| Author | Message | ||
     MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 1856 Registered: 5-2001  |
We have an old steam boiler that needs water added to it almost daily when it gets really cold (like it's been the past week or so). When it's not so cold (above freezing), it usually only needs water added weekly. I have not noticed any water or puddles anywhere in the house. Is this "normal" or something that should be looked at further? | ||
| Master Plvmber Citizen Username: Master_plvmber Post Number: 307 Registered: 3-2003  |
Look further. It's not normal at all. It may have a crack inside. In that case it could be sending water (steam) up your chimney. Gateway Plumbing & Heating | ||
| Amory Blaine Citizen Username: Fscott74 Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2004 |
I have pretty much the same issue (adding water 4-5 times per week) with no puddles visible. Other than scaling my roof, how would I tell if I'm sending steam out the chimney? And outside of the annoyance of having to add water, what are the more serious consequences of an old, thirsty furnace? BTW, Gateway came and serviced my boiler to increase efficiency, etc. in November. | ||
| 6yearrez Citizen Username: 6yearrez Post Number: 58 Registered: 9-2001 |
We finally replaced our boiler due to cracking such as that described- we had it checked out by 3 different people (PSEG and two plumbers), as we were adding water every 2-3 hours last week. We also had no leaks anywhere- determined the steam was going up the chimney. We were told that it isn't so unusual to add water every day or two when the weather is so, so cold. But every 2-3 hours means something is really wrong. By the time we decided to replace the boiler we were getting so little heat, even though it was running all the time. Now that we have the new boiler my kids' rooms upstairs actually feel warm. Given our experience I wouldn't worry over daily filling. I compulsively check my new boiler (old habits die hard) and it's needed water added about every two days. I know that it's running fine. Just don't let the water ever run out, you could really destroy the boiler (major cracking). Hope that helps. | ||
| parkah Citizen Username: Parkah Post Number: 85 Registered: 1-2003 |
we also have the same issue. when it's really cold, like it has been for the last week, we need to refill our boiler every day or every other day. when it's above freezing, we only need to fill the boiler every week. from MOL i've gathered that normally you're only suppose to fill your boiler about every 2 weeks.... so of course we've been worried that something is wrong with our system. but... like yourselves, we don't have any (visible) leaks or puddling. i can't say that i've ever seen any steam coming out of the chimney... though i'm not sure i'd really be able to identify it if there was. we've had several different plumbers out to look at the system (including gateway) and we've been told everything from "our near boiler plumbing is all wacked" to "we might have a cracked boiler" to "our boiler is probably porous". still don't understand what that last one means. but none of these plumbers seemed really sure and none really offered a solution. i guess trouble-shooting (as a form of customer service) doesn't really exist in this area? we've taken a few steps (ourselves) in hopes of shedding light on the problem (i.e., replacing all of the air vents, plugging up obvious drafts in the house, etc.) but nothing has seemed to make a difference. so... after a rather long-winded post, i guess my question is, has anyone found a plumber or "boiler specialist" who really understands a steam system and will take the time to work with homeowners in figuring out the problem? also... 6yearrez... how did you know (for sure) there was a crack in your boiler? | ||
| Bobkat Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 7352 Registered: 5-2001 |
Common sense would say when a boiler is running 12 plus hours a day (10 degree days) it would need water twice as often as when it is running six hours a day (50 degree days). | ||
| mrmaplewood Citizen Username: Mrmaplewood Post Number: 147 Registered: 5-2001 |
I had a similar problem and was told by two plumbers that the boiler was cracked. I found it hard to believe given that there was no hissing and no excessive steam from the chimney. Finally got a handyman/plumber to check it out. He found a broken steam pipe which was outside the house (underneath a house extension) and fixed it for far less than a new boiler. No wonder we could not detect escaping steam inside the house. Just a thought. | ||
| David Cataneo Citizen Username: Dave_cataneo Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2004 |
Adding water to a boiler every day or so is NEVER normal or OK. The fact is, you are trying to find an invisible gas escaping somewhere throughout an 80-year old piping and radiator network that may be covered by insulation, behind walls, under floors, etc. Or, in the worst case, leaking inside the boiler and steaming up the chimney. This steam would never be visible above the roof line. Our normal procedure is to look at the obvious first - Have the air vents been replaced within the last 5-10 years, are the radiator valves old, how about the end-of-main vents and return piping? We hesitate to dismantle 20, 30 and 40+ year old boilers looking for leaks that may not be there until all the simple solutions have been exhausted - And yes, an improper installation can cause the boiler to lose water rapidly. | ||
| Master Plvmber Citizen Username: Master_plvmber Post Number: 309 Registered: 3-2003 |
Do you have a humidifier? Look at what’s caked up near the heating element after the water tank is empty. That film of crud is what’s in everybody’s water. Multiply that by a lot. That’s what is lying on the base of your steam boiler. Every time you fill the boiler you add more crud. The crud acts as an insulator between the flame and the water in the boiler. The more water you add, the less heat is exchanged between the flame and the water. That is one reason why boilers loose efficiency over time. (That is also why the cast iron block of your boiler is called the “heat exchanger”.) I have seen many cross-sections of boilers that used to take, say, ten gallons of water to fill, which over time would fill with six. The rest of the boiler was filled with pockets of rock-hard crud. Those boilers, even in that state, usually worked. So, why don’t we just add water filters to our boiler feed pipes? Because the water will still contain a bunch of oxygen. The mixture of oxygen and water is cast iron’s worst enemy. Luckily, all you have to do to the water to get rid of the excess oxygen is to boil it. So your house is cold and the oxygen leaves the boiler within the first few run cycles. But it’s left its mark. Every time you add water, you add oxygen. Fresh water kills boilers because oxygen kills boilers. Whenever we change a two-year-old boiler, it’s because of having to add water too often. The manufacturers will tell you that when they have to send a representative to investigate a warranty claim for a leaking boiler, it’s to find out why they had to add water so often. Nobody needs a 40,50 or 60 year old boiler in their home. (I’m not even going to go into carbon monoxide.) Re: finding a “boiler specialist” who really understands a steam system and will take the time to work with homeowners in figuring out the problem? What makes a “boiler specialist” is someone who understands the characteristics of the materials that makes up a boiler, understands how a boiler is intended to operate, understands the effects of field conditions, can interpret a multitude of behaviors and can reliably predict the outcome of variables applied to system design. By far, the best way to identify a cracked heat exchanger is to isolate and pressurize the boiler. That means: 1. Remove all the piping and controls. 2. Plug control and piping ports. 3. Secure some type of pressure gauge to the heat exchanger. 4. Fill the boiler with air to its manufacturer’s specified tolerances. 5. Lock off the air feed. 6. Monitor pressure changes. How much do you think this should cost so far? Read on: Boiler passes test: 1. Reassemble boiler to original condition. (two technicians, one day. Same labor costs as new boiler installation.) If boiler fails the test: 1. Remove boiler jacket. 2. Inspect visible portions. 3. Release air 4. Fill with water. 5. Re-pressurize with hydrostatic testing equipment. 6. Locate leaking section. 7. Determine if repairable. 8. Under warranty? Contact manufacturer. 9. Not under warranty? Buy new boiler or heat exchanger. Installation cost of either should be in the same ballpark. If someone from my company said your near-boiler piping is “wacked”, then it is. You just saved some money. (When I find out who, I’ll speak to him about his terminology) Gateway Plumbing and Heating | ||
| viva Citizen Username: Viva Post Number: 620 Registered: 5-2001 |
we just got a new boiler last year. but about 3 years ago, we were adding water every day to our old boiler. we were told to replace it (it was just 15 years old) because of a crack. then someone else told us to install an automatic feed for 200. and we did just that. in all, we got an extra 3 years out of the old system, but did have to replace it because it finally kicked. falcon plumbing and heating in bloomfield did the work for us and would recommend them. | ||
| Master Plvmber Citizen Username: Master_plvmber Post Number: 310 Registered: 3-2003 |
You purchased an automatic water feeder to fill a cracked boiler? Gateway Plumbing and Heating | ||
| viva Citizen Username: Viva Post Number: 621 Registered: 5-2001 |
you doubt me? | ||
| mwsilva Citizen Username: Mwsilva Post Number: 435 Registered: 5-2002 |
I have to say that after reading this, I have a new boiler, 2 years old. Installed well with iron pipe. On the cold days, it needs water every other day and once in a while every day. On normal cold days it can go a week to two weeks. I have an auto fill, however, keep it isolated because I am concerned about a flood, and I like to see what the boiler is doing. No one is going to tell me that I have a leak. I know better. What I read here is the master plumber, Gateway, scareing the heck out of people and drumming up business. What happend to the guys that use to give advice for free and without bias? tjohn, nrl??someone, jgberkely, the guy with the little r in college; where did they go? | ||
| David Cataneo Citizen Username: Dave_cataneo Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2004 |
If you don't have a leak, where is the water going? You're saying the more your boiler runs, the quicker you lose water. OK- I won't tell you you have a leak. I haven't added water to my boiler in a couple of weeks and its been running around the clock. | ||
| wnb Citizen Username: Wnb Post Number: 216 Registered: 8-2001 |
FWIW, We had a leaking radiator valve and I had to fill the boiler fairly frequently. Got the valve replaced finally and lo and behold, I've added water to the boiler I think twice since then (this was back in Sept or Oct I think), and each time it only kind of needed to be topped off. And it was Gateway (Master Plvmber's place) BTW who did the work, didn't put the fear into me about anything, and when I asked him to replace our radiator vents he showed me how to do it myself and saved me some bucks. So in my experience I don't agree with you, mwsilva. I hang out in Please Help a lot and have not seen the kind of behavior you describe. And any way you look at it, installing an auto fill system to a cracked boiler is treating the symptom and not the root problem. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2883 Registered: 12-2001  |
Gateway charges fair prices. If they are asked to come look for a look, they will charge a fair price. That's my opinion. Anyway, regarding leaks. If the water loss rate is higher when the boiler runs more often, the leak is probably not in the wet returns - those are condensate return pipes below the boiler water line and are always full of water. If the boiler has a crack that is releasing steam up the chimney, then your chimney should be emitting a lot more steam than anybody elses. I notice that most houses, whether gas or oil heat don't have that much steam coming from their chimneys even on cold days. So, check all of the radiator air vents. If they are hissing when the radiator is hot, it means the system has too much pressure (turn down the pressuretrol - well, the Honeywell PA404 isn't exactly a precision instrument) or the vent is worn out and should be replaced. Check the radiator shutoff valves. Is there any water dripping onto the floor. Check all of the mains and risers than you can see. Is there any hissing or visible steam. It can be hard. I remember one poster named Nova about three years ago who finally found the leak in a crawl space. If a riser in the wall is leaking, keep an eye out for peeling paint or wallpaper. This would indicate moisture. For reference, I haven't added water to my boiler since Christmas. | ||
| parkah Citizen Username: Parkah Post Number: 86 Registered: 1-2003 |
thank you tjohn. this was the kind of trouble-shooting advice i was looking for. i'm not convinced my boiler has a crack, and i certainly like/appreciate directions on how to look for other possibilities before i follow masterplumber's advice and shell money for a test that may or may not prove a crack, but cost me as much as a new boiler. and honestly, so many plumbers have told me so many different things about my "loss of water" problem, that i hold the advice to re-plumb my near boiler piping right up there with ripping out the entire system and replacing it with a central air unit. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2885 Registered: 12-2001 |
The wet returns can be deceiving. Our old basements can soak up a bit of water, so a leak of say 2 gallons per day could go unnoticed. | ||
| robert Citizen Username: Robert Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2002 |
Check your valves. Some systems have bad valves in the basement level. When they leak they leak bad. | ||
| Bobkat Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 7387 Registered: 5-2001 |
David, I didn't mean to imply that having to add water everyday is normal. However, having to add water more frequently when the boiler is running more during extremely cold weather would seem to be logical. |
