1st Fl Powder Room - Value Added?

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Author Message   Bklyn1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2004 Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:50 am:        We have a 3 br plus finished attic (could be 4th br)that has 3 full baths (3rd is in attic and is bath only, no shower due to slope of roof). All baths are on 2nd or 3rd floors. We're probably going to expand footprint of 1st floor to add a breakfast room/expand our small kitchen. We're struggling to find a place to put a first floor powder room. If there were an obvious location, we'd readily pay for the cost of fixtures and plumbing. Interested in MOLers views. Is the desirability of first floor powder room (from re-sale perspective) powerful enough that we should make sure, somehow, to incorporate it in our remodel/addition? House is in a neigborhood of roughly similarly sized houses, but most have already had additions and there are some larger homes. Thank you.   Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 1378 Registered: 9-2002 Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:55 am:        It really depends on your lifestyle. If you have kids, especially small ones who have limited bladder control, it is very valuable. If you have guests over and you don't want to clean the upstairs, it is helpful. If I were buying a new home it would definitely be a consideration.   jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 748 Registered: 7-2001 Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 11:22 am:        My brother lives on Sunset, when he redid his kitchen he removed the powder rm to make more space . He now regrets it.   Bobkat Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 7611 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 11:25 am:        Most people expect a first floor powder room. I think not having one would be a negative in selling.   shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 735 Registered: 7-2002 Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 11:45 am:        We have two full baths on the second floor and a half bath in the finished basement, but no first-floor powder room. It's more of a hassle for hand-washing than for toileting. I hate that we use the kitchen sink for pre-meal hand-washing, but it's too difficult to get my kids to go upstairs or downstairs to do it. But it's a funny thing: when my son was being toilet trained, he found it odd that other people's homes had a bathroom on the first floor. He'd say, "Why do they have a bathroom down here?!"   campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 133 Registered: 4-2002 Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 12:06 pm:        When we were home shopping, a downstairs powder room was one of my "must haves". We have one right off our playroom, which is the ideal location.   Bklyn1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2004 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 8:46 am:        Thank you all for your input. campbell29's comment reminds me of the location question. Where would you put the powder room? Down the road I may post a diagram. For now, I'll say we're only adding onto the kitchen. I've seen other houses where they put a powder room in the "Maplewood" room (ours happens to be in S. Orange). Ours doesn't seem well suited to that (doors to LR and radiator locations) and one of the reasons we liked the house was the original detail and look of the Maplewood room. So, I'm thinking we create a hallway of sorts between the dining room (front of house) and kitchen (back of house) and put the bath off of it. My wife thinks having a bathroom so close to the dining room is inappropriate because there isn't sufficient privacy. As far as I can tell, the only other alternative is putting it off the breakfast room (part of the addition). To me, that poses somewhat similar privacy issues and makes it so folks have to walk clear across the kitchen and breakfast room to get there. Her thought is that if we're having a dinner party, that would be better than being "earshot" from dining room. I'm thinking a fair amount of insulation and an autovent can fix that issue, but it may not change guests' perception that they're close to the dining room. Thoughts? Thank you.   Bobkat Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 7622 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 9:05 am:        This is always an issue. Most Maplewood/South Orange middle class homes didn't have a first floor lavatory when they were built. As posted here a lot of people used pantry space and I have seen others actually in closets, and not very large closets at that. Because of this most of them are off the kitchen or breakfast area because that is the only practical place for them. Certainly less than elegant, but sometimes that is the price of having the convenience.   shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 738 Registered: 7-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 9:40 am:        As part of your kitchen renovation, can you include a mud room with a half-bath off of it?   greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 3910 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 10:06 am:        Our old 1st floor bathroom was between the kitchen and den, with access from both. TS hated it. You could hear everything and it became a pass-thru between the rooms instead of walking thru the dining room (a whole extra 10 steps). It didn't bother me so much and when we entertained, we would lock the bathroom/kitchen door so that people would enter from the den. It helped with the "appearance" of privacy. Our new bathroom is in the den, not near the kitchen. I like it there much better. If the hallway will locate the bathroom so that it is near, but not right off of, the dining room, I'd go with that. You can have your contractor put extra insulation in those walls and a thick rug on the bathroom floor to absorb sound. Let me just say that there are some functions that should be taken to the upstairs bathroom. If you find that those times end up happening in the powder room off of the kitchen, you will come to highly regret the placement decision.   Meandtheboys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 218 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:21 am:        Recently attended a Newcomers meeting called "Move or Improve." A local realtor was the featured speaker (there was an architect there also). This very question was asked: "good idea for resale?" Her answer: absolutely! There was no discussion of placement, but (IMHO) I've always been pretty grossed out by bathrooms directly off the kitchen.   gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 12:38 pm:        OK, we're trying to figure this out also as our kitchen is seriously in need of work. Our house currently has one full bath located on the second floor. A previous owner thought it would be a good idea to add a second bathroom on the first floor. Great, right? WRONG. Well at least not the way it was executed: take space from the already small kitchen to put in a toilet. It is enclosed, but there is no sink and the room is smaller than many public restroom stalls. While this toilet can be convenient at times it's not really great having guests wash their hands in the kitchen sink after using the bathroom. And as I mentioned it's basically IN the kitchen. So guests often just use the upstairs bathroom. If money was no object we wouldn't have bought this house...uh, I mean we would remove this stupid toilet, renovate the kitchen and then bump out to add breakfast nook, a "real" half-bath and maybe even a small family room. Unfortunately, the addition isn't going to happen right now. So we have a couple options: We can get rid of the toilet and renovate the kitchen. This will give us a better and more workable, though still small, kitchen and we wouldn't have to do anything to the kitchen if we ever get around to the rest of the work. However, we're left with only one bathroom until then. Or, we can rework what we have to be a "nicer" micro bathroom and tiny akward kitchen. If we do the addition we would end up doing at least part of the kitchen again. So, what's your opinion? We're not looking to sell now, but if you were buying which would be better? Please help...   greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 3911 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:12 pm:        One bathroom, nicer, larger kitchen. Never make a kitchen smaller (IMHO).   shh Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 2202 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:19 pm:        I think I'd be more disappointed to see a toilet in the kitchen that I'd want to rip out than only one bathroom. As a matter of fact, when we were looking htere were quite a few homes similar to oours that did have bathrooms right smack in the middle of the kitchen and we bought one without a first floor bath. We ended up putting ours off the kitchen where the old butler's pantry was. Now, with our recent renovation, we configured the old mudroom/butler's pantry with a fridge, a huge pantry cabinet and microwave, but it's separated from the kitchen by a large archway. My dream (yeah right) would be to remove the bath from there, make it a laundry room and do an addition off the front of the house with a powder room and larger foyer. But that's not happening. Anyway, perhaps the powder room could be put in a hall closet or something.   gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:27 pm:        greenie - a larger kitchen AND a bathroom isn't really an option right now. BTW, the cabinets are literally beginning to fall of the walls so it's not as if we can just wait 5 more years and do everything at once. shh - there really is NOWHERE else for a bathroom on the first floor without an addition. Given the options I think we have which is better? Any other ideas?   greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 3912 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:34 pm:        G- Sorry I wasn't clear. If I'm understanding your post, removing the "toilet with walls" would make a larger kitchen, even by a little, right? And then you'll renovate. I'd go with that. We have neighbors with tiny, tiny kitchens. They used the same designer & they are absolutely beautiful with every inch of space maximized. Both are very different layouts - one family has a child & the other doesn't so they had different needs.   shh Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 2203 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:46 pm:        GJ1, I agree with Greenie. Also, I believe of utmost importance with a small kitchen is finding a good architect or designer. Trust me. I've been there done that and it's a lot less expensive to do it once the right way than do it twice. Even if it adds to the cost. Another thing to consider is enlarging the archway to the dining room, or I've even seen people make their dining rooms a little smaller to enlarge the kitchen a few crucial feet. Originally my kitchen was a 10x10ish box, totally enclosed with doorways everywhere. We ripped out all the walls and had a kitchen dining space with doorways everywhere. (Still not good). This year we finally got smart enough and hired an architect to help us plan the space most efficiently. (I was driving myself and my husband nuts.) Now, with larger archways as opposed to none at all, we have the separate kitchen/dining room but it feels very spacious, and my kitchen is really only 12x12. Check out my Renovation blog to see what I mean. I feel your pain!   gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 124 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 2:37 pm:        Thanks for the input. Removing the toilet will only add a few square feet but I agree that it can make a huge difference. The kitchen (excluding the bathroom) is 10x12 less a 3.5x4 space in one corner for the stairs to the basement. So it's <100 sq. ft! I don't want to open up the wall to the dining room, so making the most of the existing space has been the focus. I've been through dozens of possible layouts and have one that I think will work well if we get rid of the bathroom. It's basically a modified galley that is fairly open and has enough counter/cabinet space and the traffic flow will be much better than the current kitchen. I guess my feeling is that a decent kitchen is better than an smaller akward kitchen and a joke of a bathroom. The downside is that we'd have to live without that bathroom for at least a couple years.   Meandtheboys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 222 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:27 pm:        When we bought our house, which was a complete wreck, we gutted the entire first floor and redid everything (mostly ourselves)! The original kitchen had a very awkwardly placed pantry that would have easily made a good sized powder room. Even had a window in it. However, no matter how I looked at it, I couldn't see how I could have the bathroom and have an EIK. And, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I have always been particularly grossed out by bathrooms right off the kitchen. Long story short, I chose to go with the extra space for the EIK, and forgo the 1st floor bath, and haven't regretted in once in the 6 years we've been here (okay, maybe when I was pregnant and could barely climb the stairs to the bathroom). I've potty trained two kids in this house, and never found it to be a problem in that regard either. IMHO, an eat-in-kitchen is just as valuable as a first floor bath, in terms of resale. We are also entertaining the idea of adding on to the house, enlarging the kitchen, adding a family room. If we end up doing that, I will make every effort to find a place for a 1st floor bath.   Melba Jamison Citizen Username: Melbaj Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:48 am:        shh, Would you mind PLing me the information about the architect you hired to help plan the space most efficiently. I am interested in turning our pantry into a 1st Floor powder room.   AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 12:22 pm:        ssh, PL me too. My wife and I are looking for a designer (but I suppose an architect might be just as good if not better) to replan our 10x10 kitchen -- also with lots of doors and windows. (I'm off to read your renovation blog)   AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 9:06 pm:        ssh, I just got finished reading your ENTIRE home renovation blog. Wow!!! No need to PL me, all the info was in the blog. It looks like you did a very professional, much attention to detail job (AKA -- expensive). But it looks totally GORGEOUS. I especially loved all the tile work. The inset black line on the bathroom floor to me was just so cool, and simple to boot. I also really liked the openness of the kitchen/dining room. If I had a lot of cash, I would consider getting an architect to do something similar to my house. Unfortunately I just don't think we could afford it, or be without a kitchen and dining room for that long. You guys were at it for MONTHS. But it totally looks worth it. Kudos.   compsy Citizen Username: Compsy Post Number: 172 Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 9:34 pm:        I'd say as long as you're expanding the footprint of the house, do whatever you have to in order to have a main floor bathroom. It not only will help in re-sale, but when aged family members come to visit, or anyone with mobility issues, it really is nice to have a rest room on main floor....   Miss L Toe Citizen Username: Miss_l_toe Post Number: 173 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:39 pm:        AlleyGater: Where did you find ssh's 'renovation blog'? I can't find any links to it?   AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:32 pm:        Right here. The long answer is in the main Forums page http://maplewoodonline.com/forum/ there is a forum called Blogs. Inside there is a forum called "Shh's renovation highlights". Don't forget to hit the archives which are at the top of the blog. SSH really has alot of entries in there so it's pretty long...but a fun read. :-)