| Author | Message | ||
     Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 253 Registered: 4-2006 |
The constitutional convention on NJ property taxes will be another dog that doesn't hunt. No one is going to give up home rule either, when it comes to services or the schools. Maybe someone, somehow, figures out a way to give an enhanced tax deduction for property taxes. IMHO Essex County pols haven't exactly been " profiles in courage" in pursuing it, either. Did Codey do anything as Acting Governor to break out of the property tax box? Not really it seems. | ||
| mtierney Citizen Username: Mtierney Post Number: 933 Registered: 3-2001 |
Random observation: DeLuca et al pushed through the last reval over, to quote Kathleen, "people who suddenly had to pay more taxes screamed vitriocally, told falsehoods about their assessments and their ability to pay their new taxes, cried, hollared, and threatened, either out ignorance, fear, neurosis or political malice..." DeLuca gets back on the TC, and almost immediately talk resumes about a new reval. I seem to be among the few who watched Tuesday's TC meeting since I have seen no comment on the incredible bickering that is taking place at each and every township meeting. My Thesaurus defines my choice of word, bickering, as: discord, dispute, spat, tiff, squabble, wrangling, cross questions and crooked answers, polemics, strife.....on and on. An absolutely perfect picture of what goes on during a township meeting! How can we expect any sort of resolution or coming together on the needs of Maplewood's taxpayers when our elected officials could not agree that today is Thursday. There is no hope, folks.  } | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7538 Registered: 5-2001  |
Wow. Good theory, Kathleen. If you are telling me that my house with the brand new central air, 14x22 kitchen and new full bath is worth the exact same amount as my twin house around the corner (same neighborhood, same SQFT, layout, old kitchen, 1/2 bath instead of full, no C/A, etc.) then I am really pissed off that I spent the money on the renovations. With your logic, all the contractors in the area are going to go out of business rather quickly. It also blows my theory as to why people who have done nothing with their house in 20 years don't understand why they can't sell their houses for the 100k more than their neighbor across the street with brand new everything did. Location only takes you so far..... | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14052 Registered: 1-2003  |
Greenetree, you could wish for an inaccurate reval, where they underestimate the value of your house. You want a gap between fair market value and assessed value. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7540 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom - I know. I'm just trying to figure out Kathleen's theory about location-only based valuation. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5057 Registered: 9-2001  |
"...you should elect people to the TC who are willing to work politically and know how to work politically to reform the property tax system." So what is that suppose to mean Kathleen? Our Township Committee is made up of all democrats. Essex County and the state are controlled by the Democrats. Are you implying the Democrats don’t know how to work politically, or should we vote in some Republicans? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11395 Registered: 5-2001 |
Actually during the 2000 reval condition wasn't a major factor in determining assessments, at least on the so called west side. The rationale used was that in the white hot market ( a lot of demand and very little supply) in the spring and summer of that year condition didn't figure into the sale price. So, in actual fact, the conditions Greentree mentions actually happened. | ||
| TomR Citizen Username: Tomr Post Number: 1082 Registered: 6-2001 |
Dogbert, Thanks for the link. It appears that it will answer several questions I have regarding property taxes. TomR | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7541 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bob - had my house been assessed in 2000 at a similar value to a comparable renovation in my neighborhood, I would have fought it tooth and nail. It makes no sense. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1849 Registered: 10-2004 |
AJC: The TC has a few wolves dressed up in sheep's clothing. I wouldn't be spouting that the TC is all Democrats, it strikes me a merely a technicality. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5058 Registered: 9-2001 |
"...the TC has a few wolves dressed up in sheep's clothing." ...it strikes me as you either know something we don't, or you're just another screwball flapping your lips. If I were you I wouldn't be spouting a lot of unconfirmed statements or making stupid comments without backing it up with some real facts. However, the truth is, if you're referring to the two left wing liberals on the Township Committee as being real Democrats who are fully supported by the regular Democratic County Committee, than you're probably right..  | ||
| Fruitcake Citizen Username: Fruitcake Post Number: 290 Registered: 9-2003 |
I'm with AJC, I'd say the TC is three Democrats and two Communists. Maybe one of the Dems is an independent at heart, but that's about as far as this TC leans to the right. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7545 Registered: 5-2001 |
Perhaps if we elect all Communists, there will be no more individual ownership of property and we won't have to worry about the value of our houses and property taxes. | ||
| Fruitcake Citizen Username: Fruitcake Post Number: 291 Registered: 9-2003 |
And we can have a big parade and party on May Day. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1852 Registered: 10-2004 |
Huh, I could be wrong but I thought for sure someone in the last election switched from the Republican party to the Democratic party because he knew he couldn't get elected in this town any other way. Is this wrong information? | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2589 Registered: 5-2001 |
Correct. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11402 Registered: 5-2001 |
Back fifteen or twenty years ago the Mayor was a guy named Bob Grasmere, who, incidentally, passed away recently. Many people supported him, as many Democrats support Bloomberg in NYC. One of the TC members voted in a GOP primary in support of Grasmere and thus showed up as a Republican. In NJ if you vote in a primary, you are automatically registered as a member of the party. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2681 Registered: 6-2002 |
One of the TC members voted in a GOP primary in support of Grasmere and thus showed up as a Republican." Yes Bob, but then he didn't change his registration for 30 Years. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2432 Registered: 5-2001 |
As always, good point anon. I know Fred once told me the reason but for the life of me I can't remember what he said. I would have thought that voting in the national primaries in the 1980s would have been important enough for a mostly aligned Democrat go back to one's true political party choice after the Grasmere need was gone. But here's my question to BobK - why so coy in not naming names? I'm pretty sure you have associated DeLuca and Ryan by name when discussing the reval. Why not say Fred Profeta "voted in a GOP primary in support of Grasmere and thus showed up as a Republican." Not that I think it matters what the political label is for this discussion unless we're talking Marxism right?  | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11404 Registered: 5-2001 |
Wendy, first off I don't consider Vic or Jerry communists, just at the far left of the Democratic Party, although Jerry supported a Republican for County Executive one year. That wasn't my post. The post that brought Fred's support of Bob Grasmere didn't name names. I rarely post anyones name here, unless it is posted first. And then there was the candidate who ran for the TC with Vic's support who wasn't even registered as a Democrat. At least Fred changed his registration before running.  | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 269 Registered: 4-2006 |
During Grasmere's tenure Maplewood was in the national spotlight for closing several neighborhood roads coming in from Newark. A lot of racial accusations apparently flew, but Grasmere stuck to his guns as it was in the interests of the residents. Heard he was quite a gentleman as well. Today we have too many "yahoo"-type politicians, who live off of the public dole. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11405 Registered: 5-2001 |
Actually Fact you have your time line wrong. The road gates went up after Bob Grasmere was no longer Mayor. I think Grasmere's strongest achievement was getting the route for I78 moved to the south. It was originally planned to run through Maplewood roughly where Boyden Avenue is. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 281 Registered: 4-2006 |
Bob K- I defer to your knowledge on Grasmere, wasn't in the area at the time, but was interested in the ability to close municipal roads. He may have done better on the second, East Orange was killed by being divided by the you-know-what. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5059 Registered: 9-2001 |
...anyone who supported Bob Grasmere during his long tenure as Mayor of Maplewood was not interested in his party politics, only the man. That being said the man in turn wasn't interested in a political career beyond serving his community... FWIW, we are lucky to have a Mayor serving us now who IMHO, very much parallels the service and dedication to our community as his predecessor Mayor Grasmere… | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2435 Registered: 5-2001 |
Art, are you implying others on the TC are interested in a political career beyond serving their community. If so, to whom are you referring? | ||
| eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 1444 Registered: 5-2001 |
I really can't believe the TC is considering another reval so soon. It's political suicide. | ||
| pseudonymous Citizen Username: Berry_festival Post Number: 244 Registered: 9-2003 |
Is it not true that it was under the mayorship of Grasmere that 20 years passed without a reval? and taxes on the West side were proportionately lower than taxes on the East side? Any thoughts? | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5060 Registered: 9-2001 |
Wendy, what makes you think I'm implying anything? What I said was, Bob Grasmere wasn't interested in a political career beyond serving his community... Your question now makes me think you and Kathleen are up to something. Why don’t you two tell us who on the TC is interested in a political career? FWIW, Kathleen said, "...you should elect people to the TC who are willing to work politically and know how to work politically to reform the property tax system." And then went on to say, “Those are people who can think beyond Maplewood and who aren't at a loss to work with others at higher levels beyond Maplewood.” Now wouldn’t you say that sounds a lot like Vic and David. How am I doing Wendy? Listen, being these two supported and probably planned a covert attack on the re-election of their fellow democrat incumbents, and circumvented the Democratic County Committee nominating process, it certainly tells me they’re not satisfied to just serve on the TC. Really, what else can it be but to move on to bigger and better things? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11409 Registered: 5-2001 |
The last reval before 2000 was in 1982. By the early 1990s when another would have been due the Township Committee was becoming a Democratic stronghold. There is plenty of blame to pass around. | ||
| Sarah Macyshyn Citizen Username: Sarahzm Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think a reval every ten years would be great for the town - different areas appreciate at different rates. So within a short time even a "fair" reval becomes unbalanced. In the last Maplewood reval I know of people who bought a house thinking their taxes would be around $8500. Less than a year later their tax bill increased to $14,000. Their taxes increased by more than their mortgage interest payment. A reval every 10 years would eliminate that kind of sudden catastrophic increase. I personally must be the most brilliant real estate investor in the history of Maplewood, because I bought a house on Ridgewood Road in March before the reval and paid $157,000 for my 1200 square foot victorian shack with two bedrooms and one bathroom. When I got my new assessment the following November 9 months later,( I had made no improvements to the house) according to the tax assessor, my house was worth a whopping $320,000....after fighting it all the way to court - I got the assessment reduced to $240,000, which if it had been accurate, represented a 50% increase in value in 6 months. | ||
| dytunck Supporter Username: Dytunck Post Number: 284 Registered: 3-2001 |
Dear Sarah, I'll gladly give you 50% more for your house right now. Let see, $240,000 half over once again is $360,000. Deal? | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7390 Registered: 5-2001 |
Location was the major factor during the last reval. I live on a corner. One side of the house was in one assessment district and the other side of the house was in another assessment district. Same House! The house was originally assessed on revaluation as being in one assessment district. When it was later assessed as being in the other assessment district, the value of the house decreased. | ||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 501 Registered: 3-2005 |
Alleygater, Your information is correct. It was lied about the time and still is. Greenetree, That "good theory" is called "market capitalism" and a market is a market is a market. What's a baseball card or Groucho Marx's autograph or a Hummel figurine worth? What somebody will pay for it -- and what somebody will pay for your house depends on where it is located. I don't know where you live, so I don't know if you overspent on renovations with respect to resale. But I do know that, whatever the condition of your house, if I put it on wheels and move it to Millburn, its market value will go up dramatically. And if I move it to Irvington, it will plummet. And I'll get similar results if I just move it around Maplewood. It is renovations that only take you so far in a real estate market. And in terms of your taxes, they are practically meaningless. Yes, your house with AC will sell for $20,000 more than your neighbor's, so you will be assessed for tax purposes at $20,000 more. And what's that on your annual tax bill? A drop in the bucket of the $12,000 you're paying. If you like logic, and don't like how your taxes get determined, the logical thing to do is vote for people who work for progressive, rational tax reform in New Jersey. eliz, Or try political attempted murder. Sarah MacyShyn's post is a good example of why real estate agents are players, not neutral observers, when it comes to market value and tax assessments. No realtor would have let a client sell a 1200 square foot house located on Ridgewood Rd. for $240,000 in 2001. But more than one realtor and real estate agent in town was able to successfuly negotiate a below-market assessment for their personal properties from the assessor (I know this because too many of them boasted about it). Houses in the Ridgewood Road neighborhood have increased multiples of 50 percent in the past 5 years, utterly disproving the notion that prices can't accelerate that rapidly. Any future reval should be done by politically and financially independent professionals, with visible barriers in place against political manipulation of the results by citizens' groups or the politicians that represent their faction. And every person in town should be demanding that of the TC. | ||
| Sarah Macyshyn Citizen Username: Sarahzm Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dear Dytunck, Your suggestion is either ignorant or narrowminded. The CURRENT value of a home has NOTHING TO DO with the fairness of the value assessed by the town 8 years ago. In fact current property values confirm the unfairness of the 1998 reval, for instance: 107 Franklin - sold in March 2006 at $315,000 with a total assessment of $127.600 ..... assessment is 40.5% of sale price - the house sold at approx 2.5 times assessment. Taxes were $4,606 51 Euclid, Sold in February at 2006 at $827,000 with a total assessment of $561,400,000 .. assessment is 68% of sale price. House sold at approx 1.47 times assessment. Taxes were $20,266. Ideally, in a fair assessment - homes through out the town would sell at the same multiple to assessment - So, if the Franklin and Euclid homes were fairly assessed - and selling at perhaps 2 times assessment - Franklin's assessment would be $153,000 and taxes would be 5,500 and Euclid's assessment would be $414,000 and taxes would be $14,945. Or, if that math is too hard for you - Euclid sold at 2.62 times the price of Franklin - in a fair assessment Euclid's taxes would be 2.62 times those of Franklin - or $12,068 NOT over $20,000 | ||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 502 Registered: 3-2005 |
Sarah, You're not using CVI's numbers, which overwhelmingly accurately reflected market values. And you'd have to be professionally totally clueless to assert that real estate values in walk-to-train areas of Maplewood did not accelerate at record pace from 1998 to 2000. I hope you weren't encouraging people to sell for less than what they could get! You're not going to do your reputation as a realtor much good pushing that line. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7579 Registered: 5-2001 |
Kathleen - is there something going on here that I don't know about? There have been many good explanations of how the assessments were/should be done, relationship of market value and share of tax, etc. I know I've learned something. But, I can't quite match your explanations with the issue. You seem like a dog with a bone about the west side of town and even downright hostile towards some posters. I apologize if I'm wrong, but it just seems, well.... personal. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4696 Registered: 5-2001  |
kathleen said, "You're not using CVI's numbers"? She listed the assessments of two properties. Those would be CVI's numbers. That 51 Euclid prop was in dire need of everything. It sat and sat on the market. THe houses accelerating like crazy are "done", good locale or not. You're assumption of Sarah M as a realtor was low and uncalled for. What's your problem? Oh, wait, I already know the answer. | ||
| Sarah Macyshyn Citizen Username: Sarahzm Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2003 |
Kathleen, I am using numbers from the Garden State Multiple Listing Service - which are identical to the tax records and whose accuracy is regulated by the New Jersey Real Estate Commission. What could possibly reflect market values more accurately than the most recent sale prices actually realized? Both 51 Euclid and Franklin were on the market for a long time. 51 Euclid was not in dire need of everything –It was a good house. It had a nice kitchen that was less than 20 years old, had been well maintained – and just had too much wallpaper for most people's taste and didnt have the bells and whistles like granite counter tops etc. Yes, real estate values in walk to train areas of Maplewood accelerated at a record pace in the last several years, but so did all of Maplewood. In fact, since 1998, Hilton has seen the highest percentage increase in value of any Maplewood neighborhood ( which is a good thing for everyone). I think this may be due partially to its "favorable tax treatment" but also to the addition of a Hilton Jitney - and the increased desirability of the Seth Boyden Magnet School. And by the way, in the year after the reval, the prices in the neighborhood above Ridgewood Road were stagnant - while prices in Hilton skyrocketed. Why would I ever encourage people to sell for less than what they could get - and how would I do that? Talk to any of my clients - or to me - Like most realtors - I work very hard to insure that my sellers receive the highest price possible - we spend hours in preparation - helping owners to stage homes to their best advantage and preparing marketing materials, then we spend a lot of our firm's and our own money to expose our listings to the widest possible audience. Of course, if I represent a buyer, it is my legal and fiduciary responsibility to negotiate the best price possible. If I can negotiate a low price then I am doing my job well. And what did you mean by "No realtor would have let a client sell a 1200 square foot house located on Ridgewood Rd. for $240,000 in 2001." What does 2001 have to do with anything? Are you implying that when I bought my home on Ridgewood Rd in 1998, I somehow finagled an unfair price? The house had been Multiple listed with for 9 months with three separate agents, George Krauss at Burgdorff, Cherre Schwartz and Diane White ( when I bought it) at Weichert and looked so bad that no one wanted it. The woman I bought it from has become a good friend.  Finally, I would like very much to know who those realtors were who successfuly negotiated below-market assessment for their personal properties from the assessor and boasted about it to you - and how they did it. I too heard stories about people who through their personal relationships with the tax assessor had access to get their assessments reduced while the rest of us couldnt get our phone calls returned - but I never heard that any of them were realtors, and I never heard anyone boast about it - and never knew if those stories were true. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11428 Registered: 5-2001 |
Kathleen, if CVI did such a wonderful job why was the CD already near 10 the nest year? | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5365 Registered: 10-1999  |
I don't see any evidence to support that statement. To the contrary, since the reval rebalanced the tax load, and since other improvements have come to the Hilton side of town, there is nothing strange about that area increasing in value, at a faster rate, than another area of town. You've given a reason to consider whether it's time for a reval; you have not given a reason to assume the last one was unfair. |
