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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 3917
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 10:28 am: | 
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OK - I know this question comes up every once in awhile and there are 3 basic responses:
1. Move on; life's too short
2. Don't rest until the bastard is publicly whipped in Ricalton Square at noon on a Saturday
3. Try to work out a reasonable compromise.
The problem is that (1) is letting him of the hook too easily, (2) is probably overkill and (3) is what I thought we were doing, until I got a bizarre e-mail from the person.
Executive Summary:
We put in a new bathroom with a stall shower. My plumber (who is very expensive and very good) did the work up to the pan. The contractor did the rest from mud job on. Mosaic tile was used on the shower floor. After the floor was laid, the contractor turned on the shower to test the tile and it came right up.
So, the floor tile was relaid. No problem. Right?
Since this is a guest bathroom, the shower doesn't realy get used. TS and I each used it once because it was new. The job was finished in August. Fast forward to Christmas. The in-laws come and use the guest bathroom to shower. They stay for two days. After they leave, I notice that the shower floor is buckling. I call my plumber (who lives nearby and is nice enough to come over since the amount of money we spent with him on new plumbing and heating systems during the renovation will put both his kids thru college).
He says "it could be one of x,y or z" things, but clearly the floor is coming up". There is only one way to tell for sure, and that is to take up the floor and inspect the pan. I have my contractor come look, too, so that he can see the problem for himself. He agrees the floor is coming up.
this is where I would like to insert the icon for "on the floor sobbing" but, despite repeated requests, Jamie hasn't made it available yet.
So, my plumber takes up my floor and finds that the shower pan has three - count 'em, three patches in it and one is open. He didn't do it.
I call my contractor, who tells me he knew about the one, but not the other. He agrees to pay for the replacement pan and redo the floor from the mud job up.
That is, until I tell him the my plumber charged me $625 for the pan.
Now, I agree that this is a lot of money. Perhaps I am being robbed, perhaps not. The guy is a pro, he has always done right by me and stood by his work and his errors. This is the same plumber who's guys forgot to reconnect a steam pipe to a radiator and reimbursed me for the entire cost of redoing the affected floor as well as the repair work to the walls and ceilings below. Without questioning my choice of flooring contractors or estimates.
So, back to the contractor. He argues with me about the cost of the pan, saying it should be much less. Wants to call the plumber. I tell him that if he makes that call, to leave me out of it, because the pan would not be being replaced but for the actions of his crew and that since I owed the plumber for the new pan, and he agreed to pay for it, he owed me.
So, the other day, I get a check from the contractor for less than half the amount of the pan ($305) along with a written estimate from another plumber for that amount. This includes a letter stating that this is the most it should have cost.
Greenetree goes nuts. We have been going back and forth about a lot of other things, but on this I am not flexible. I call a lawyer (very nice local guy - if you need an attorney, PL me for his name & more details).
In the meantime, the contractor agrees that we should try and work this out ourselves (which my lawyer thinks is a good first step, so with his blessing, I put him on hold). I tell the contractor that I agree to try and reach a compromise, will not be flexible on the remaining cost of the shower pan (there are some other issues).
So - the bizarre e-mail arrives last night and says that someone is not being truthful and that he wants to see the original estimate for the original work and my copy of the cancelled check, both sides.
Am I wrong in assuming that this guy is, for all intents and purposes, calling me a liar or a cheat? Is it even any of his business how much I paid another contractor for work (since the original pan was part of the large job bid)? Am I wrong in expecting him to, at a minimum, make good on what he said he would? Without strings?}
Do I continue to try and negotiate with this person or just turn it over to the attorney?
I am truly at a loss here.
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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7682
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 10:43 am: |
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First off I have no idea on how much a pan should cost. From your comments this looks like it was a custom installation, not one of the prefab pans that can be purchased from a plumbing supply. Right or wrong?
Second, it seems that your contractor will pay for the redo of the tile on the floor of the shower and that the only difference is the roughly $300 difference between what you paid for the pan and what the contractor feels you should have paid for the pan.
Third, you functioned as your own general contractor. The contractor you dealt with was basically the carpenter. When you are the GC, a lot of things are your responsibility. You also probably saved at least 5% by being the GC.
Fourth, you are one of the more fiesty (or is that feisty) people I "know".
Fifth, I don't think it is unreasonable to provide documents supporting the cost. If this goes to court you are going to have to do this, although $300 doesn't seem worth it to be honest.
I don't think this should be taken as a personal insult.
Sixth, my suggestion would be to negotiate.
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cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 704
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
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Well, first of all, I'm on your side. If for no other reason than I like your posts.
I guess my intitial reaction is that "it could have gone worse." I'm surprised (nay, shocked) that the contractor actually sent you a written estimate he secured from another plumber. Many contractors assume they are gods, and it's up to them to tell you what something should cost, not the other way around. It sounds like he is at least making an effort to justify their refusal to pay the higher amount.
Again, not taking the contractors side. But, at least the guy seems interesting in working something out. Usually you hear horror stories like this where the contractor simply disappears, and you're left with suing them or moving on and accepting the shoddy work -- and neither is a good solution.
You say you are going back and forth about a lot of other things. How much remains outstanding? Is there still work to be done in your house? |
Wendyn
Supporter
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
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I am amazed that someone who undoubtedly received many jobs from your recommendations would quibble over $300.
I would try to understand why he thinks you might be lying. Perhaps he misunderstood some information he received from the plumber or another contractor? |
shh
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 2208
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:05 am: |
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I would provide the documentation he asks for. You may not be a liar, but lots of other people are. Don't take it personally.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 3921
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:08 am: |
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Bob & Monty, thanks for your replies.
The thing is, I did send him the plumber's bill for the replacement shower pan (which was custom). He thought it was too high, so by requesting the estimate for the first (don't most people only have one in a new bathroom?), I guess he wants to make sure that the plumber is charging the same amount for both.
Legally, he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Replacement cost is what was incurred.
As for the 5% we may have saved, that's gone with the amount of rework we are doing. That's what we are trying to negotiate.
Bob - you raise an interesting point. I thought of the GC position as one of managing the project, not the skill set to do the work. Do you think that I expected too much in terms of skills?
Frankly, if it were a matter of this person being a carpenter and not an overall contractor, I would have chosen another direction for the project. |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 518
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
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Can you take him to small claims court? |
mtierney
Citizen
Username: Mtierney
Post Number: 770
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
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Greentree: "I thought of the GC position as one of managing the project, not the skill set to do the work."
Taking on the job as GC without real knowledge and experience in building and construction is not a good thing. If it was all about saving "5%" everybody would give it a try.
A GC is more than a coordinator of the trades on a job.
A GC would have been there and talked with the plumber and your contractor on how to resolve the shower pan problem before you, the owner, was made to feel personally attacked.
Aside from a new contractor  , what advice would you offer someone considering a major renovation such as yours? |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 950
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
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Greentree
This is LOUSY! sorry.
Sounds like GC will stand by his work and fix the problem - right?
Question is whether his $305 shower pan is at least as good as the $625 you originally paid?
While in my gut I'm sure you want YOUR plumber to do this job, I wonder whether that would fly legally? (not a lawyer, not even close!)
If he has a plumber who will do the job for $305 AND the GC will stand behind the redone shower -- I'd say go for it and get it done. (just be sure that you see what the new liner and pan look like as they go in, e.g., no patches of any kind!)
Unfortunately, this says volumes about the tiling subs the GC used and his lack of oversight of them.
Methinks your next project needs a different GC. (if nothing else, because of his lousy attitude over $300 given the amount of work you've given him)
Good luck --
Pete |
shh
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 2210
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 12:29 pm: |
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Pete, Greenie acted as her own GC. I am assuming her problem is with her "contractor" who I guess does carpentry and maybe tiling, but will not act as a GC? I don't know, I find it all very confusing. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 3922
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
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MTierny,
Funny you should ask what we would have done differently. I am doing a blog on that very thing.
Just to be clear, we never decided to do our own GC to save money, although that was a "perq". With everything we did last year (central air, deck,etc.) it was a 6 figure project.
We did the GC thing because we are control freaks and would have run behind a GC anyway. And, to an extent, it worked. We coordinated all the pros, when things would be delivered, ordering, etc. The one thing that we did not count on was that someting might turn out badly because of insufficient skill levels. If the shower pan failed because of the holes in it, is that because the workers were not skilled enough? Should the contractor not have replaced it at the time instead of patching it? Was it a lack of suifficient supervision?
The contractor agreed to pay for the shower pan. He did not ask to bring in his own plumber or give a cost limit (which I probably would have challenged anyway). Do I not have the right to have someone I know and trust do this work?
We did have it worked out. The plumber was to replaced the shower pan and the contractor was to fix the shower floor and pay for the shower pan. Other issues arose after that, which is what led to me replacing the contractor.
It was only after he was replaced that the shower pan became an issue.
And, Shh, the reason it is confusing is because, well, it is. We wanted to be able to use our own plumber and electrician, which is hard to do with a GC who has their own established relationships or subs. The contractor recommended a really good demo guy & a not so good drywall guy. Neither he nor we knew the drywall guy would be a disaster, and I had seen his work before. I'm not blaming him for that.
Whether or not our contractor was a GC was never the issue. We knew that we were taking on a lot of work and headaches by coordinating the work. And we had no problem negotiating things between pros (although there were few, if any, problems, between them).
Sure, we made some mistakes. But at the end, the one thing that never should have been a question was that the work would fail and have to be repeated. |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 951
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 2:19 pm: |
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shh --
right, and sorry, I understand there was not a GC -- but mis spoke.
still, it appears the "tile" contractor was willing to stand by the job -- albeit with a $305 shower pan, not a $625 shower pan.
Greenie -- I do think you're right about bringing in people you know and trust to do the work.
From your most recent post -- are you going to have a different contractor redo the tile (and pay them yourself)?
That said, if you allow the original contractor to use the plumber with the $305 price -- do you trust the contractor enough to make good if there is a problem? If yes -- then have him do it, have the tile redone, then use the shower like crazy after the grout sets!
Finally -- why did the floor fail anyway? You happened to find a patched shower pan -- but it didn't leak, right? Seems you are victim to a really sloppy job -- maybe even wrong thin set or mastic?
Wish you luck in resolving this --
Pete |
upondaroof
Citizen
Username: Upondaroof
Post Number: 97
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 7:36 pm: |
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greentree writes: "I call my contractor, who tells me he knew about the one, but not the other. He agrees to pay for the replacement pan and redo the floor from the mud job up."
If this tiler didn't ask upfront what the plumber was going to charge to replace the pan, then why is he hedging on paying for it? We live in a very strange and litiginous world. Contracts and agreements are made and then one or all parties want to re-negotiate after the deal goes down. Seems to me, like this guy is an all around screw up. He couldn't get it right the first two times, wants to make it right, but doesn't want to ante up and you got to be thinking "do I really want to give this guy another chance?"
I'd lay it out to him as follows: You re-do the floor as needed and pay the full price the plumber charged or you take him to court for the pan and someone else to finish his mess. |
The Contractors
Citizen
Username: Thecontractors
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 10:03 pm: |
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Being the contractor in question, I am not posting to start a war. I have always liked Greenetree and TS very much. We've gone out socially and have been invited to their home on several occasions. This is probably why this has been very difficult for both of us.
A mistake was made with the shower pan. I was so sure I used the best possible material that I contacted the manufacturer, and they told me that there was a chance of shrinkage. I think if I had not been so quick with her initially, believing I was right, we probably would not be here.
That said, the 3/16" thick neoprene rubber pan material that was used comes on a 5- or 6-foot wide roll at any plumbing supply. If you call trimming with a razor-knife "custom" than it is. The materials for this job cost less than $40 retail. Greenetree told my foreman and I that it took one of her plumber's workers 1 hour to replace it.
I don't think Greenetree would ever say that I knowingly did something wrong. I didn't. I just don't know any plumbers that get $580+ per hour. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I just think I need an explanation given the facts. If truly good advice is what you're looking for, all the facts should be given. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 3925
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
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Contractor - I am not going to start a war with you, either. I posted a question, without naming names. After I had the blog removed. Only those few die-hard fans may have remembered who you were. Newer posters, especially ones who didn't know about my blog, never would have known who you were.
People have posted asking for info about you. I have not said one word. Zip. Nadda.
Now, if you would like to hash the details out in public, just say so. But, it will all be posted. Including the pics.
Just tell me how you would like to proceed. |
The Contractors
Citizen
Username: Thecontractors
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:46 pm: |
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I thought we had agreed to proceed through e-mail. Then I saw this thread. I just thought some key details were omitted.
That's all. |
CFA
Citizen
Username: Cfa
Post Number: 1305
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 4:38 am: |
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I'd say hash it out between yourselves without involving the general readership. Fix the job, kiss and make up.  This is one reason why I don't let friends do work for us. |
Michael K. Mc Kell
Citizen
Username: Greenerose
Post Number: 570
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 7:03 am: |
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I'm with CFA on this one. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 3926
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 8:52 am: |
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All-
I apologize if it appears that this was intended to be an attack; it was not. I had a real question about a portion of a dispute I'm having in a business relationship and got some interesting feedback and perspectives I hadn't thought about.
It was turning into an interesting thread about what to do when things go wrong. I'm still mulling over the subtle differences that seem to be raised over a GC/carpenter/contractor. MTierny and Bob gave me food for thought (although MT isn't exactly unbiased when it comes to certain tasks as DIY  ).
I will not promise to refrain from posting when I have questions or want to share a perspective. If I am specifically asked about a particular person and cannot give a recommendation to hire that person, I will reply via PL. As always, I will continue to state what (in my experience) have been pros and cons.
But, the business person and I have issues that we will continue to work out in private. I can promise that I will not engage him online.
FWIW, I think very few people remembered who I used. In fact, I had used the drywall guy's name several times in relaying the disasterous experience (and more nail heads appear weekly  ). I've still gotten several PLs asking for his name so that people can avoid him. They remember the experience, not the person.
Now, I still need clarification on one thing: I may be misunderstanding, but I think I'm hearing that contractors who do not do GC work are basically carpenters. Is this a general opinion? Somehow, it seems like carpentry is a specific skill set, but that a person can be a contractor with a larger skill set without taking care of the coordination, negotiation, etc. For example, if you have an architect coordinating the project, and a contractor who is doing all the work and bringing in the sub, who is the GC?
I'm very confused. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7695
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 9:16 am: |
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A General Contractor is someone who contracts with a homeowner (or business) to fully complete a project. They hire the subs, pay them, supervise them, etc.
In the home remodeling business most GCs, at least in this area, do the carpentry work and possibly the sheetrocking, insulation, roofing and light masonry work (including tiling in some cases) themselves and subcontract out trades such as electrical and plumbing which require expertise, licenses and are separately inspected. The GC builds a supervision fee into what he charges you for the subs work because he is taking on the administrative and possibly the legal responsibility for the work the sub does.
As a general rule, the larger the remodeler (and the job), the more work they sub out. Often it is cheaper to use a sheetrocker, painter, etc. than using your own crew, or so we were told when we had an addition built several years ago.
Also, with the benefit of twenty-twenty hindsight
I agree with Mike and CFA that this is best kept in private since the amount in question is very small, especially in relationship to a $100,000 job. |
shh
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 2213
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 9:17 am: |
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Greenie,
Not sure exactly how it works, but with this project, our GC was flexible enough to allow us to suggest plumbers and electricians of our choosing. Ends up our electrician was more costly than his, so we went the lesser expensive route, but we did use our plumbers who actually seem to have started (what seems to me) a nice working relationship—I think they've suggested each other for new projects.
GC's do need to be licensed, not sure if contractors do. Actually, I'm not sure what the title of "contractor" means if that person is not the GC. Maybe it emcompasses a variety of skills that could vary from person to person.
I think even with the highest regarded GC, anyone needs to be very thorough themselves. With our last major project, which went without a hitch, I realized there were a few little things I would have changed a bit had I been more hands on. (Of course I was 8 months pregnant and sleeping on a mattress on a floor in an 8x10 room, so I wasn't quite myself.)
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shh
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 2214
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 9:20 am: |
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Thanks Bob, for that insight.
I guess I don't understand why a "contractor" would not be a GC.
(Not being a pain, just inquisitive.) |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 3911
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:14 am: |
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Good luck Greenie. |
shoshannah
Citizen
Username: Shoshannah
Post Number: 745
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 11:18 am: |
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I agree with shh. Just show him the canceled check. What's the big deal? But before you do, ask him if he will agree to reimburse you the full amount if the canceled check proves that you paid what you said you paid. Then he will be satisfied that that is actually what you paid, and you will be satisfied by getting the full amount. |
mtierney
Citizen
Username: Mtierney
Post Number: 772
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
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As far as I know, a General Contractor is the head honcho - deals directly with the architect and owner.
The GC hires the sub -contractors, electricians, plumbers, etc. etc..,people with whom they have worked with in the past. Often they do not like to have other unknown subs brought into a job by the owner because they really do not want to "defend" their qualifications if it comes to that.
A GC has a solid working knowledge of all the trades which come into a project - he may not be a licensed electrician, for instance, but he knows good work from shoddy. He is knowledgeable on municipal codes.
The word contractor is now commonly substituted for what used to be referred to as a carpenter - "one who builds or repairs wooden structures". Why this change in reference? Probably because the carpentry field has been flooded with unskilled "wood butchers" who have created some public distrust. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 1480
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 3:27 pm: |
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I have to side with the Contractor here. If you’re not willing to show him the canceled check, how does he know that you didn’t tell your plumber “I’m not paying, charge what ever the hell you want.” He should then have to pay you a fair price.
Not that you would do something like that.
If you show him how much you paid for the original then he should be willing to pay that for the second one, even if he thinks you got screwed.
I don’t think the Contractor is calling you a lying cheating crook. He’s just watching his butt.
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LilRedCorvette
Citizen
Username: Lilredcorvette
Post Number: 186
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 5:34 pm: |
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All I want to know is:
What plumber would do a shower pan for $625? Every estimate I've had on the same thing was for at least twice that amount!?!?!
Although it's the principle of the thing, $300 hardly seems worth the aggravation. If you post who he is here (once the job is done of course) you can turn it into a positive by warning others who may be thinking of employing this GC.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 3928
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 7:07 pm: |
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Lil - I am not going to post the name of the person. If someone is thinking of using this person in particular and PLs me, I will give them the pros and cons that I experienced, including this latest round.
BTW - if you want the name of the plumber who gave the $305 estimate, PL me. I have it on letterhead and I know people who have used him and have had no complaints, so I have no reason to think it would be a problem. I personally have never met him or used him. But, I remember that you were looking for someone to do a shower pan rather recently.
Brett- I gave him the plumber's bill, addressed to me. Now, in order for the plumber to scam the contractor, I would have to participate.
As for the original cost, this replacement pan may or may not be more than the original. Not that it's anyone's business, but the plumber's work came out to around $10K for everything. It was probably cheaper for him to do the first pan as part of the larger project than as a stand-alone.
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LilRedCorvette
Citizen
Username: Lilredcorvette
Post Number: 187
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 8:41 pm: |
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Greenetree, I just PM'ed you. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 1481
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 8:14 am: |
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I'll try to be a little less accusatory in this post, because I've watch Greentree post, she usually wins 
The Contractor agreed to pay for the repairs if I'm correct, which was the right thing to do by everyone's account.
Greentree got the people that she was most comfortable having do the repairs, also the right way to do it.
So the work gets done and the Contractor sees the bill. In his estimation the pan is double what he thinks it should be.
So what do you think may go through his mind?
1. Greentree demands the best, and pays for it. (Who can doubt that?)
2. Greentree could care less what this cost because I'm footing the bill.
So the Contractor is concerned, and I think rightfully so. I imagine that he has to deal with quite a few charlatans in his line of work .
******* I did not just call Greentree a charlatan *******
So he's curious about what the first pan cost, but it's difficult to prove because the pan was part of a much larger project. So he pays what he thinks is fair, and now the two of you hash it out.
I think both of you are doing the right thing. But I do think you should share some of the burden of proving that that was not a ridiculous price to pay.
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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 1482
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 8:21 am: |
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Please don't hurt me.... |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 3933
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 8:43 am: |
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Brett - I feel it is only fair to tell you that I have retained the services of Sbenois Button Men, Inc. Please post your address and a picture so that they can more easily find you. They would charge me $320 more than I can afford to find you themselves.
I guess it's just a good thing that I didn't use Lil Red's plumber, huh? |
LilRedCorvette
Citizen
Username: Lilredcorvette
Post Number: 189
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
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Amen Greenetree. Glad u didn't go with my plumber too. Mucho doneros. 
I PM'ed you yesterday, asking for the name of your plumber but didn't hear back. So just in case you didn't get it, can you PM the details on the two plumbers who estimated both the $300 and something and the $625 for the shower pan?
Thanks!!! |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 3934
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 12:19 am: |
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Lil-
Sorry I didn't get back to you. I'm having trouble accessing my e-mail (I'm in a hotel). I'll send you the info over the weekend, if that's OK. |
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