| Author | Message | ||||||||||
     MAPLE Citizen Username: Maple1234 Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2003 |
Apparently our five elected officials are trying to substantially raise our property taxes again on the west side of town with the idea of a new reval. I pay $20,000 a year up from under $12,000 when I moved here in 1997. I feel we pay more than our fair share yet once again they are trying to get water from a rock. Committee members I have a message for you stay out of my pockets they have been picked enough! By the way what do I get for $20,ooo a year, run down schools and fields and parks of need of repair. | ||||||||||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2006 |
Maple- It is probably a re-assessment and they are also doing one in Millburn in 2007. I would go to your TC meeting and ask why they are doing a re-assessment at this time and how they perceive it benefits your town. Get the facts and then decide whether you are against it or not. | ||||||||||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7342 Registered: 5-2001 |
Factvsfiction: From what I understand, it is a new revaluation which is proposed. You can verify this easily enough by going to Maplewood's town website and checking the agenda for the last meeting of the TC. The problem is that the coefficient of deviation throguhout town is now proported to have reached over 15%. Maple: I know a great many people said and thought this in 2000 but if you are already paying more real property tax than most, it is possible, especially with more sharply rising real property values in the parts of town now paying the lowest amount of real property tax, that you may end up paying less real property tax as a result of a new revaluation. Revaluations should not add to the amount of taxes that need to be collected (changes in tax rate accomplish this) rather, they should result in redistributing the portion of the taxes paid (based on comparative real property value) of each property subject to paying real property taxes. | ||||||||||
| letters Citizen Username: Letters016 Post Number: 526 Registered: 5-2005  |
Joan, I agree with you. I think that the values of houses on the east side (oh know, not the east v west again) have increased percentage wise more than the west. I have no data to support this, it's just an opinion. That said I fear that the reval can be used as a way to disguise yet another tax increase by redistributing the numbers, thereby confusing the issue of what the number of dollars being collected really is. Personally, I think (and I thought this was supposed to happen) we should use one of those models that adjust the numbers every year. I have read about them and know that many places use them. If I understand the philosophy of it, the numbers are adjusted yearly based on certain criteria and then every so often, 5-10 years, a reval such as the one we did before and are proposing again is done to make any corrections needed. I think that this would ease any pain of a sudden change in taxes, like going from 12k to 20k in one year. Although I think it was overdo, I also believe that it was absurd to think that everyone would be OK with it. I think Vic can attest to this. I知 guessing that the town took the reval out on him and booted him off the TC. That wasn稚 a fair thing to do since it was way overdo and he made the tough decision to do it. Now, whether or not it was done as well as it should have been is one of those things that if you ask 100 people, you will get 100 different answers. | ||||||||||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11357 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have been posting about this for years. What happened to the software we bought from Certified in connection with the 2000 Reval? This should allow an adjustment of taxes by VCS without the cost of another revaluation. I think SO is talking about a coll $500,000 or so for the cost of their upcoming reval. In connection with selling our house last year I went through the sales for the first six months as provided in a mailer by one of our local Realtors. In the area we lived in, the VCS inclding Roosevelt Park, the average sale price in relation to the assessed value was much lower than for the rest of the Town. This may change. At present it seems most of that neighborhood is for sale. People are asking $1,000,000 and over for houses with assessments in the $550,000 plus range. If they get these prices the imbalance may end. Now that I am out of it I would suggest caution. To increase taxes substantially in the Hilton and east of Boyden area might kill the revitalization of those areas and while the so called West Side has become a haven for Wall Streeter that may not be all bad. | ||||||||||
| meluga Citizen Username: Meluga Post Number: 82 Registered: 6-2001 |
It seems like no one has heard about the real estate bubble in town.. There seems to be an increase in inventory but reasonably priced properties seem to move. A million dollar house is becoming increasingly common. | ||||||||||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 140 Registered: 4-2006 |
Joan- I would think it would be an error in terminology used on the web site, as why would a town go to the greater cost of a re-val after only 5 or so years, and without your proposed development in place? Re-assessments do not involve the same expense as a re-val. The % change in appreciation may justify a re-assessment. On the SO thread Rastro and I have had a gentleman's disagreement over the property tax impact of SO's re-val, but my sense from looking at sales has been that there has been a significant increase in appreciation above the village. I would think there are property owners in Maplewood who can expect to pay more, regardless of whether their homes were technically under-assessed the last time. Since appreciation based on current home sales may now be in the process of being tempered by higher mortgage rates, decline in buyers etc, perhaps someone in your town can present and make a compelling argument to delay until 2008 at least. In Millburn the re-assessment was supposed to be this year, but was delayed until 2007. IMHO here the re-assessment is coming from the Mall tax appeal settlement and the need to be able to appraise it properly on a re-assessment. What are your town's reasons for the new appraisals? | ||||||||||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7351 Registered: 5-2001 |
As I stated above, the trigger for the proposed revaluation is the coefficient of deviation throughout the town equaling or exceeding 15%. With all of the problems Maplewood faced the last time a reval was done, I am certain that nobody would want to approach one so soon if it weren't legally required. | ||||||||||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7469 Registered: 5-2001  |
We live in the section that was supposed to stay flat in the last reval, in 2000 (?). Our taxes have increased 65% since we moved here in 1997, to over $12k. We live near Boyden. TS and I can pretty nuch find jobs wherever we want. Another reval will definitely force us out within the next 5 years. | ||||||||||
| letters Citizen Username: Letters016 Post Number: 529 Registered: 5-2005 |
Bob K, When I bought my house 10 or so years ago I paid 170 for it (I think the market had hit rock bottom that day, yahoo). Right now I could get around 500 for it. That approx 300% increase. I think, and could be wrong, that the west side also probably grew about 300% in that same time frame. Am I right, I'm just guessing? But the east side has has the same increqase in the last 5 years. Again, this is a guess, but I think that this is correct. Which is why I made my previous post. | ||||||||||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11360 Registered: 5-2001 |
Letters, the percentage increase for us is roughly the same as your 170k/500k example, except we owner our house for over 18 years when we sold. Vic and Jerry calling for the reval was a gutsy thing to do and, as I have said before, has probably benefited Maplewood. However, the devil is in the details and how the reval was conducted. | ||||||||||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5040 Registered: 9-2001  |
...who's kidding who? It's a well known fact that a reval is just another way government gets to hide yet another tax increase! IMHO, and I know there are many other opinions to the contrary, but a continuing and professional monitoring of the individual sales in town is all that is needed; which in the majority of cases, with other accepted and appropriate adjustments, allows the actual market to determine taxable real estate values... | ||||||||||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 145 Registered: 4-2006 |
Joan- There is no automatic legal compulsion for a municipality to re-assess or re-val properties when town appreciation has reached a certain level. Newark avoided this for years and had to be sued to perform a re-eval. Even then I believe one councilman wanted to hire someone to help residents with their tax appeals! I think you should call your townhall on Monday and ask whether a re-assessment or re-val is being sought. It would suprise me greatly if it was a re-val, which would, IMHO, raise issues about your last one. As props to ajc I won't get into the politics of either. ajc- A lot depends on your tax rate, coming from the budget. A new appraisal of properties should result in a higher cumulative value of town properties, decreasing the cost of the budget via the tax rate. It does not necessarily mean that all homeowners will pay less. The key questions to ask are what spending is needed or anticipated. For example, will there be certain costs arising from your development plans? Is there anything specific under the contracts with municipal employees that will kick in? As you are a republican in a democratic town you can certainly be a watchdog for the benefit of other residents on taxes and such. | ||||||||||
| marian Citizen Username: Marian Post Number: 799 Registered: 9-2001 |
MAPLE, Relax and take a look at the article in this week's News-Record about this issue. The coefficient of deviation is over 15%. That would call for a reval as a matter of good practice, but I don't think it's mandatory until 10 years have past since the last one. As we learned in the last reval, is a good idea to do them sooner rather than later, because then the increases and decreases are smaller in magnitude and less disruptive. In addition, because the market values respond to the new tax increases and decreases which result from a reval, the rates of increase around town tend to equalize and fewer revals are then called for. What generally happens after a reval is that the areas which got a decrease go up in value at a faster rate than the ones that got an increase. Not surprising, that is exactly what has happened in Maplewood -- most home values east of Springfield Ave. have gone up faster than other areas of town. If you read the News-Record article, you'll find out that the Township Committee does NOT have enough market data yet to justify any reval decision, and that is why they want an expert to take a look at the numbers. In fact, Mayor Profeta was quoted in the article as saying: "If we were to do a reval based on the advice of an expert, it appears, generally speaking, that those homes that got a tax increase the last time would get a tax decrease this time, and vice versa." (Emphasis added.) | ||||||||||
| Dogbert Citizen Username: Dogbert Post Number: 93 Registered: 1-2006  |
The state publishes all the coefficients of deviation. All the numbers for essex county may be found in this page (PDF) Maplewood's for the last several years:
Those numbers are all the General Coefficient, but Maplewood is so overwhelmingly residential that it tracks the class 2 (resdential) coefficient very closely within half a point reliably. Someone asked about the software for doing neighborhood adjustments. It's my understanding (I heard this from Mayor Profeta) that subsequent case law has prohibited such partial revals. I don't know if this means we paid for software we couldn't use. | ||||||||||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13951 Registered: 1-2003  |
greenetree, your last sentence seems to imply that a reval would raise your taxes. Is that what you believe? If so, why? | ||||||||||
| hch Citizen Username: Hch Post Number: 247 Registered: 8-2002 |
The town can't hide a tax increase within a reval. The reval redistributes how the tax pie is divided between all of the property owners in town. The size of the tax pie is decided separately based on how much the total tax bill is when you add county, municipal, and school budgets together. You can easily track both just by paying attention to your tax bill and paying attention to town meetings. Personally, I'm not sure why the TC would want to go down this road again only 5 years later. | ||||||||||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11363 Registered: 5-2001 |
Two points: Since the coefficient of deviation is, five years after a very expensive reval, hovering around 15 I think this is proof that the 2000 reval was horribly flawed. It recognized the run up in values in one part of town, but not another because of timing and Vic, Jerry and the rest of the people on the TC as well as the assessor approached the problem with preconcieved notions. Second, revals, by themselves, are revenue neutral. However, in 2000 the TC also pushed through a very large tax increase under, presumably, the theroy that nobody would notice. | ||||||||||
| Dogbert Citizen Username: Dogbert Post Number: 94 Registered: 1-2006 |
>>Since the coefficient of deviation is, five years after a very expensive reval, hovering around 15 I think this is proof that the 2000 reval was horribly flawed. Bob, I have to say this is one of the most illogical statements I've ever seen. How on earth do you draw such a conclusion? | ||||||||||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11366 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dogbert, look at the table you yourself posted. Look at the CODs for towns that haven't had a reval in over ten years, including West Orange, The Caldwells, Bloomfield and even South Orange. Being in a position to have to even think about another reval because of the COD after just five years, to me at least, is indicative the 2000 reval wasn't done very well, especially since the problem seems to be an overassessment of one part of town and the underassessment of another. Both are points that were debated during the reval process. | ||||||||||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4837 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'd say it was proof that it was necessary. The change in tax burden east/west altered the relative rate that sale prices increased, quite predictably, but things had been so out of balance that it overcompensated. Frequent adjustments are going to be necessary to get things stable. After years of stagnation, my property finally started to increase in value post-reval. It recognized the runup in one part of town but not the other because there was no runup over here. If you guys want to fight a new one, be my guest. | ||||||||||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 1093 Registered: 7-2001 |
Coefficent, deviation, reval, don't know much about arithmetic, but I do know if the TC starts one of these things again there is going to be about 800 for sale signs aroud town, including mine. Enough is enough . | ||||||||||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7470 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom - simplisticly, in the last reval, our house was assessed at about 268 (?). It was last appraised at a much higher amount. If the whole idea of a reval is that assessments are grossly undervalued, how could my taxes not go up? Unless I'm missing something, which is quite possible. | ||||||||||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13974 Registered: 1-2003 |
I believe assessments for the purpose of taxes do not aim to reach fair market value. The assessed value merely represents the property's value relative to other properties' values. If everyone's assessed value goes up, taxes don't go up. Taxes go up by raising the tax rate. So yes, you are missing something totally fundamental. If your assessment goes up a greater percentage than others' assessments, then your taxes will go up. And that might happen. But it could also go down, as it did with some in 2000. The reval served to shift the tax burden. The question is, which way will the next reval shift it? The question is not, how much more revenue will it lead the town to collect? | ||||||||||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11369 Registered: 5-2001 |
Greenone, all houses in MW have appreciated since 2000. The issue is that some neighborhoods have seen a higher appreciation rate than others. | ||||||||||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 2699 Registered: 9-2003  |
Dumb question here: If I live on Warren near Parker, am on the West side? | ||||||||||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 1043 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hey girl, "West side" means west of the train tracks. You be on the east side with me. | ||||||||||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4839 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here's how it should work. Imagine a town that consists of just two houses, each valued at $100,000 (I know, not in Maplewood, but just to keep the arithmetic in round numbers). The tax revenue is $1000 and remains flat. Each house, being equally valued, pays 50% of that, or $500. One year later, House A has appreciated and is now worth $175,000. House B has also appreciated, but only up to $125,000. The tax burden on House A is going to be $175,000/$300,000 * $1000 = $583. House B will pay $417. Revals are necessary because that extra $166 on the tax bill affects the potential sale price of both houses. The buyer of House B, faced with a lower monthly tax rate, can afford a little more P&I and so can submit a slightly higher bid. And vice-versa for House A. The spread will narrow, and those new figures will also have an effect. And so on. | ||||||||||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 2700 Registered: 9-2003 |
Thanks, steel. I can't keep this stuff straight. All I know is we bought 3 years ago at top dollar, pay top dollar taxes and would freak if they went up more. Current price not that diff from what we paid! | ||||||||||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7472 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks, all. When we remodled, we (obviously) increased the value of our house. We saw our tax increase as soon as the rough inspections were completed. Some of our neighbors have renovated, some haven't. Would the renovators expect to get dinged again? Or would it be fair to think that since we've already seen an increase, we should be OK (proportionally). Cyn - last reval (and hopefully in another), our neighborhood was pretty flat. I don't think that taxes changed much because we are in the middle. It's ironic that in the last reval, Hilton taxes went down because those owners had a higher proportion than their share. And now those houses have appreciated faster than the west side. | ||||||||||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 1044 Registered: 2-2002 |
A lot of people in town were stung big-time with how much their taxes went up after the last reval. They haven't gotten over it and I can't blame them. I still haven't gotten over that I was apparently paying a much higher percentage of my home than a whole lot of those mentioned above for years and years. I had been blissful in my overcharged ignorance before Vic took to the stage with his bullhorn. Then I wanted my money back. I still want my money back. I want those guys who were getting a "free ride" on my back with their lower percentage to send me a check cuz I think they musta bought some groceries or Italian sports cars with my money. I also don't think that's going to happen, especially now that they are carrying loads of $20+K on their million dollar or near-million dollar homes. Now it seems that some of those same guys have the idea that my modest house has escalated monstrously ahead of theirs as a percentage of the starting point since the last reval and that so I must be getting a monstrous free ride on their backs. I can assure them that it does not feel such though it is doubtful they will care as they are otherwise distracted with their own bills. They are suddenly very attuned, (though considerably less attuned then when the situation was quite certainly reversed) of any seeming tremor of inequity in house value appreciation. They are quite suddenly horrified that there might be some sort-of percentage inequity. Perhaps we should first go over ALL of the math from ALL of those previous pre-reval years and set that balance sheet straight before a newly perceived, (though largely only rumored) disproportion is railed at. I also don't think that is going to happen. Ian is a good lawyer and probably has a bit more time on his hands now, -perhaps he would like to spearhead a class action suit on behalf of all we poor souls who paid so unjustly for so long so long ago. Is it too late? I don't think that that is going to happen either. The town has no money. I have no money. Nobody has any money though it seems when I drive around town, walk around town that a lot of people have some sort of money. Apparently they are running out. Taxes are high. Gas is nuts, health insurance is insane and the kids, well the kids certainly can't go without and why does cable cost so much? Thank God the weather is warm again so I don't have those heating bills, (for a while). And yet, -there are shiny cars. Wonderful landscaping. Sun-dried tomatoes. New rooms and fancy counter-top kitchen renovations. It's all very mysterious. I've gotta go. I just got a new Netflix. | ||||||||||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 180 Registered: 4-2006 |
Interesting comments: some facts, some fiction, some fantasy. I think some of you need to talk with an appraiser about their ideas about appraisal and the effects of higher appreciation to really understand the issue. Since we have a re-assessment in 2007 here I sympathize with you. "Courage" as old Dan Rather used to say. In the meantime, read my Essex County thread in Soapbox. We need to look at the Essex County portion of our taxes too. | ||||||||||
| letters Citizen Username: Letters016 Post Number: 533 Registered: 5-2005 |
Meanwhile, back at THIS THREAD... I am not totally upset about another reval. Since we waited so long for the last one, and goodness knows how well a lot of us have handled it, I really would not want to have that happen again. I said before, and I still believe it, that the values on the east side have gone up percentage wise more than the west side. And I think this is a good thing, too. Certainly the people who have sold their houses on the east side lately can't be complaining. And I have always thought that the more my new neighbors pay to live by me, the less likely I will be living with undesirable people, i.e. trailer trash and the like. However, the long overdo equalization of the values of the homes has finally started. Let us not stop now. I think that an ongoing reval will keep the ups & downs at a minimum. And we need to remind people that a reval does not in itself raise taxes. It may change your slice of the pie, up or down, but doesn't change the final number being collected. At least that is what I was told the last time, although somehow, the final number still went up. | ||||||||||
| Fruitcake Citizen Username: Fruitcake Post Number: 287 Registered: 9-2003 |
FvF, I suspect that you folks in Millburn are more worked up about county taxes than we are in Maplewood because your valuations are higher than ours. Thanks for helping foot the bill for us, we need all the help we can get. | ||||||||||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 183 Registered: 4-2006 |
Fruitcake - Sebnois says in my Essex thread that 19% of your tax bill is the County, not a small chunk of change and apparently not far from your municipal portion. In MSH we do have more properties and commercial ratables, with taxes therefore distributed over more properties than in Maplewood. What is the average dollar amount of your County portion of the tax bill? I will say that some properties in Short Hills are at a high property tax figure 50+k, yet you will find Short Hills properties in the 12-16k tax range, but I see quite a # of yours, above the village, comfortably in the 20k range. I am wondering whether MSH and Maplewood have ever explored any means of service or other sharing to reduce costs? | ||||||||||
| Fruitcake Citizen Username: Fruitcake Post Number: 288 Registered: 9-2003 |
I think the answer to your question is yes, they have explored it, but it has been very preliminary. I don't know any more than that. It's always a good idea for neighboring towns explore these things, in my opinion. | ||||||||||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 2709 Registered: 9-2003 |
Another from the department of dumb questions. What is the methodology for a reval? I ask because realtors are always sending stuff, etc., regarding "comparables" on your street or similar. Gives the feeling that establishing the market value of one's property and house is not all that tough to figure. If that were so, why such a major effort to re-establish the mv of both across all houses, and then do the math for the taxes? And how many houses are there in this happy little burg anyway? Steel, I hear you on the unpurchased Italian sports car, etc. I paid some over $8,000 in property taxes last year on a house we bought for $325K 3 years ago. No fancy bath or kitchen, no pool, no structural improvements. Foolishly, I'm assuming that if a more median Maplewood house sells for $650K, they'll pay $16K in taxes. The house cruising a million, nearly $20K. | ||||||||||
| letters Citizen Username: Letters016 Post Number: 535 Registered: 5-2005 |
Cynicalgirl, There are no really dumb questions when it comes to the reval, IMHO. There are approximately 6800 houses or housing units, I知 not sure which is the more accurate term, in Mpwd. The amount you could get for your house is not necessarily the assessed value. If you are being taxed $x on your house which has an assessment of $y and I buy it from you (because I知 filthy rich and stupid) for $2y, that does not mean that my taxes would automatically go to $2x. While I think that it would definitely have an effect on my taxes and eventually those of my new neighbors, which I知 sure they would be really happy with, the assessed value of my new home would still be far less than what I paid for it. It would, however, probably be higher than your current assessed value. I知 not an accountant and don稚 play one on TV, so I知 not sure if this helps you or not. | ||||||||||
| Rick B Citizen Username: Ruck1977 Post Number: 1086 Registered: 8-2003  |
I might be wrong, but I am sure if I am, someone will graciously correct me. A reval would not result in the taxes that the town as a whole collects, that number stays the same. However, each home pays a portion of that. When you do the reval, homes are assessed in value to determine how much of the portion each home is responsible for. So, while taxes are not necessarily going up, YOUR taxes could go, and YOUR taxes could go down. The last reval resulted in an assessed value for your home, and everyone else's home. You house might have been responsible for paying .084% of the total tax money collected by the town. If the homes in your neighborhood have greatly apprecaited since the last reval, chances are good that YOUR rate might increase, meaning you owe more money. However, without knowing the total number, and the appreciation of the homes around you and all over town, its hard to say if your rate will increase or decrease. So, its honest to say that taxes won't be going up, but it is misleading. What the town collects is not going up, but YOUR taxes could go up or down. | ||||||||||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11381 Registered: 5-2001 |
Cyn, in a reval the Town (or more usually a contractor engaged by the Town) inspects every structure and obtains up to date room, bath and square footage information and makes a judgement of construction quality, style and condition (although the latter was ignored during our last reval). Based on recent sales in a neighborhood an estimated market value is placed on each house using the collected data and that becomes the new assessment. |
