Advice for renovating bathroom

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Author Message   Julia Citizen Username: Julia Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 2:23 pm:        I've been reading for awhile & there seems to be a lot of good advice here, so here goes. Our original 1940s bathroom is finally on it's last legs. We need to tear everything out & put in new tile (floor and walls), new shower over tub, new toilet & new double sinks. Moving things around isn't in the budget at this point, so the pipes would stay where they are. Does anyone have any advice on contractors (good and to avoid), ballpark costs, length of project, etc.? Thank you.   Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2004 Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 11:55 pm:        Just did the exact same thing. Replaced everything but didn't move around any of the pipes. It cost (labor and materials, including tile on the floor and 1/3 up the wall) about $14K. It also took about 4 weeks, although the contractor originally said he could do it in less than a week. Be VERY picky when choosing a contractor. I found out the person who referred to me the contractor was getting kickbacks based on the size of the job referred. The bathroom turned out nice, but it was a very, very bad experience dealing with the contractor.   Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 3720 Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 11:23 pm:        I would express the same caution and suggest adding incentives to the conctract. And INSIST on one. A contract I mean. Be wary of people who will only tell you "parts and labor" Any contractor not willing to sign a document of agreement is not going to do right by you. We spent over 20K on what was to be a two week job and it took over two months. I will not mention the contractor on this board anymore but PL me if you want the name and my particular experience. I will be happy to send you before, during and after pictures of the job. In this contract, think seriously about adding time incentives that say you will pay the contractor 100/day that they come in under estimate as long as everything passes inspection and penalize them if they go unreasonably over estimate. Or fail ispections for obvious stuff. The trouble with contractors is that once a job is started there is very little recourse for the customer. If you start it out up front with a document stating what you expect from them (and what you can expect from them)the bonuses they can expect from you for good work, and the penalties they can expect from you for poor work. Any contractor not willing to sign a reasonable document to that effect is, IMHO, not worth the risk. Especially if you are in a 1 and a half bath house. just my 2 cents.   Julia Citizen Username: Julia Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 11:04 am:        You guys make me nervous. Obviously, Duncan had a horrible experience. Mr. Big Poppa- what was it that was bad other than the kickbacks and the time it took? Was the quality of the work good? Why do you think the jobs went so much longer than anticipated? A week sounds too good to be true. How did 2 weeks turn into two months? Incentives may be a good idea, but were there more practical things that could have been done to make the job shorter? Can anyone recommend someone with whom they had a good experience?   bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 944 Registered: 6-2001 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 12:09 pm:        Duncan had a bad experience because Duncan is a classic Type A personality. Get several quotes with recommendations, go see the work listed on the recs and talk with the customers about the pluses and negatives of each contractor. Once work begins, do not hang over the contractor's shoulder every day; in fact, if it's the only full bath in the house, consider moving to temporary quarters until the job is complete. Remember that renovations are an incredibly stressful time and unforseen complications will arise, especially in the older homes in this area. Good luck!   Julia Citizen Username: Julia Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 12:52 pm:        Bets - We work full time, so hanging over shoulders is very unlikely. Moving to temporary quarters would be great, but isn't an option (since we'll be paying for a bathroom). How long do you think it should take? We have a half bath & very good friends who will let us shower at their house in the evenings. I appreciate the advice, although, I'm a little dissappointed that no one has recommended someone they like. Maybe I'm being impatient?   Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 3724 Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 12:53 pm:        Bets is right. With one obvious exception, since she has never even met me. But do get some estimates that are beyond "time and labor". From a few jobs I have learned that "time and labor" estimates tend to be way to flexible. Allow for difficulties yes, but get an estimate that is more than simply "time and labor". It is a mighty invasive experience. And if you can afford to move out of the house for the month it might take, more power to you, that was not an option for us. Sadly, we seem to live on the wrong side of the tracks, literally. Best of luck though no matter who you choose.   Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 469 Registered: 5-2003 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 2:25 pm:        No matter what the job, and no matter who the contractor, and no matter how long they say it will take, it almost always takes at least twice as long, and if there is anything horrendous that can go wrong, it will. If you bear this in mind, you will be able to relax a bit (maybe) and not have unrealistic expectations.   Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 3726 Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 5:34 pm:        Lizziecat.. while that is mostly true, its doesnt have to be that way. If you draft a document such as I suggest you will obviously have a hard time finding a contractor to sign it, but the whole thing about it taking twice as long will disappate over time. The reason it takes twice as long is because we let it, feeling like we have no recourse. Major construction contracts (perhaps not in south orange (read Beifus) ) have the financial incentives I mentioned above. Witness what Conn. did when the tanker caught fire on Route 95 and the road was destroyed and shut down in both directions. Due to incentives to the contractor, the road was completed well before the scheduled time and in a safe and inspection passable state. So it does work. Its a matter of changing ones position from that of submissive home owner to employer. It is something I tell young actors going to meet an agent, oddly enough. You are going to meet with them to see if they will work for you. Not the other way around. Sure you want to make the right impression and present yourself in the right light, but ultimately they will end up taking 10% of your earnings so they are working for you. Just make sure your working relationship is based on how you feel about the agent as well as how you fit in the agents stable. It is not that far from the contractor/contractee relationship either. FWIW.   bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 945 Registered: 6-2001 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 6:00 pm:        Duncan, I based my observance purely on your posts, both in your (deleted) renovation blog and elsewhere on the board.   Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 470 Registered: 5-2003 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 6:17 pm:        Duncan; I'm sure that you are correct. However, in the thirty-odd years that we have lived in this houe, we have had many jobs done--and done many by ouselves--all with good end results. But they have all taken longer than expected, and something has always gone wrong someplace. For example, when having our bathroom redone many years ago, the first time the contractor banged on the tile floor to break it up, the entire bathroom floor crashed into the dining room below. This was because the previous owners had had work done on the bathroom and had cut out a section of the supporting floor joist to make room for plumbing, and never replaced it. Not our contractor's fault, but the cause of a serious delay. And just a few weeks ago I had my bedroom and upstairs hallway painted. There was a lot of repair work needed on the old walls, and the painting contractor said it would take a week. They were here for more than two weeks--five men, every day, working slowly and meticulously and having a great time in Spanish--which I don't understand at all. Both times I had signed contracts, but there was nothing I could do about the extended delays. So I took a page from Greenetree's book, and practiced my mantra. Still, I'm sure that you're right.   Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 3729 Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 6:33 pm:        LIzzie.. that sure beats the hole in my kitchen ceiling.   Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2004 Posted on Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 8:21 pm:        My bad experience was due dealing with the contractor. He initially seemed like a great guy (owner and operator), but his demeanor changed significantly throughout the project. On one day he could be in a great, happy mood and then the next day (or even that afternoon) he would be acting like a jerk. That wouldn't be so bad except for the fact that he seemed to always be at our house and nosing around in our personal lives. Be careful. Sign a good contract and be sure to decide on a method for handling change orders. No matter how detailed your contract is, you will always encounter changes or unknowns along the way. It is important to have a way to add these changes (and their costs) to the contract via a change order process. Sounds like a hassle....but I wish I had something like that for my project. Good luck! I'm hoping on doing my kitchen in the spring, so don't thing that I was completely turned off by the experience.   Travis Citizen Username: Travis Post Number: 55 Registered: 6-2004 Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 6:50 am:        The problem with any estimate is the unexpected, especially with a bathroom. Not to scare you, but just to present you with a real-world scenario.... In our case, when we took up the floor, we found out why our tiles were popping up: some previous generations of plumbers had gouged huge notches in the joists to run pipes after extending the bathroom. They had also gouged 2" notches in 2x4 studs to run DWV, including an exterior (load-bearing) wall. Some remodeller, in recessing a radiator into the wall, had removed (!) the last 3' of a jack stud. The window header was undersized, as usual for these old houses; unfortunately there was also a splice in the top plate above the header, and the header was bowing down and the top plate sagging. There was also the usual stuff (a 4-way electrical splice out in the open, with one wire going to a switch buried in a door header, etc). At this point, you have two choices: (1) If you're going with El Cheapo contractor, he'll just ignore these issues and leave you with a superficially fine bathroom. In a few weeks or months, the tiles start popping.... (2) You decide to deal with all these issues. Suddenly the original estimate is no longer operative. Has anyone seen the Vincent Price/Diana Rigg movie "Theater of Blood," where a vengeful actor kills off his critics in various horrific ways? I'd like to remake that, but with a HO killing off the ORilly men who worked on his house through the years....   exwoodgirl Citizen Username: Exwoodgirl Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2004 Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 9:28 am:        I installed a bathroom in my Maplewood home. It was not a bathroom before--no plumbing even near the room. Used Laurent Custom Remodeling in South Orange. Had a very positive experience. I recommended them to friends who had their kitchen done, and they were very pleased as well. Don't have the phone # with me, but they are listed. Good luck!   Joan Auer Citizen Username: Joan Post Number: 115 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 9:50 am:        We used Jarek for a bathroom renovation. It took a few weeks longer than he estimated, but most of that was our fault because we had delays in getting the bathtub delivered. His work was beautiful and the experience was problem-free.   Julia Citizen Username: Julia Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 9:54 am:        Exwoodgirl- Thank you for the positive recommendation. I also received one via PL from someone else for another contractor. All the warnings are great; I am getting a sense of what to expect & think I should resign myself to mess and delay. That's why I'd like to find someone that has several good recommendations & I will still get a contract & look at other work they've done. Mr. Big Poppa- will you use the same contractor or a different one? I'm curious, because it seems as if you didn't click with the guy, but you didn't say anything negative about the quality of the work.   eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 926 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 10:50 am:        Hmmm Mr Poppa - your experience sounds similar to mine. We put in a powder room this summer where none existed before and used a contractor found thru MOL. He was very friendly and all about communication, the quote was reasonable and he could start when another contractor bailed on me. After the job started he became incredibly moody, in fact the word that comes to mind is "bitchy" and it was odd because he was this big strapping biker guy. In the end, while I'm happy with my powder room he did some shoddy work, some of which he repaired very grudgingly and some of which I gave up on because I just wanted him gone. It was my first renovation and I consider it a learning experience - albeit a very expensive one. I would not recommend this contractor and you can PL me if you want his name.   shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 658 Registered: 7-2002 Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 1:01 pm:        If you are nervous about your first renovation experience, you may want to consider doing a less important space first (budget allowing, of course). For our first renovation we decided to finish our basement. While we wanted a finished basement, we also considered it a trial run for more important renovations in the main part of the house. It was a way for us to practice our skills in dealing with contractors and get experience in seeing a project through from start to finish. I would not have wanted my kitchen or bathroom to be my first renovation. Now, having had the basement experience, I feel prepared to deal with the more important rooms.   Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2004 Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 4:09 pm:        Eliz- Although my contractor doesn't sound like the same as yours (not a big strapping biker guy), he was definitely moody. He also had the habit of forgetting several "little" things to which we had agreed, but not formalized in the contract (hence my recommendation on change orders). Julia- no way in HELL will I use this guy ever again. I would be willing to pay a premium to find a contractor who will deliver a good product on time and minds his own business. Maybe that's unrealistic....but I can dream, right?