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Message |
    
Lucy
Supporter
Username: Lucy
Post Number: 3298
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:37 pm: | 
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Monster well said we can only hope. |
The BARD
Citizen
Username: The_bard
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 9:54 am: |
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I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
Speed open your purse, that the money and the matter may be both at once delivered.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4860066.stm
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teddytwotimes
Citizen
Username: Anothernewguy
Post Number: 24
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
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Monster youre right I did bring up beauty, my bad....I should not type so fast in defense of art.
And I understand there is a question of government honesty here Dave, but obviously for many there is also an issue with the merits of the piece, as shown in the first half of this thread.
As a newcomer to town and this issue, I do not have the whole story on this piece, so please forgive me for this....but I still hope it happens, (especially since I live in M-wood and don't have to pay for it!) |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1501
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 12:17 pm: |
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Teddy you are on the road to recovery. Just a few more poundings and I'm sure you will ready to just give up entirely. |
teddytwotimes
Citizen
Username: Anothernewguy
Post Number: 25
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 2:19 pm: |
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well its not really my fight as a Maplewoodite, but....
the sculpture rocks...keep up the good work BOT!!! |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1513
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 6:22 pm: |
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I would pay good money to see you do that in the SO section. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 3176
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 12:55 pm: |
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Teddy - I love this sculpture.. still not convinced of the venue in which they chose to place it, but I love the sculpture. HOWEVER - you've lost all credibility with me when you indicate that the SoOrBOT's lies and deception are "good work". The South Orange budget is not where it should be - if it were, I'd have no problem with funding artwork as long as it was presented honestly and the public had an opportunity to opine.
The newly elected Devaris, Moore-Abrams & Jennings have a real opportunity in their hands. They can allign themselves with the deceipt and self-interest of Calabrese & Co. or they can take their 3 votes and stand against him for the good of the Village. I'm not just talking about the sculpture, but of all the "coming soon" areas. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 5925
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 1:54 pm: |
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The average cost to build a bus shelter is between $10k - $20k, so we could have 25 - 50 bus shelters for the cost of that monstrosity.
$500k could help out a lot of low income families, or build a lot of homes in New Orleans. |
jeep
Citizen
Username: Jeep
Post Number: 70
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 3:01 pm: |
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Maybe Maplewood can turn it into another nail salon. Or Pizza place. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 480
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 4:47 pm: |
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I'm glad my hunk'o'junk was mentioned. nyuk nyuk nyuk |
teddytwotimes
Citizen
Username: Anothernewguy
Post Number: 26
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 4:58 pm: |
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Nice one jeep! We need more salons!
I wonder how many cute gas lamps this money would buy too! |
Mtam
Citizen
Username: Mtam
Post Number: 84
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 8:47 pm: |
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Personally I'd be honored to have the sculpture in either town--I don't care about the back story so much. I was and am an admirer of Smith's work from long ago. He's a huge presence in modern art and it was a kick to me to learn he lived in SO all those years. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 273
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 9:02 pm: |
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Mtam -
Please send in your donation. The larger, the better (for us SO taxpayers).
Ask your friends for donations too.
Thank you.
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Mtam
Citizen
Username: Mtam
Post Number: 90
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 9:05 am: |
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We all pay through tax dollars. And I'm saying that this is something I appreciate and don't mind those dollars going to. If you don't, that's your perogative. I've stated mine. The way it was handled by the town was unfortunate. But that doesn't take away from the fact that I, personally, think it's worth it. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1713
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 9:12 am: |
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I sense that a can of whoop ••• is being opened somewhere close by as I am typing this. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 276
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:13 am: |
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If you're a MW taxpayer, you aren't paying.
If you personally think it is worth it, step up or shut up. |
teddytwotimes
Citizen
Username: Anothernewguy
Post Number: 28
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 4:24 pm: |
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ouch 1969.....Mtam is just stating her opinion - which does not require a financial contribution to SO's public art spending. Try redirecting the attitude your elected officials.
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Frederick Schmid
Citizen
Username: Carlfrederick
Post Number: 37
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 4:48 pm: |
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SO1969, teddytwotimes is correct, and because I believe in full disclosure, please note that I have lodged a complaint with Jamie about your inappropriate remark. As teddy states, everyone is entitled to an opinion and is invited to freely contribute their thoughts. MOL is a community project to benefit the community. Everyone should be encouragted to participate without being dumped upon. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 277
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 5:09 pm: |
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I'm not sure what Jamie or Dave will do with your complaint.
I'm guessing they'll recognize that I'm calling Mtam on her hypocrisy.
FS - you're a big booster. I expect to see your name on the donor list as well. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 278
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 5:26 pm: |
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Teddy
I think this says it all about you:
"As a newcomer to town and this issue, I do not have the whole story on this piece, so please forgive me for this....but I still hope it happens, (especially since I live in M-wood and don't have to pay for it!) "
Frankly, your attitude is very similar to many of the project's supporters in S.O. Rather than 200 ardent supporters stepping up and writing $2,500 checks, they're sticking the other 16,000 of us with the bill.
Rather than finding a location that wouldn't require several hundred $K in demolition and site prep, they're sticking the rest of us with the bill.
For those of you that think it is okay to pay for Tau with governmental funds, I suggest you first tour our library, the Baird Center and our village hall, and that you do the tour on roller blades on our village streets - enter SO via Prospect Street for a full flavor of the need for Streets & Sidewalks - the stated purpose of the bond proceeds that are going to this project.
Also, as a final check on your thinking, please Google to find examples of any comparable art purchase by a governmental body in the US. This is the equivalent of the State of New Jersey buying a $300 to $600 million work of art.
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Frederick Schmid
Citizen
Username: Carlfrederick
Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 5:56 pm: |
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SO1969 -- Who knows what Jamie and Dave will do with my complaint, that is their decision, but I have a right to complain when I see inappropriate behavior. As far as contributing, I will consider that, but my action will depend upon my family's interest in the project not your implied threat or intimidation. However, believing in the advantages and desireability of the Smith sculpture for South Orange and the surrounding communities is my right with or without your permission.
SO1969 -- make you a deal, lets both run for the BOT of South Orange and see who wins. |
Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 158
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 6:06 pm: |
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SO1969 is right on many levels.
Personally I am upset that this is being done for the "betterment" of our town, citing approval by the majority of residents etc etc, when the majority of this town seemed to know nothing about it.
Financially, although I am not privvy to all the financial goings on in this town, I am upset as I see so much more that this money could be used for. As SO1969 states, walk our streets, look at our buildings that are becoming more and more dilapidated...
Look at buildings which are being knocked down and now the owners/developers/redevelopers etc are not required to pay property tax. Expenditure is going through the roof while income has dried up. Buildings and projects that were slated to have income coming in in 2006 aren't even off the ground.. We are hearing about a tax increase of 10-13%... why? Can you image how we feel about that when we know the town is throwing money at Tau and then asking us to pay for more for our towns upkeep?
Maplewood is paradise compared to South Orange....
I said before, "TAU' has become a symbol of everything wrong in this town, and that is unfair. It is unfair to the people who have worked so very hard to get this project off the ground, and it is unfair to the residents and taxpayers of South Orange who watch more and more of their town looking like swiss cheese (full of holes), coming soon signs, boarded up areas where stores/properties used to stand. and they propose tearing down something else that that was put up to "improve" our town to put up Tau?
I find it inconcievable that the Village president just sits there along with the other trustees and maintains that they are there for us. Well they are not there for me. They are not there for my family... Where were they when my youngest caught her foot on a bad sidewalk down Vose on the sidewalk and badly grazed her knees and chin? Her chin now has a scar. Where are they when I walk through the town with my kids and they say Mum, this town looks dirty. Where are they when my children go into substandard restroom at school, with garbage cans just waiting to tear into their hands? Where are they when water is coming though the roof in the library? Best of all, particularly in view of "TAU" I don't see any sign of our trustees anywhere near the Baird centre with dollars in hand to repair this badly eroding structure.
The last thing we need is Maplewood and South Orange at each others throats. It's "Fun" to poke a finger at us and laugh at us with Tau. Someone said let us build it and then take it to the recycling centre. Someone else said you would take the cellphone tower over this, another said it looks like a bus shelter. Others expressed other opinions, for and against. Art will always evoke strong feelings, but bottom line, this is NOT about the art - it all comes down to ineptitude.
I've said it before, I have nothing against art. what I am against is reckless government.
I would never make a good trustee. I would certainly never make a good VP. I believe in standing up and taking the blame WHEN I have made a mistake. I am the worlds worst at taking the blame for something that is not down to me. VP calabrese, if you are reading this, why not stop all this now? What not stand up and give us the truth? Trustees, if you are reading this, and I know at least one of you reads and posts on MOL, give us the facts. Our town looks as though is has gone so far downhill it can never recover.
At the meeting on Monday you were all credited with being intelligent. All having a vision for our town. All wanting the best for South Orange, well, at least that is what you told the people who voted you in. I ask you now, stand up and show us that our faith in you in not misplaced.
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SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 279
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 8:05 pm: |
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While my tone may offend you, my point is simple:
If you think Tau is worth spending money on - take some out of your pocket.
Otherwise, you're saying it is worth spending OTHER people's money on it. Which isn't saying much.
Just good old fashioned "put your money where your mouth is." Is that less hurtful to the ears/eyes?
FS, if you're a SO resident - and it now seems you are - then you're welcome to say you're already contributing in your prop taxes - now and for 30 years to come. If you run for office - and more important, if you win - I hope you will understand - unlike our current BOT - that spending money means making choices. To paraphrase the immortal words of Rush, if you fail to make a choice, you still have made a choice.
Choosing to fund Tau now means you think it is more important than all of the other needs that aren't being funded. Period.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1693
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 8:48 pm: |
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My observation is that Maplewood residents are much more tax conscious than SO residents, and also that the Maplewood TC is likewise. Witness the fact the municipal budget, which was originally to be introduced calling for an 8.5% increase, was not approved by the TC. In the meantime, SO has introduced a budget calling for a 13.5% increase. My guess is that anything similar would have had a much more difficult time being approved by the residents and TC in Maplewood. There may be some Maplewood residents who think that Tau is wonderful, but I seriously doubt that it would have been approved in Maplewood.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3884
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 9:37 pm: |
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Maplewood Residents, here is picture of the inside of the South Orange Library taken last week when it was raining:
If this were your house, wouldn't you fix this before spending a half million dollars on a sculpture? |
Monster©
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 2797
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
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This is directed to the South Orange Township Village Officials,
Fix the fsckin' Library already, fix Town Hall, fix the streets, fix etc....
A freakin' moronic imbecile that smells like a dead dogs crap can figure out that the money should be spent on other things before any thought is even given to an ugly hunk of metal.
I took the time to put this in terms that my six year old Monster Son could understand, explained the whole thing as best I could to him.
His response when asked what he thought about the people who insist on spending the money on the sculpture, in his own words, "What are they, Stupid! that's dumb! we should kick their butts!"
He was at the SO library last weekend I believe it was (or early this week) when it was raining, he kept saying that "they should fix that", referring to the leaky roof.
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Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1755
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:09 pm: |
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I guess I was right about that can of whoop •••.
Frederic, just so you know I HATE when people tattle tale to the administrators of MOL. We should be able to police ourselves. I am guessing that Dave and Jamie have better things to do then answer every little ridiculous whine and complaint. Like live their lives. Having said that, I think it's great that you came to that person's defense. I actually respect it a lot.
I also think it's funny (or is ironic the right word?) that you guys are in the Maplewood section of this board complaining about your dilapidated library. Think about folks, your talking to Maplewood residents about the library. That's the place that our Town Council cut back the night and weekend hours so that working people couldn't even use it. Remember that? That was just last year right? |
teddytwotimes
Citizen
Username: Anothernewguy
Post Number: 29
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 2:04 pm: |
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Putting aside the core issue of BOT trust/responsibility (and my joking thereof), I think that pitting arts funding against other community needs is an unfair simplification of the issue.
Choosing to fund Tau does not also endorse a leaky library roof.
If those before us had always taken the pragmatic line we would not enjoy so much of what makes MW and SO special today. Making the tough choice here is a courageous investment in the future, not an affront to the current quality of life.
By the way, our national arts spending of 0.13 percent is well below international standards, although our GNP is well above,(according to the NEA). I understand this project is closer to 0.2 percent of the SO budget.
To SO1969:
If your only goal is to encourage public donations for Tau, you are not doing a very good job of it.
"Put up or shut up" hardly encourages people to open their wallets, nor do your personal attacks.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3906
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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Teddy,
This $500,000 project, with a $25 million budget in South Orange comes to 2 percent by my calculation.
What other town of 17,000 people spends 2 percent of it's budget on a single sculpture? (while the library roof is leaking, the roads/curbs/sidewalks are crumbling and the government LIES about the source of the funding) |
teddytwotimes
Citizen
Username: Anothernewguy
Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 4:21 pm: |
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MHD,
Sorry for the typo, I know youre right, it's 2 percent not .2 percent.
My point is; because its higher than normal for public arts spending, its all the more courageous as an investment in SO's future.
If the project is unpopular, or if there are other outstanding public works projects, is irrelevant to me when it comes to the arts, and it would be if it were in MW also.
As I said, this is putting aside the "government lies" issue, which admittedly is an important component of this debate.
-----------------
"The work of art with what might be called prophetic vision is doing more for art than the public authority that plays for safety and gives the public what the public does not object to." - Henry Moore
"The past is of no importance. The present is of no importance. It is with the future that we have to deal. For the past is what man should not have been. The present is what man ought not to be. The future is what artists are."-Oscar Wilde
"The public history of modern art is the story of conventional people not knowing what they are dealing with." -Golda Meir
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3910
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 4:28 pm: |
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Can you explain how you define "courageous"?
BTW, are you aware that South Orange is ALSO facing a 13.5% municipal tax increase this year? Are you aware that one of the reasons for this massive increase is because the bonds have come due from the LAST TIME South Orange re-did the exact same part of town (Sloan Street) with debt?
Spending $500,000 on a single sculpture while in a fiscal crisis is completely irresponsible. |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 1166
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 5:47 pm: |
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South Orange's future looks pretty bleak right now. Teddy's take on this sculpture is so airy and dismissive of the real concerns of the residents of South Orange. This sculpture is going to do absolutely nothing for the future of South Orange except push us right into bankruptcy. South Orange used to be a nice town. You could drive into town and find a parking space. You could walk along the street and look into shop windows, and maybe buy a few groceries for dinner. You could go to the library without worrying that pieces of the ceiling were going to come down on your head. The sidewalks weren't blocked with trash and construction fences. The buildings weren't decaying. We need that back again. We need to be a viable town again. How will a massive metal sculpture that we can't afford get that for us? |
teddytwotimes
Citizen
Username: Anothernewguy
Post Number: 31
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 6:00 pm: |
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If one believed that the Arts were essential to the promotion of human societies, and lived in a culture where they often are not cherished as such, I think community support of a costly public arts project during a time of fiscal crisis could be the very definition of courageous. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 284
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 6:24 pm: |
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T2X
I'm sorry...I missed my personal attacks. Can you point me to them?
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SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 285
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 7:06 pm: |
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Teddy -
While you're looking for those, please also think about a list of specifics that you had in mind when you said:
"If those before us had always taken the pragmatic line we would not enjoy so much of what makes MW and SO special today."
Please list those non-pragmatic things our fore-mothers and fathers invested in...I think what you'll find is most, if not all, of them were pragmatic things, done with taste or done with the good judgment of what was befitting what our towns were or desired to be. I'm struggling to find an example of something historical in either town that is analogous to Tau. Apparently you think Tau is analogous and that is where we part. Please enlighten me.
What I have on my side, however, is that this project - as noted by many posters above - is totally outside the norm for municipal/state/federal government in this country in terms of its cost as a % of our budget. Of course, that doesn't matter to you. What you have on your side is that our BOT doesn't care that there are no known comparables - not even in very rich towns where every street is well paved and the library has hours convenient to all - and it also fails to see the logic that spending money on Tau, by definition, means not spending money on other things. |
teddytwotimes
Citizen
Username: Anothernewguy
Post Number: 32
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:42 am: |
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SO1969
I find copy/pasting older postings in bulk from the same thread boring and obnoxious....you can scroll up and re-read yourself.
There are too many examples to list of public artwork within both our sister towns....please consider while looking again what things in our buildings and landscape need not be in place to allow only utilitarian function.
If you must classify, try to also consider factors beyond style, physical scale, and financing when drawing analogies.If further enlightenment is needed perhaps you might visit the aforementioned library.
You're right in that I don't care about known comparables. This kind of status quo thinking is antithetical to true Art, which is all I am speaking out for here. I am claiming Art is a "real concern" of SO residents, and I believe that most would agree.
But perhaps Lizzie is right...and my position is too airy for this thread. I thought it was about "who wanted to see the Tony Smith Sculpture in Maplewood"...but its really a venue for venting about fiscal woes.
Where is "The BARD" with some more inspiration when you need it?
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mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6074
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 5:41 pm: |
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Back to the title of this thread, I was sniffing a fresh batch of glue the other day, and something popped in my head, kind of like a short circuit, you know? And suddenly I realized that I really liked that sculpture of the bus shelter.
Sigh. |
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