| Author |
Message |
    
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1361
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 9, 2003 - 9:36 am: |     |
These veterans, all of whom have seen combat in prior wars, would be the first to speak out against war. They would never want this generation of young people to experience the conditions they experienced in battle unless it was absolutely necessary.
The key for them is that our nation has already committed troops to the region. Many of these former soldiers served in Viet Nam and know what it is like to try and fight a war that so many people back home cannot support. They have seen the effect that anti-war sentiment at time of war can have on the ability of a nation to fully support its own troops. They will tell you that too many people died in Viet Nam because the nation they represented was not fully committed to the cause which sent them there in the first place -- most were draftees remember.
They don't want to see this happen again. Therefore, our veterans are fully committed to supporting the troops which have been sent overseas and many are strongly opposed to anti-war demonstrations at this time. |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 398
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 9, 2003 - 10:30 am: | |
I know the history and I've spent a fair amount of time talking to some Vietnam vets about it--most interestingly around the time of the last Gulf War.
I think many have learned a lot from the Vietnam experience and the way returning vets were treated. It's not the same time or the same war or the same army (largely draftees).
Opposing the war does not equal failing to respect and support our troops--now and in the event of war. |
mwsilva
Real Name
Username: Mwsilva
Post Number: 257
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 9, 2003 - 11:52 am: | |
Mr. DeLuca, Mr. Ryan:
I have not seen a response to my request. I am serious. My group wants time on the next agenda to present our views that the business of the TC is not to get involved into Federal matters.
We have as much right to speak to you about this as the group that wants to convince you to send a message to Washington.
Do you intend to hear their message and not ours?
You may post your response here and then we will call you using our given names.
Thank you. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 835
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 9, 2003 - 3:59 pm: | |
Mwsilva,
With all due respect, Mr. DeLuca, and Mr. Ryan, don't owe you a response. I don't even know if they believe, as you state, that you're serious. You have not responded since your only post on this thread, or since the post by Mck, on Feb. 5th, “uh, guys, I'm pretty sure MWSilva was making a joke to make his point...weren't you, MW?”
You or your group, who ever they are need not be on the TC agenda. As you know, they can attend the meeting and speak anytime they wish at the either of the two public comment portions of the meeting. I’m also sure that Vic will permit public comment on this matter, as he did at the last TC meeting.
From what I have seen and heard thus far, this is a serious issue. A petition and the selection of one person to speak will make the point. Many of us would like to be represented, so please lets not continue to grandstand and get down to business…
I suggested to you last Wednesday to arrange a prior meeting that would allow others to join the discussion. I’m willing to host one at the train station if you want, or any place your group of 21 people and others interested can meet.
Please advise us ASAP. Thank you. |
Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 1145
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 9, 2003 - 5:43 pm: | |
 WHEN IS THE SPRING PICKUP SCHEDULED TO HAPPEN????? You know, the one where you can put out broken furniture, old appliances, etc., etc. 
Ed May |
mwsilva
Real Name
Username: Mwsilva
Post Number: 259
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 8:58 am: | |
Mr. ajc,
So now you are the cop for Mr. DeLuca, Mr. Ryan and the TC Agenda?
I have a serious position. The TC is out of order to even allow this stuff on the agenda and has opened pandora's box.
I hope that you will understand that I do not respond to every question asked of me, and I'm not interested in your suggestion.
I will not be getting back to you ASAP!! |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 838
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 11:49 am: | |
“I have not seen a response to my request. I am serious. My group wants time on the next agenda…”
I wasn’t trying to speak for Deluca or Ryan. They do very well on their own…. Mwsilva, I really thought you wanted a response and was looking for some wide support. I believed you were interested in represent us all.
“I have a serious position.” How about everyone else? I was hoping we were all in this together? I guess if you are only accepting selected help and suggestions, the rest of us outside your group can go it alone…
Good luck, I hope I'll see you at the next meeting. Just try not to complain about the others taking up to much of the committee’s time… |
mwsilva
Real Name
Username: Mwsilva
Post Number: 273
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 9:54 am: | |
Mr. Ryan, Mr. DeLuca,
If you would like to save a considerable amount of time at the next TC meeting, post here that you guys have reconsidered, and will NOT be hearing the protest the war group as it is outside the scope of the town business.
If you post that, then a lot of us will not be at the meeting demanding and taking equal time to tell you that Federal matters are not the business of the TC.
So, lets all save some time and drop this. |
Jerry Ryan
Citizen
Username: Gerardryan
Post Number: 1131
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 10:36 am: | |
This is speaking just for me, and not for the Township Committee.
I am not going to tell people that they cannot come before the Township Committee and speak on any issue that they want to speak about. That is what free speech and the ability to petition the government is all about. It's one of the things that makes us America.
If you want to come before the township committee and tell me that I should cut people off and not allow them to speak on an issue, then you should do that. I won't tell you that you can't say that, either.
Listening to citizens is not time wasted, and it is not getting in the way of the business of the town. You might argue that listening to citizens IS the business of the town. I would.
Jerry Ryan |
mwsilva
Real Name
Username: Mwsilva
Post Number: 275
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 10:42 am: | |
Ok, early in this thread I asked for time on the Agenda to present our group opinion that the TC should not be involved in Federal matters.
I have not seen a posting that is telling me that our group has been scheduled.
Why them and not us? |
mwsilva
Real Name
Username: Mwsilva
Post Number: 278
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 1:10 pm: | |
Hello?
It has been more than 2 hours. Mr. Ryan. I hope the time delay is because you have not been online and not that you are for listening to some of the citizens, but not all the citizens. |
mck
Citizen
Username: Mck
Post Number: 425
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 2:01 pm: | |
Jerry, it's not the citizens talking, it's the TC consideration of a war resolution which is to many of us inappropriate. There is no resolution that can fairly and accurately represent the opinions of MW citizenry on a national security matter. If you've been following the debates here on MOL you can see that the hawk/dove split is about 50-50. I would guess that's about right for the town although I don't know, there would have to be a referendum to really know. And there are nuanced opinions in each category, i.e. the war is OK, the sooner the better, or the war is OK if and only if the UN sign on, war is never ok,etc...
The proposed resolution, as I read it in the N-R, doesn't represent me and I'm sure it doesn't represent lots of other Maplewoodians. As a resolution written by me wouldn't represent a lot of Maplewoodians.
So - let the people talk. Forget the resolution. It's simply wrong. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1369
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 4:39 pm: | |
Jerry:
I agree with mck. I applaud the openness of the TC to welcome people speak out on any subject of interest regardless of how late the TC meetings may run as a result. However, I don't feel that it is within the mandate of the TC to pass a resolution on behalf of the township which takes a position on national policy. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 964
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 4:41 pm: | |
Dearest R.M.
In the interest of saving you and the rest of the boys even more time, I am pleased to present you with the entire text book being used for this resolution nonsense.
quote:Guide to Getting a City Council Resolution Against War with Iraq Passed in Your Community
The following is a simple guide to getting a City Council Resolution passed in your community. A City Council Resolution campaign is not a "one size fits all" type of effort but the following are ideas to get you started.
Gather a Coalition of Local Organizations to Support the Effort
Many communities have existing peace and justice coalitions. If a coalition does not exist in your community, a City Council Resolution campaign is a great opportunity to launch an effort to amass the power of different groups and constituencies against the war. Think outside the box! Gather a host committee with representatives from different constituencies including faith-based groups, students and youth organizations, peace and justice groups, sympathetic business groups, groups that work on poverty, immigrant groups, racial justice organizations etc. Call a first meeting to launch this idea.
Survey Your City/Town Council
If you are unsure about where your City Council stands on the war you may want to start by surveying the Council so you can assess who are your allies, swing members, and those that will pose a tough challenge. Call each office and ask the Council Members (or their staff) if they would generally support a Resolution Against the War. This effort can be divided amongst different organizations. Make sure there is a point person who is collecting the results of the survey to report back at the next meeting.
What makes the war on Iraq city council business?
Gather Public Signatures
If you already have a resolution draft in mind that you would like to have the Council pass you may want to spend some time gathering petition signatures from the Council Peoples constituents. See American Friends Service Committee Sample petition. This will help leverage Council Members' support and may help in getting similar language passed by the Council instead of a watered-down version. Ask the members of your coalition to each collect a stack of signatures.
Identify Council Member Allies
Identify your strongest ally(s) on your City Council and set up a meeting with him/her to discuss introducing a resolution against the war. Bring education packet to share with them including talking points against the war, copies of City Council resolutions from other communities, and signed petitions. Ask the Council Person(s) to take the lead in garnering the support of other Council Members. Ask the Council Person to approve the language in the draft resolution. This process may take a number of days and a fair amount of negotiating.
If the Council Person agrees to take the lead, set up a follow up meeting with the Council Person's aid. To secure the support of other council members and to move the process along swiftly it is often easier to work with aids.
If the Council Person is not willing to lead the effort to get a resolution passed, first assess the reasons why. Is it that the resolution you presented would prove impossible to get secure support? Is the Council Person afraid to take the lead on this issue? Depending on the reason you may want to try some of the following paths:
Try a different member of the council.
Plan actions to target the member.
Negotiate on the draft resolution language (see sample resolutions and other City Council Resolutions).
Set Up A Public Education Event or Town Hall Meeting
At any point in this process you may want to consider setting up a public event in your city to garner wider support for your initiative, to bring more citizen power into the effort, and to build the peace movement in your city. If there are forums or teach-ins already planned you may want to just work with the organizers of those events to get on the speaking docket and invite the public to your next planning meeting. One way bring City Council Members into this effort early is to set it up as a "town hall meeting" where you have a panel of people presenting the various arguments for (and against) the resolution and a panel of Council Members and citizens listening and asking follow-up questions.
Outreach to the Media
The easiest way to make the resolution effort appealing to the media is to draw the direct impacts on your city. The National Priorities Project is available to help you crunch the numbers on how much the war will cost local taxpayers in your community. This, combined with the budgetary crisis facing many cities, makes a great hook for press.
A public education event or action is a great opportunity to inform journalists about the Cities for Peace campaign. If you are not holding a public education event, consider holding a press conference featuring City Council Members leading the effort and diverse members of your Coordinating body or coalition. If you don't have allied Council Members you may want to plan the media outreach around an action designed to target the Council Member and expose their unwillingness to support this effort. You may want to hold a Candle Light Vigil at their home or conduct a sit-in at their office.
Draft a press release (see sample release) and send it to your local and regional press.
If a Resolution passes successfully don't forget to do follow-up media work. Hold a press conference and claim a victory for peace.
What to do when a City Council Resolution will not pass (or even get introduced) in your city
It will prove almost impossible for many cities to pass a resolution. The following are some alternative options for expressing the support for peace in your city:
If you have any allied Council Members ask them to circulate a general letter against the war to other members and other officials in your City Government including the Board of Education, the Mayors office and other municipal departments. Any expression you can obtain against the war will help the national Cities for Peace effort to show national opposition to the war.
You can also try different bodies in your city such as University Resolutions against the war, Labor Union local resolutions, Parent and Teacher Associations, or other Civic bodies.
If you have a sympathetic Mayor in your city, ask him or her to issue a statement against the war.
Send Campaign Updates to Cities for Peace! We are tracking the various efforts to get resolutions passed across the country. If you are launching a campaign in your community please send us updates to Amy Quinn at a-quinn@mindspring.com or Karen Dolan at kdolan@igc.org
I do hope that you end this waste of time immediately as I will not appreciate you speaking for me on this National issue. Some of us are in favor of this war. Some are opposed. No resolution you draft can or should represent the voice of the community on this issue.
For those of you in opposition to this resolution being brought before our TC members - I urge you to send emails protesting this deliberate attempt at obstructing the business of this and other towns to the email addresses listed above.
Exercise your right to free speech and tell AMY QUINN TO LEAVE THE PROTESTS OUT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT |
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 85
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 5:04 pm: | |
Well done.  |
Jerry Ryan
Citizen
Username: Gerardryan
Post Number: 1132
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 5:42 pm: | |
Mwsilva: I have just gotten back on line. If you come to a Township Committee meeting and ask for time to speak and make a presentation on an issue, then I'd expect you'd get the time, same as the other people who came to a meeting did. You could have called me or any other member of the committee on the phone, or written a letter, and I expect you would have received the same courtesy. Anonymous postings on a message board are not the same; to be honest, I assumed you were using sarcasm to make your point and did not take it as a real request.
You, or anyone, should feel free to come to a meeting and talk to the Township Committee.
As for the resolution that we will supposedly be asked to consider, I'm going to reserve comment and judgement until I see it. I will be interested in hearing all opinions on this subject, from "you should pass it", to "you shouldn't pass it", to "you should not even consider it". I will not say that a person cannot talk at a meeting, because I believe that to do that would be wrong.
I am not worried about disrupting town business, nor am I worried that this will "waste time". If I'm wrong about that, I'll be the first to admit it |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 965
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 6:07 pm: | |
More over the top rhetoric from the appeaseniks:
quote:
OUR MORAL IMPERATIVE: STOP THE U.S. WAR ON IRAQ!
Page last updated February 12, 2003
Bush's State of the Union address was a virtual declaration of war. While the U.N. weapons inspectors are asking for several months more to conduct additional inspections, the U.S. is seizing upon some criticisms they have made of Iraq, particularly the refusal of scientists to be interviewed without Iraqi government witnesses and the nervousness Iraq has expressed of allowing U.S. U-2 spy planes to over fly Iraq at the same time that the U.S. with its U.K. allies are conducting a bombing war against the nation and people of Iraq.
On February 5, Colin Powell addressed the Security Council with supposed proof against Iraq that he argued should justify sentencing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people to certain slaughter. Included in his presentation was reference to a plagiarized British supposed intelligence document which was actually copied from several magazine articles - typos and all - at least one such article from the early 90s! Two of the actual authors of the articles that were plagiarized have actually stated that they are opposed to the war and that their papers indeed do NOT make a case for the pending slaughter.
The U.S. is promising to launch a virtual holocaust against the city of Baghdad where millions of Iraqi civilians reside as the U.S. plans to launch 800 cruise missiles against Baghdad in the first two days of its planned onslaught. At the same time, the use of nuclear weapons against Iraq by the U.S. is being openly considered and discussed. The U.S. is calling this plan its "shock and awe" strategy - through which it intends to take out the entire civilian infrastructure include water, sewerage, electricity, food distribution - a plan clearly aimed at maximal civilian casualties!
While nobody can predict just how many people will be killed in the U.S. attack on Iraq, if we are unable to stop it, the U.N. has issued a report that estimates 500,000 casualties on the Iraqi side.
We are edging closer and closer to the abyss as we might be within days of the U.S. initiating an unprecedented assault, perhaps of genocidal proportions, against the nation and people of Iraq.
We need to believe that we can indeed halt the war - but we also need to realize that we do not have much time to do it before the planned invasion.
It is the utmost moral imperative for people all over the world, and most importantly, the people of the United States, to do EVERYTHING humanly possible to try to stop this dreadful escalation to full scale warfare upon the nation and people of Iraq.
What can we do? The following are some suggestions:
Mobilize and attend the February 15 March Through NYC! Click here for national information. EMERGENCY! No Permit Yet! Your Immediate Action Needed!
Begin to attend regularly one of the regularly scheduled actions to protest the war.
If there is not a regularly scheduled n event near you, organize one!
Organize against the "No Child Left Behind Act" - the forcing of school districts to share the personal contact data of our children with military recruiters and all of the other military recruitment activities going on in our schools.
Support the activities being organized throughout the state against the war and organize additional activities - add those to the calendar.
Become a local organizer against the war. Add you and / or your organization to the directory so that folks in your neighborhood who want to join forces with us have a place to turn.
Visit the resource guide to find out who in your neighborhood you can converge with in the struggle against the war.
Work with the governing body in your town to pass a resolution opposing the war.
There are many other ideas that you can no doubt formulate - there are many hands that are needed to work together to resist the pending disaster. We look forward to hearing from you. Contact us today!
While every measure must be taken to prevent the U.S. from launching its planned full scale invasion of Iraq later this month or early next, we must also prepare ourselves for the event that we are unable to stop the war escalation. Groups throughout the state are formulating emergency response plans. Click here to see those emergency plans that are already set. Click to add your plan.
If you have web site ideas or corrections for this web site, contact Bob Witanek.
Upcoming in NJ
Hudson County Activist to Travel to Iraq - Her presence the "strongest statement a U.S. citizen can make" against the U.S. war.
Human Shields Statement
Special Registration Protest, 2/22 Meet in Newark, Protest in Chatham,
Mtg, 2/12, Franklinville,
Vigil, 2/16, Ocean City
Poetry, 2/12, Morristown,
Iraq Slides / Education, 2/13, Rocky Hill
Rally, 2/23, Trenton HS,
Details about above listed scheduled events and more
Regularly scheduled weekly pickets / rallies / vigils
February 15, NYC
NJ Mobilizing for Feb 15
Emergency plans
Bergen County Coalition Calls for Teaching Moratorium Upon U.S. War Escalation
Municipal Resolutions
No Child Left Behind / Countering Military Recruitment
List Serves / Cultural Resources
Legal /National / Regional
NJ Labor Against the War
HS Organizing
Since February 2, 2003:
http://www.nowarnj.org/
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 967
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 6:27 pm: | |
Even more on what's coming. Note the bold below:
quote:
WHAT MAKES THE WAR ON IRAQ CITY COUNCIL BUSINESS?
1) Establish the local nexus
a. alert council of the economic impact
b. alert council to threat to civil liberties
c. alert council to the increased danger of international travel by residents of your town
d. alert council to the number of part-time military personnel in your city or state which are called up, leaving a vacuum in local "first responders" (i.e. policy, fire, public health workers, EMT's, etc) just at the moment that our CIA tells us we will most need them at home
2) Demonstrate widespread public sentiment
a. via recent poll figures
b. number of signed petitions
c. number of letters/calls to council members
3) Demonstrate that you have already written, called and otherwise contacted your representatives in the US Congress and the White House, and that it has been a futile exercise.
Since many City Councils will be compelled to reject any international resolution on the grounds that it is not in their purview, you need to demonstrate how, in this case, it is, for those three reasons mentioned above.
(Thanks to Joe Richey of Boulder, Colorado, for this contribution to the site.)
http://www.ips-dc.org/citiesforpeace/why.htm
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johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 549
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 10:09 am: | |
Mwsilva,
Get a clue. MOL is not the official means of communication with the Town Committee. If you want to schedule time on the agenda get on the phone and CALL the appropriate people.
What are they going to put on the agenda, "Proposal from Mwsilva." Demanding reponses from the Town Council to put you on the agenda while using a screen name is ridiculous. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1371
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 5:06 pm: | |
mwsilva:
Why don't you phone or write to someone on the TC and ask now for time to address the February 18th meeting? If it is too late to get your group's petition formally added to the agenda, I am sure that you will be given the opportunity to speak during one of the "open mike" portions of the TC meeting.
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mwsilva
Real Name
Username: Mwsilva
Post Number: 280
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 5:15 pm: | |
johnny,
Thank you for your great idea. Duh!
If you read my original post, I was clear that if we were given a spot on the agenda I would proved copies of our presentation prior to the meeting, and you can be sure my name and all our names would be on it.
But thanks for taking the time to tell me I don't have a clue. That is so MOLish of you.
On the agenda or not, we will be there. It is just so interesting the game played. We can not communicate to the great and all powerful TC via MOL. What is with that? I could call and say that my name was, say, Johnny and all would be better? Service to the people? |
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