: 5-2003 |
We used Rutgers. They sanded the house down to bare wood, applied two coats of primer and two top coats. Three years later the house still looks beautiful. | ||
| Darren Say Grrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Darrensager Post Number: 533 Registered: 11-2001 |
Ok, let me explain my reason for thinking I'm not surprised. Painting companies are in business to do one thing, make money. Some have created a decent reputation from their early work in the past, however one cannot believe that a paint job can only last about 7 years. Paint manufacturers warranty their paint longer than that. I'm sure that these companies want your repeat business, not just a one time job. If they show up and do a decent job, chances are you'll be calling them again when your paint starts to fall off or look dingy. I asked the painter I worked for in college (ah, there is nothing like having to climb to the top of a 40 foot ladder) what was the primary reason why paint jobs fail. Two things he told me: First was your prep job. If you prepped the job properly, AND PRIMED with a good oil based primer, the job would last 3 times as long IF you did part two. Wash your home. Dirt he said kills the paint. Make sure you wash it off your home and don't let it accumulate on top of the paint. Do this and a good paint job can last 20+ years. The only paint he would use was Benjamin Moore because his reputation was on the line. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 9284 Registered: 5-2001  |
Dumb question, but how do you wash your home? | ||
| daylaborer Citizen Username: Upondaroof  Post Number: 923 Registered: 4-2003  |
"Dumb question, but how do you wash your home?" Hire a painter to pressure wash it. | ||
| Politicalmon Citizen Username: Politicalmon Post Number: 264 Registered: 9-2005  |
Lizziecat; We used Rutgers. They sanded the house down to bare wood, stated that they applied two coats of primer and two top coats. Five years later the house looks like it needs another paint job! Part of the problem is that we thought they would do the right thing but during post analysis we determined that they had cut corners and applied 1 coat of primer and a top coat the same day. In addition they used a latex based primer after I had asked for an oil based primer. Kevin will argue that the latex primer is just as good but in hindsight that is misinformation. The main reason he pushes latex is because the clean up time required is much faster and their is a cost savings since he doesn't need paint thinner for latex - water will do fine. Rutgers never again. | ||
| Richard Kessler Citizen Username: Richiekess Post Number: 201 Registered: 11-2004 |
We used Benjamin Moore, but I do have to say that the brand didn't rate very high in the latest Consumer Reports testing of exterior paints. California Paint, which rated the highest, is just too difficult to obtain in New Jersey | ||
| misshissa Citizen Username: Misshissa Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2006 |
We used Rutgers, and while they did a good job, I'm not 100% sure they applied 2 coats of either the primer or the paint....and I was home to watch during the entire job! It was easy enough to see that they coated the house with at least one coat of primer, and one coat of paint (the primer was a slightly different color than the paint), but i never saw them go over the entire house again with a 2nd coat of paint. I asked our estimator about it and he "checked the materials list" and said it was consistent with two coats...so I guess I'll never know for sure. Rutgers seems to be painting just about the entire town, so i'd like to hope that despite negative experiences with some, by and large they are reputable. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1399 Registered: 5-2003 |
Well, I'm sure that Rugers applied two coats of primer and two top coats because I watched. As did my husband. It's been three years now--husband says four--and the house looks freshly painted. I would use them again, absolutely. The length of time that a paint job lasts depends on a lot of variables--exposure to the elements, severity of winter and summer, amount of sun, amount of rain, heat transfer from inside the house, animals, insects, mold, air pollution. | ||
| Politicalmon Citizen Username: Politicalmon Post Number: 265 Registered: 9-2005 |
Lizziecat, Perhaps that was our mistake we didn't have someone to watch them apply the coats of paint. The length of time a paint job lasts is dependent a number of variables with the most important being #1 how well the surface was prepared #2 Whether quality paint is being used preferably oil based #3 The environment when the primer or paint were applied - a day like today would not be in your best interests since it would introduce moisture in between coats and this would cause premature failure. The other things you mention are moot since those variables are similar given our close geographical proximity. Your and anyone is welcome to PM me if you want to get a real look at what a Rutgers paint job looks like after 5 years perhaps it will enlighten you. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 1056 Registered: 10-2005 |
Well, I've witnessed three paint jobs on my tiny 4-house block in the last 2 years, and NONE of them was provided with a prime coat. Though the last house was finish-coated bright white, so it's hard to tell where the primer would start and the finish would end, I was particularly interesed and close to the job enough to see that they put one coat of paint up, over wood that was freshly stripped. I'm curious: Why would anyone apply 2 coats of primer? Primer is tooth for the finish, and sealer for the surface. I thought 1 coat of good primer, 2+ coats finish was a good paint job (admittedly, I'm not a pro painter!). I had World of Colors do a small strip and paint job on some windows, and they specified 1 coat primer, 2 coats finish. To their credit, the widnows got primer. To their discredit, the windows got 1 coat of finish. SO the contract stipulated significant materials and time that were just not provided. It was such a small job that I kept my mouth shut. It's the bigger future job that I'm concerned with--'cause putting 3 coats of paint on a whole house is a helluva job. THAT's worth 8,000-14,000, cutting corners isn't. | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4995 Registered: 5-2001 |
Our previous house was red, so the (tinted) primer was a lovely shade of watermelon. Everyone knew it was being primed! Lots of people use tinted primer, so unless you know the true color, you (as a passerby) might not realize it's primer. | ||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 367 Registered: 7-2004 |
Shanabana - Are you sure they're not using tinted primer rather than white primer? The standard contracts/bid forms provide info on number of coats and types of paint. You can specify what you want and it will be bid/priced accordingly. If you're able to monitor the progress/work, even better. | ||
| Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 3245 Registered: 9-2002  |
Jacek sanded, primed and painted 2 coats. One man/crew operation so book early. Pricier than the two other bids we got (one being Rutgers). Did some interior work over the winter as well. Excellent work. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 1059 Registered: 10-2005 |
So1969 and VIG: yeah, well, I'm pretty attuned to this kind of thing. Since the jobs were on my block, I wasn't passing by once a day, but rather LOOKING at the job about 5 times a day. (Okay, call me nosey!) It hadn't occured to me, though: it's possible that the clients said they just wanted to get a ceaper job, and specified less coats. Still, if I were a painting company, I'd never do an exterior paint job without doing primer. | ||
| Politicalmon Citizen Username: Politicalmon Post Number: 267 Registered: 9-2005 |
Shanabana; Which contractor did the jobs on your block? | ||
| mimi Citizen Username: Mimi Post Number: 298 Registered: 2-2005 |
second for jacek. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 1078 Registered: 10-2005 |
Politicalmon: Murphy. The jobs look good--so far. I was a little bummed that this last time they didn't cover up the stripping area with tarps (since I have little ones, and the job was right next door). Of course they had the vacuum, though. | ||
| Lance Rubin Citizen Username: Lance_rubin Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2006 |
Hi I am a professional painter. While most paint jobs last around 7-12 years on average, any paint job is only as good as the prep work done before painting. Also , it is not absolutely necessary to prime every time you paint. For example, if your house was sanded to the wood 7 years ago, then it should definately not be the time to prime the entire house UNLESS the paint is failing mechanically. Mechanical failure always gets treated, but that does not indicate that the WHOLE house paintjob is failing. Why does the paint film fail? There are many different factors. Sunlight very slowly eats away at the integrity of the painted surface, and so does water. Even worse is when water finds a way to wet the wood from an unexpected direction such as behind the wall. This does not indacate a bad paint job. Water can be diverted into unfortunate places by many things: clogged gutters, new siding that was not flashed properly, new roofing that was not flashed properly, water that hits the ground and splashes up onto the wood saturating the area much longer than the rest of the house, and many other reasons. Primer. If you pay a painter for primer, you should absolutely get primer. However primer is not absolutely necessary on the ENTIRE house unless you specify you would like the whole house primed. If your contract says "spot priming" then you will get primer where it is necessary, and no where else. That is why some houses look all splotchy and blotchy while they are being painted. There is nothing wrong with a homeowner saving money by not priming the entire house for every round of paint (but washing the house should be done every time...). It saves money. As long as the existing painted surface IS MECHANICALLY SOUND, then you do not necessarily need to prime. Tinted primer. As a painter, painting 2400 to 12,000 square feet of siding for EACH COAT takes a lot of time and work. Painters do everything in their power to utilize efficiency, and one of those things is tinting the primer!! Even better is to go ahead and get the primer the color of the finish! Sherwin Williams manufactures several paints that are actually self-priming (http://www.sherwin.com/pro/). Their Duration paint is truly durable and gorgeous stuff! Using white primer only makes the final finish coat harder to achieve especially when the color of paint does not have strong covering power. Any red or brown paint can suffer from this as the red family has the weakest coverage of all pigments. Any artist can tell you the difference between the coverage of cadmiums as opposed to alizarin pigments. Fact is you WANT your painter to tint the primer to discourage latency. Prep work. By far the most important thing in painting a house is to see to it that the underlying paint film (if it is not COMPLETELY sanded down to wood) is mechanically sound, and if not, that the loose parts are removed (sanded or stripped). When the new paint goes over this, the entire surface will become encapsulated. Any glossy surfaces should absolutely be sanded to give that surface a "tooth". Tooth by definition, are tiny microscratches that enable the new paint to hold on. Tooth can be created either mechanically (sanding) or chemically (deglossing or etching). A clear indication that the previous painter did not sand glossy surfaces is when giant swaths of paint can be pulled off of the woodwork. Another important part of prep work is that every little crack is caulked. This stops water from finding unfortunate ways behind walls or into other unwanted places that rot wood. Raw wood. If your painter sands to raw wood whether for most of the house (very very expensive) or some of the house (expensive) or only where it is absolutely necessary (affordable by comparison), then that raw wood should ABSOLUTELY get primed. The primer does not have to be an oil-based primer, but oil-based is tougher in the long run (but it is much more expensive in terms of throw away brushes rollers, clean-up, and hazardous waste disposal). Yes, that's right, those thinners (esp lacquer thinner) are very very unfriendly to you, the environment, your children, and the painters (even the neighbors in the case of sanding any house built before 1978 -- lead released in the wind from sanding). One thing I like to do to raw wood is condition it before priming even, but that treatment is very time consuming, and the materials are expensive, and mostly only used in historic preservation because of the cost (I grew up in Historic Savannah Georgia painting the grand victorians downtown... wood repair is in my blood hee hee). Back on topic, raw wood should be primed with a high quality primer such as Zinsser or Kilz (although the premium paint companies manufacture their own brands, and they are great. Check out the Sherwin Williams website, and go to the "pro" area, and look at the products. It might make your head swim, but they are all great.) Sanding to the wood...or not? You cannot sand to the wood every time you paint! If you do, you will be replacing siding pretty often, and the integrity of your siding will be compromised. I think many Maplewood residents are obsessed with taking it to the wood, and honestly, as a painter it is not always necessary. For the painting company, it means "get comfortable fellas, we're going to take our time and make some money on this one" (it IS very hard and hazardous work after all). What I am hearing in this thread is very common. Bottom Line. If your paint job lasts 3 years (I'm working on one of those right now in River Vale, NJ (done by the homeowner, no doubt), then the job was not very high quality. Does that mean it is the contractor's fault? Well, not necessarily. But on the other hand it might! It may have been spec'd for affordability and not longevity. For instance, spending lots to sand to the wood and prime beautifully, and then the homeowner buys Sears paint ($9.99 a gallon on sale for Labor Day right now! Don't believe me? Check it out yourself... http://www.sears.com) to save money is definately a BAD idea. As a matter of fact, if the homeowner buys the paint, I charge more to put it on, and will NOT warrantee it. Actually, most painters will do the same IF they will even USE the homeowner paint in the first place. BTW, the Home Depot Behr brand is junk. Anyway, if your paintjob lasts 3 years, call the company and complain. You should have gotten a warrantee from them anyway. Any respectable paintjob should last 7-12 years, and if you are lucky maybe 15. Final summary 1) See to it that you get the primer you spec'd for the job, but check if it is tinted, or that they are not using self-priming Sherwin Williams. 2) Don't go crazy sanding to the wood all the time. Sometimes it's not necessary, and a reputable painter will tell you this even if the job is at stake. 3) Get a written warrantee from your painter -- he does offer one when asked, right? 4) If your paint film is failing in 3 years or less, call the painter and get them out there to explain or fix it (they should fix it for free in the first 3 years)! 5) The paint is only as good as the prep. Good Luck, Lance Rubin South Mountain Home Service | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4998 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lance, correct me if I'm wrong, but when we had our house painted red several years ago, we ran into some problems. The color was Sherwin Williams, and initially a tinited primer was used. Everything showed through. Reps from SW came and said the spec'd primer for the color was actually a very pale gray. He tested the red over the gray and miraculously, coverage was much better, so the entire home was primed again and painted. Well, I learned my lesson on that one. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 1079 Registered: 10-2005 |
Lance, LOVE your helpful post!! That's the name of your company under your name, right? Should people wish to get in touch, should they pl you, or do you prefer a phonecall? (And are you listed?) We almost always use Benjamin Moore or Pratt and Lambert. Do you often use Sherwin Williams' self-priming stuff? Is it just as good a prim/finish with good paint? Can you get a color match for it, or is it limited to certain colors? Thanks! | ||
| mim Citizen Username: Mim Post Number: 698 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thank you, Lance. You've confirmed, very persuasively, much of what I've suspected after having a few houses repainted through the years. I'll stick to my guns with the contractors next time. | ||
| mbb Citizen Username: Mbb Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2006 |
A question for Lance: People wash a house when painting the exterior. Does one need to clean interior walls before painting them? If yes, how does one clean interior walls? Is vacuum cleaning enough, or is washing required? Thanks in advance for your answer. | ||
| Lance Rubin Citizen Username: Lance_rubin Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2006 |
Happy weekend everyone! Virtual It Girl -- I'm afraid I don't fully understand your question. What I am saying about red pigments is that they are the weakest of all pigments at covering other colors (they have a tendency towards latency -- you could say transparency) with the exception of similar colors. As far as the brand Sherwin Williams goes, I firmly believe that they do more research and testing than any other paint company, and have developed a better set of products. I say "set" of products because they work really well together. The fact that SW reps came out to your house to see what is going on attests to their commitment. Shanabana My pleasure. I am not sure what the policies are on this forum about providing my contact information. Doing so may be construed as advertising, and may be prohibited. I will check on that, and if it is ok, I would love to provide that information. That is my co. name, and it has two divisions: painting and carpentry. Although SW self priming paint is a state of the art product, I am very much like most people when it comes to new too-good-to-be-true products... slightly skeptical. I love to use their Duration paint; it looks wonderful, lasts long, wears well, is very durable, and elastic. Long story short, I still believe in priming with the best stuff on the market: Zinsser or Kilz. Yes, you can get it in ANY color! mim You should be able to get what you want and WHAT YOU ASK FOR in a paintjob! Stick to those guns! mbb Simple answer: YES!! A clean surface gives you a clean paintjob period. For interiors I suggest the following: For ANY room the bare minimum prep would be to take a broom across every paintable surface. (if nothing else it gets the cobwebs...) You would be surprised how must dirt and dust will get knocked off a wall that looks just fine. Should I clean the walls first? Test it: Wet some material or paper towel with a little soapy water. Put this material over your index finger, and swipe a section of the wall. If it's dirty... well, then it's dirty. A little soap and water should do, or better TSP. How to TSP Well, why not do it like the pro's do... Buy a box of TSP (trisodiumphosphate) -- it's very cheap. Put a little in a bucket of warm water. Put on some dishwashing gloves. Use either a LARGE sponge or some cotton cloth (your husband's tee shirt that says "drink beer" is perfect for this). Just wipe the walls down leaving them a little moist but NOT WET. If your water is getting progressively filthier, you are on the right track. Some walls are so filthy, it may be a good idea to pre-wet them. DONT use a garden sprayer for that!! It will create a HUGE mess! Now you can paint. But wait! Is the surface glossy or semi-gloss? Uh oh. Time to sand a little... darn! General rules of cleaning interiors before painting: Kitchens always get a mild soap/bleach solution wipe-down. ALWAYS! Bathrooms always get a mild bleach wipe-down (about 1 oz to a quart of water) Every other room gets every paintable surface sweeped with a broom. NOTE: If you do a lot of frying in your kitchen, then you will definately need to thoroughly clean every surface within 30 feet of the fryer (or burner) even if it is in another room or on another floor. Frying dispels microscopic particles of oil into the air, and they float around, and eventually attach themselves to walls or other surfaces. Again TSP is your best choice. You will find that the top of your kitchen cabinets get all gummed up with this crud too! That can be your Fall or Spring cleaning duty though. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3761 Registered: 5-2001 |
We have stucco rather than wood siding on our house. What do I need to know about painting stucco in order to be an "educated consumer"? Are there any painting contractors in this area who are recommended for stucco? | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 1094 Registered: 10-2005 |
sac - why not try that question as a new thread to get more bights? | ||
| Jason Citizen Username: Jason Post Number: 173 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hi - regarding TSP - I've also seen TSP substitute in Depot, promoting itself as a less 'harmful' alternative. Is this stuff any good, or should you just stick to good ol' TSP? Jason | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3763 Registered: 5-2001 |
Shanabana - I may do so, but I've actually started two or three stucco-related threads in the past and never gotten much response. Since the discussion was fairly lively in here, I thought I'd give it a try. I'm beginning to think that I'm the only MOLer who lives in a stucco house. ... but, even so, I would have thought that some of the contractor folks might also be able to provide insight (?) | ||
| Darren Say Grrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Darrensager Post Number: 542 Registered: 11-2001 |
I don't think that painting stucco is any more difficult that painting wood, other than you'd need to power wash the surface prior to painting to remove as much dirt off the surface as possible. Stucco can be like the inside of an english muffin with places for dirt to gather. Where the real skill comes in I would think would be the actual painting of the stucco. To do the job right it really should be sprayed, not rolled or brushed to make sure it has an even coating. I don't know how many of the local painting companies actually spray homes. However one would think they would based upon the volume of homes that get painted around here by a number of different companies. I'm surprised you haven't received any more comments about this. | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 5010 Registered: 5-2001 |
Our new house is stucco too, but it's really thick and bumpy, not smooth stucco. It's natural color now. The stucco is dyed when it's put on. I am hoping a good powerwash will freshen it up so we will just have to have all the trim painted. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3770 Registered: 5-2001 |
VIG - I don't know if that will work for us or not. Neighbors tell us that the house was originally a different color, but I don't know for sure, as it is not obvious at this point. We also have some serious cracking to deal with, which calls for some kind of repair. I just assumed that whoever paints stucco may also do the prep including dealing with the cracks, but maybe I'm wrong and we need some kind of mason. We do have a couple of neighbors with stucco houses (I think there are 4 or 5 on our block) and I keep missing them to have this conversation to learn what they have done, if anything. |
