| Author | Message | ||
     mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 5648 Registered: 5-2001  |
Hi Art! As long as there's booze and pancakes, count me in. Cheers! | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 6878 Registered: 5-2001 |
I like the fact that the TC votes for Mayor from among its members. This means that the Mayor who is finally selected will at least initially have the support or the majority of TC members and therefore a better chance of getting things which need doing passed by the TC. Imagine what would happen if the person elected Mayor by direct vote of the electorate were to be at odds with the TC members at-large? | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4655 Registered: 9-2001  |
Dear “S”, on this thread, this issue is Numero Ono, but first let me address your concerns. The Democrats have worried about taxes for years, but have spent more time fighting each other, than the tax issue. The matter of changing the town structure is NOT the Township Committee’s responsibility, and doesn’t require them to spend any time with it at all. FWIW, the concept of cameras, the problems with education and other issues is exactly where they should be spending their time. Listen, if you really want to see things the same, why not tell David that who ever sits in the Mayor's chair is unimportant. Also, that the annual scheming and plotting for control of the MDC has to stop. The bottom-line is, if there is to be change to the structure of town government, it’s up to the residents to decide. If the citizens committee finds value in moving forward, then getting 3,000 residents in favor of putting it on the ballot will be the first test. One more thing, the number and size of my pancakes has no limit, but the number and size of the Township Committee does... BTW, you’re in Mem, and you’ve got to come over someday for our Booze Brunch. We start with Frozen Mimosas and Fresh Strawberries soaked in Brandy. My furtive Harvey’s Bristol Cream “Boozecakes” are thick and fluffy, served with melted butter, and Hot Maple Rum Syrup. Dessert is Walnut Rum Cake and Irish Coffee. The only caveat is service is not until 12 noon, and a designated driver is required...  | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4656 Registered: 9-2001 |
“Imagine what would happen if the person elected Mayor by direct vote of the electorate were to be at odds with the TC members at-large?” Joan, the Mayor only votes in a tie, so I don’t see your point. As for the Mayor who has the support of the majority of TC members could be good or bad. It depends on who the Mayor is, and what he had to agree to do to get there… I always heard that part of the problem of electing all like minds, was getting all like results. If that’s all you’re looking for, why do we need five members on the township committee? In your case in point we would only need one person... | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 6883 Registered: 5-2001 |
Art: Under the Mayor - Council - Administrator form of government the Mayor is the Chief Executive Officer of the Municipality, much more so than in the Township government format we now have. The Mayor may not have a vote on the Council, except as a tie breaker but s/he is the one who has to carry out the programs/decisions reached by the council and this could be problematic if the Mayor and the remainder of the council have very different agendas. I don't see how a TC agreement amongst themselves on which one of them would serve as mayor is going to lead to a like-minded body where only one position counts. I do think that it is necessary for the Mayor to be able to work effectively with the other members of the governing board whether we are talking about a town council or a township committee. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2479 Registered: 6-2002 |
I know it's a cliche, but "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Having said that if there is going to be a "bi-partisan" or "non-partisan" committee, the MOLer I'd nominate would be Tom Reingold, who has no pre-conceived position and no affiliation to any of the current political players. Now, If I were to appoint the persons to run Maplewood I would appoint Sbenois for his superior brain, assisted by Joan Crystal because of her magnificent heart and Art would be a natural for "King of the Forrest".  | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11823 Registered: 1-2003  |
Thank you, anon. It's kind of you. One reason (among many) I don't want to get involved in local politics, at least not for a while, is that I'd end up having to declare allegiance to one faction or another. Remaining naive allows me to like people in all factions, and I do. Good points about sbenois and Joan. Joan is so very sensible as well as big-hearted, and sbenois is just so smart. Not that I'm saying Joan is dumb or anything. Far from it. | ||
| Crazyguggenheim Citizen Username: Crazyguggenheim Post Number: 871 Registered: 2-2002  |
Call me crazy, but I bet there's nothing in that black bag for me.  | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2481 Registered: 6-2002 |
You are Crazy. You have everything you need already! | ||
| mtierney Citizen Username: Mtierney Post Number: 893 Registered: 3-2001 |
This is not rocket science folks! At the 1/1 reorganization meeting, following his swearing in, Vic declared himself to be a liberal Democrat, interested in international issues, and in favor of mayor rotation. In the mayor's turn at bat, he offered the change of government plan. Profeta is out next time for sure (who will get the post?). He does have a fair crack out of winning an election, however. So, like I said, not rocket science here. Minipulating a change of government to achieve this seems a bit much. I would so love to see all that energy go toward LOCAL issues only! After all, we elect state and federal people to handle the rest. Vic, please, no nuclear or mid East concerns, just property tax relief! Thank you. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4658 Registered: 9-2001 |
...a brain like "S", a heart like Joan, and the courage of Tom Reingold; "bi-partisan", "non-partisan", and with no pre-conceived position or affiliation to any of the current political players… Perfect, I always wanted to be a King, and the Wizard of Arz. Thank you Anon, you must be Dorothy... | ||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 5109 Registered: 3-2002 |
Art, Thanks for the invite, but the more Ive considered the "issue", the more I see it as a non-issue relative to the more important matters facing the town. With so many folks with already limited time, it would be a shame to see the efforts of many, volunteers and elected officials, wasted on a non-essential item. If for some reason, a majority sees fit though to have a directly elected mayoralty, then I feel it would be only fair to have strict term limits and wards with elected representatives in the town...and since I dont believe wards are a good thing, I have a second reason to be against a direct election of mayor. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4659 Registered: 9-2001 |
..."it would be a shame to see the efforts of many, volunteers and elected officials, wasted on a non-essential item." Good point Hank, but why does this process have to exempt the more important matters facing the town. Personally, I don't see this to be a big deal or take a lot of time and effort. And, why would we need wards? IMHO, if the majority of towns in New Jersey vote to elect their mayors, and towns like Berkley Heights have recently joined them, then there must be some value in the process worth looking at. Why not just put a petition out there to see if three thousand residents are willing to put the question on the ballot? | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2003 |
There really needs to be a better explanation given for the need for this change. Should we really be following the example of Hillside, Irvington and Orange? Even the other towns noted are not places I would prefer to live. Fred's argument that one person potentially elects the Mayor is spurious. How would that be different with a popular election? If the Mayor was chosen by election and won the vote by 200 votes would you say the Mayor was elected by those 200 voters and the other 23,800 people in town had no say? Of course not. Ah, The Wizard of Arz. I like it Art. However, you may want to reconsider that moniker since it sounds an awful lot like the Wizard of Arse. Then again... | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4660 Registered: 9-2001 |
… I hope you're not suggesting I’m the Wizard of a town of Arse's are you? This would give rise to the question, “To be, or not to be an Arse”? I’ve only suggested that the town might analyze its options. Will residents be better served if our municipal system of government permitted a more active roll for voters to elect its Mayor? Is government by the people and for the people too cumbersome for the opponents unwilling to look at changing the present system? BTW, I believe your argument showing 200 votes vs. the lost voices of the remaining 23,800, you forgot to enter the other 11,900 who also voted… As with regards to Fred's argument, I find it to be genuine, not spurious. The issue of who and how our next Mayor may be chosen was made an issue in a recent News Record article. I find it difficult to understand what is unfair or wrong about proposing a more Democratic system? | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 4932 Registered: 10-1999  |
A township committee form of government (which we have now) is not less democratic than a mayor-council form of government. It's just different. The real question is, do people think the township committee form of government no longer works for Maplewood? | ||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 5113 Registered: 3-2002 |
Art, To answer your questions addressed to me... 1. I do think this would take a long time to debate..whether that debate was first taken up by a volunteer citizens committee or by the TC. Why? There are clearly two sides of thought on this already, perhaps even an irresistible force vs. an immoveable object...and then there is the conversation about what form of government to put in place if there is a directly elected mayoralty. I believe there are bigger fish to fry...in fact, the topic seems almost frivolous in contrast to other important topics. 2. Why wards? This is strictly my opinion and I am no political scientist, or rocket scientist. We are a largely unified town in many regards and a very divided town in some. I think the current government make-up helps diminish some division...1 or 2 TC members are elected every three years, which spreads things out a bit. If you have a mayor elected every four years instead, I think the perception alone will be that this is a much higher stakes election...and as we know, perceptions often become realities. This will favor a candidate with the support of the areas of town with the most money and/or volunteerism. Its not the potential votes that matter as much as the turn-out of potential voters and the campaign behavorial bar will certainly be lowered. If we think there is some disenfranchisement now because of a Democratic lock on the TC or where support comes from for various candidates, it will be magnified in a mayoral election. And I do not believe that any elected official since I have lived here has not had the entire town's concern at the top of their priorities, but with a directly elected mayor, it wont be long for some idiots to be bragging about the money/power thing, exacerbating the matter...once again, the perception/reality thing. To minimize the disenfranchisement, I think you would need specific representation to complement at-large representation, or some ward-type structure...and that would just create further division. So to me, this mayoral-led town government is a slippery slope...what we have isnt perfect to everyone, but its fine to me. | ||
| Straw06 Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6659 Registered: 10-2001  |
I've just now had an opportunity to view this thread and I just want to say that I am very proud of Fred Profeta. He happens to be the only Democrat I ever voted for and reading his post above validates my decision. Fred is the type of man who serves his community because he loves his community. That should be enough for all of us to at least give the man all the respect he deserves, even if you disagree with some of his decision making. On another point, I also want to say I agree with Hank Zona when he says he's no rocket scientist. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4661 Registered: 9-2001 |
"A township committee form of government is not less democratic than a mayor-council form of government." Sorry for the delay Nohero, but that's debatable... Nevertheless, you apparently recognize the real question is, “do the people think the township committee form of government no longer works for Maplewood?” So, how do we find out? The first question I think should be whether three people electing a Mayor and controlling the direction of the townships business, is as Democratic as residents voting directly for a Mayor and six individual committee persons? Clearly there is a difference of opinion on this Board. In recent years, the in-fighting for power within the Democratic Party in town has resulted in several hotly contested primary elections. Last month the call for another such election this year was sounded. Meanwhile, whenever the Democrats can’t agree among themselves, they allow the voters to decide by primary election anyway. The result of the primary fight decides who among this group will choose our next mayor… The most important result of this practice is that it effectively eliminates everyone but the Democratic Party from the process of electing the next mayor. Please keep in mind that besides all Republicans, the largest numbers of registered voters are Independents? Why are some people in the Democratic Party, and on this Board siding against voting for Mayor? Whatever their reasons, IMHO, making this decision in a small political caucus in someone’s living room rather than the voting booth is clearly not the most Democratic way to do it. Personally, I’d be among the first to say, if it’s not broken, don’t fix it. At this point I see the positive side of changing the system, however, I’m having a great deal of difficulty seeing a negative side. If nothing else, IMHO, the more people who have a say in how our government runs, the “MORE” Democratic our elections will be... | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4662 Registered: 9-2001 |
Hank, Honestly, I don’t see what more debate is necessary than what we are doing now. I’m also not so sure at this point we still need a volunteer citizens committee either. IMHO, that may be putting the horse before the cart. If we can find out if there are 3,000 voters interested in putting the question on the ballot, at that point we can involve a study group to see which elective system would serve us best. The question everyone seems most interested in so far is whether the voters would want to vote directly for their Mayor? I believe the only way we can find out is either through a town wide pole, or a having a group of residents interested in advancing this idea to get the necessary signatures to put it on the ballot. BTW, I don’t believe this is a frivolous or thoughtless matter, although I agree there are many important issues for the Township Committee to work on. However, I don’t see any reason why this should stop them. As for your personal opinion on having wards, I’m happy to leave it right there and leave it up to a committee if it comes time to put it on the ballot. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14402 Registered: 10-2001  |
I just appointed myself to be The Committee. The Committee just ruled that this issue is a waste of time. I just adjourned the Committee. I just reported the results. The issue is now closed. Thankey. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 4934 Registered: 10-1999 |
No, it's not debatable. We elect five members of the Township Committee. Each year, they select one of their number as chair - the person we call "Mayor". It's just a different form of government. It is not less democratic, and there's nothing wrong with the municipalities which have that form of government. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4664 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dear "S", you missed the election while you were wasting your time in committee... What are you afraid of anyway? I’d like you to address the issues and comments raised. Listen, it may already be too late as I just received the absentee ballots. The concept of “Fair and Balanced” elections for Mayor won in a landslide... Sorry pal! Nohero, the question is debatable... This is NOT just about the five members of the Township Committee. It's also NOT just about a different form of government. IMHO, the present system is less democratic, and this is the point you are not addressing... | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14403 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dearest Arturo, At this point, I think the people in Maplewood are, and should be, more concerned over which types of vegetables they should purchase during the Shop Rite Can-Can sale. With all the choices available, from creamed corn to okra, who has the time, or the interest, in figuring our whether our town's form of government should continue to operate in the same manner that has served it so well for over 80 years? Arturo, did you know that Shop Rite sells chick peas in at least three different areas of the store? You've got them in the regular old canned goods aisle, then they're in the Goya brands section (they're the bestest) and finally, you can get them in a bag and boil them!. I'm not even including the other mushed up variants to be found in the appy section where the hummus is! DAMN!! I know that you agree with me that making THIS protein-packed choice is by far more critical to even those of us who care about politics than voting for the Mayor ever will be. And I'm not even going to get into the hundreds of types of tomato soups, sauces or toppings that Shop Rite carries. It's too difficult to comprehend. So please don't bother us about this other dumb issue. | ||
| wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 1955 Registered: 5-2001 |
I buy you a beer (in aisle 7) for that one Mr. S.  | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2490 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'm sitting here eating lunch, so I find this thread about vegetables very interesting. But, sbenois, why are you thinking about vegetables at 1:11 am? And Wendy, thinking about beer at 6:37am? | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 6901 Registered: 5-2001 |
The hummus is available in at least three sections of the store: deli, appy and kosher. It is also available in many different varieties. There are so many choices we are faced with every day. Some seem much more vital than others -- at least at the time that particular decision is being contemplated. I agree with the above posters who have advocated the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" approach to this question. Maplewood has been getting along just fine with the form of government we have now and I still haven't heard any arguments indicating WHYwe as a township need to change the form of government now. I further agree that we need to devote our finite energy, money, time, and other resources to many more pressing issues than this. Art: We have a representative democracy in this country. This means that we get to vote for the people who get to make the decisions on behalf of us all. We all (at least those of us who are citizens and of voting age) get to vote for each of the TC members -- that's democracy. Having the entire voting public in town vote to select the person who should be chair of that committee wouldn't make our form of government any more or less democratic. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14405 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dearest Anon, May I ask you what you ate for lunch? It's another vitally important topic for me. Arturo, I am afraid that the Mayor thing is going to have to be put on the back-burner again because I need to understand exactly what Anon ate for lunch. If he can get me a quick answer, and if I can settle the Shop Rite Can-can sale issue, I might be able to focus on the mayor issue very soon thereafter. Oh wait, I just noticed that a large crate of pomegranates is sitting on my table and as you well know, I'm going to need to count the total number of seeds, five or six times just for precision. So I'm afraid that the mayor situation is just going to have to wait a wee bit longer. Thank you in advance for your understanding and consideration. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4667 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dear "S", don't worry. I'm working on it myself and will reply later tonight... | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4668 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dear “S”, I'm back... ...you are the bestest!!! I was thinking, then I was wishing, then I was praying someone would bring up the issue that our town’s form of government goes back for over 80 years. The simple fact is anyone with the brains of a chick pea can see our present form of government is flawed… as to whether it has served us well for 80 years is also debatable. So “S”, lets debate... First, you referenced 80 years as if it means something in the debate. Did you know that 80 years ago, a fellow by the name of John Scopes was arrested for teaching evolution? IMHO, the opportunity of political advancement in this community is seriously in doubt. As a favor to you and the other naysayers, I will extract, manipulate, and use portions the Tennessee's Dilemma by J.W. Krutch, for the purpose of diluting your position and supporting my own... Therefore, those who say that nothing of importance can be decided in Maplewood have at first glance, Sbenois on their side. And, even the tadpoles in Memorial Park will still lose their tails, regardless of whatever happens on this issue. It is perfectly clear that the question of the constitutionality of Maplewood law, the only tangible legal issue involved, will not be the chief one discussed, and due to the sale on chick peas, it might thus appear that this whole discussion threatens to become diffusely inconclusive. Now, before Roger Desiderio begins his cross-examination of prospective jurors, it’s clear he plans to prove that the teaching of Sbenois was not irreconcilable with a sufficiently liberal interpretation of the Bible, and hence was not a violation of law. FWIW, any theoretical situation used as a final authority upon political questions will thus not be questioned, and the right of the municipal court to control the teachings of Mayor Profeta will be left similarly unchallenged. However, the real problem raised is not legal but sociological. No verdict of a jury and no injunction of even the Supreme Court can change the fact that this debate is a symptom of the vast gulf which lies between two segments of our population. The question to be settled is the question of how this gulf may be bridged. In the centers of population men have gone on assuming certain points of view without realizing that they were living in a different world from that inhabited by a considerable portion of their fellow-citizens. Often they have been unconscious of the danger which threatened them at the inevitable moments when their two worlds should come in conflict. In Maplewood, the moment has arrived and a single battle will no more settle these issues than the World War settled the questions from which it arose. Of the reality of the dangers ahead there can be no question. The zeal of the fundamentalists has been enormously quickened by an anticipatory taste of triumph, and they will push any victory they may gain to the fullest possible extent. As to the basis of decent from the present system, one municipal legislator has already announced his intention to challenge the status quo. In its present form, the penalty for this violation has been a second three year sentence, avoiding the consequence of the Grodman rule of one term and out... In deference to the system, the conservative politicians will certainly continue their assault; and, unless the movement is definitely checked, the next 80 years will see our political system and our schools so shackled with legislation as to make them utterly worthless as institutions. The control of learning will pass into the hands of the uninformed and uneducated, thus our youth will leave the schools more ignorant than when they entered them, and the disenfranchised will scatter to the ends of the earth. When people cannot be educated they must be led. It is in leadership that the Democrats have failed to ensure a fair and balanced level of bi-partisan representation within the working body of their boards and committee’s. Left undisturbed, this exception to the present system would have bothered itself very little over the observations for the learning natural to all uneducated surrounding communities. A little courage might save the day. If the silent has the courage to say what they think, and if the enlightened support the community’s best interest, we might very well win. Instead they lay low. They decline the challenge; they refuse to make any effort to lead; they leave their opponents in undisputed possession of the field. Maplewood must reasonably conclude, as undoubtedly it has concluded in the past, that seven tenths of Maplewood voters are predisposed to complacency. Therefore, it is right to have no great confidence in politicians who ask for nothing except your money. If the time ever comes when they show a disposition to tell what they believe, we may possibly listen to them or discard them as an old shoe. In the courtroom of MOL, and in the News Record and Star Ledger reports of the proceedings thus far, Maplewood residents will be reminded of the situation into which this issue has drifted, and the ultimate result of this debate will depend upon whether or not we heed the reminders for the needs of a fully operational and functioning Democracy in our community. No members of the sitting governing body can do much for us if they will do nothing to help themselves. We, those of us in favor of change, may win this case or we may lose it, but an ignorant population, almost wholly without leaders of vision, will remain. I yield back my time to the board... | ||
| Fruitcake Citizen Username: Fruitcake Post Number: 257 Registered: 9-2003 |
Give me a big fat break. Sheesh. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14406 Registered: 10-2001 |
Urgent: does anyone know the number of the Appy Department of the Shop Rite in West Orange? Arturo, I'll get back to you when I figure out if the olives are better in a can or when fresh. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4195 Registered: 5-2001 |
I wouldn't hit a dog in the ••• with canned olives, but that's just me. Some people obviously enjoy them, but I think they taste like soggy cardboard. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11945 Registered: 1-2003 |
Fresh olives are inedible. They must be eaten pickled. I once ate olives off a tree, and my facial muscles hurt for hours afterwards because of the bitterness. With that said, they are better when recently pickled and not from a can. Crane's Deli in Maplewood has some superb olives. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4669 Registered: 9-2001 |
"Having the entire voting public in town vote to select the person who should be chair of that committee wouldn't make our form of government any more or less democratic." Maybe, maybe not Joan... Listen, I know how some people tend to shy away from change, but I have problems with some of the comments below. There has to be more to it. They just don't ring true... “Who has time?” “No, it's not debatable.” "If it isn't broken, don't fix it" “It’s worked fine for the past 80 years.” “There are more important things to do.” “We have a representative democracy…” “Town government is a slippery slope...” “I believe there are bigger fish to fry...” “The topic seems almost frivolous in contrast to other important topics.” “Maplewood has been getting along just fine with the form of government” “I see it as a non-issue relative to the more important matters facing the town.” “We get to vote for the peoplewho get to make the decisions on behalf of us all.” Does this mean you would prefer to have the members you elect to congress elect your President too? Personally, I've got a problem about abdicating our responsibilities. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. When people are reluctant to make decisions on their own they get someone else to do it for them. A few common examples are, "Go ask your father!" Or, how about, "I'll have to check with my wife first!" Given some of the comments, I wouldn’t be surprised if some people elect members to the Board of Education to have them decide when and how to teach their children about sex education. Listen, the News Record article on the front page yesterday shows the stage is set, the sides are drawn, and the fix is in. We’re headed for another primary fight. It’s all about divide and conquer. On the left we have the challenger DePalma wearing the black trunks, and in the center, the incumbent Leventhal wearing the white trunks. Meanwhile, sitting in their respective corners we have Huemer, DeLuca, Pettis, and Profeta. IMHO, this pending power struggle will defeat every comment from the dissenters listed above in red. The posters have chosen sides, and rather than vote directly for the next Mayor, residents will vote for whom they believe will select the next Mayor. So who’s kidding who? All the bluster about having no time to change the system, if it isn't broken, don't fix it, and there are more important things to do..... are all a lot of nonsense…. Sbenois, get serious. Do you really want us to believe that Maplewood voters prefer all the distractions, posturing, and in-fighting over who will be Mayor in the months to come, or do you still feel, the people in Maplewood are, and should be, more concerned over which types of vegetables they should purchase during the Shop Rite Can-Can sale? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14412 Registered: 10-2001 |
The can-can sale is far more important. So is the pomagranate seed count. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 5659 Registered: 5-2001 |
What happened to the booze and pancakes? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11950 Registered: 1-2003 |
Art, I think the subtext here is that it's not a perfect system, but neither is anything else, and any weaknesses hinge a heck of a lot more on the people we elect than on the form of government. And of course, WE are responsible for the people we elect. | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 6903 Registered: 5-2001 |
Art: We do not elect the President of the United States directly. We vote for the members of the electoral college who vote for the President of the United States. That is why the commentators on election night continually refer to the number of electoral college votes each State has. I thought you knew this. Are you suggesting that a form of representative democracy which has worked so well for our nation for so many years isn't good enough for Maplewood where it has worked so well for so many years? Sbenois: I don't have the phone number for the Shoprite in West Orange but I can probably find one for the Shop Rite in Livingston. Will that do? By the way, are the olives under discussion stuffed or plain, black or green and does either factor impact on whether they are better fresh or canned, pickled or not pickled? | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 4935 Registered: 10-1999 |
West Orange Shop Rite has the big kosher food aisle, and the kosher deli, though. |
