| Author |
Message |
    
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 955
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 3, 2003 - 10:32 pm: |     |
Steven... how much rent do you charge for your space for rent? I have a few things I'd like advertised there if you're serious. |
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 169
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 3, 2003 - 10:41 pm: | |
I was thinking of more like a barter kind of thing....I would be happy to consider any copy, which would be subject to editorial approval.
Trading on my Good Name here y'see......
this space for rent |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 956
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 3, 2003 - 11:21 pm: | |
Do you like pancakes? I love to barter... we'll talk at the meeting tomorrow night! |
Paul Surovell
Citizen
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 3, 2003 - 11:55 pm: | |
Steven,
The petition was addressed to the Township Committee, asking it to express opposition to war without UN Security Council approval to the President and Congress. That's what people signed.
The resolution we proposed contained the text of the petition, but it was deleted by the TC.
The people who addressed the TC on behalf of the resolution, including Zurofsky, were not representating SMPA, they were speaking on their own behalf, as individuals. |
stefano
Real Name
Username: Stefano
Post Number: 279
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 12:00 am: | |
Oh yeah? Then why were they all wearing the same color t-shirt? |
Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 1235
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 1:08 am: | |
Actually, Art, I hope not to wait hours to get my 2 minutes at the open mike to oppose the TC's Foreign Policy Decision of last week and I am sure that neither do the others planning to speak similarly. I see Public Comment as item #10 before the Admin reports .......
Ed May |
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 171
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 6:48 am: | |
LOL Stefano
this space for rent |
mck
Citizen
Username: Mck
Post Number: 516
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 6:51 am: | |
Paul: You organized the presentation. You lined up the speakers and introduced them, including Mr. Zurofsky to speak on "international law." I heard him refer to his "friends at SMPA" and say that you invited him. He was absolutely their at your behest unless I totally misunderstood the goings on.
BTW, one of the speakers against the resolution, Hildebrand the younger, differing from his pacifist father argued in favor of war as sometimes a necessary evil. |
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 172
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 7:00 am: | |
mck,
Don't bother, he's not listening.
The only voices of dissent which he hears are the ones he agrees with.
Lacking the decency to put forth their beliefs in their own names, the SMPA have resorted to using our Town Council as their mouthpiece.
And now, realizing that putting those unpalatable, Socialist speakers out in front to deliver the true message (Bush is evil, America is a corrupt terrorist state), they have exposed themselves to an uncomfortable degree, so naturally Paul now seeks to distance himself from those speakers.
Classic.
this space for rent |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 957
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 10:26 am: | |
Ed,
This is the whole point, why should the entire community have to wait for a hours before the township committee gets down to the business of running our town?
Lets have some consideration for the hundreds of residents sitting at home watching and waiting for local issues to be addressed. We have enough reality shows on the tube without having to endure it on our local cable channel as well!
I’m afraid if the committee allows this dog and pony show to go on first; they will only compound their problems. A few minutes here, and a few there, before you know it we'll have a repeat of the last meeting.
Foreign Policy Decisions may be important issues for the federal government, but not so for Vic, Jerry, and David. Therefore, lets make sure we put the towns business before personal issues, and egotistical pleasures. 
As for you, Steven, Paul, Mr. Zurofsky... with all due respect, and IMHO, all the lip flapping rants should not come before,
13. DISCUSSION ITEMS
1. Parking Restrictions on Elmwood Avenue near Winchester Gardens.
2. Redevelopment Zones.
14. IG/FP CONSENT AGENDA
15. DISCUSSION BY TOWNSHIP COMMITTEE – Regarding introducing a resolution to formally proclaim March as "Sbenois Month."
I'll see you tonight, bring a pillow to sit on.  |
jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 2878
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 10:34 am: | |
Art,
Make agenda item #1, retraction of resolution, and all the timing problems go away, Ed goes home early and on with the business of the town.
I hope I can make it tonight!
Ed, if I’m hung up with the tax process, please use my name in support of your opinion. That will get you far!! 
George
|
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 175
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 10:49 am: | |
Art,
I wasn't actually planning on doing much lip flapping...
Was thinking of something more like one of those nude protest things I've been reading about. 
this space for rent |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 960
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 11:44 am: | |
Great! I'll bring my camera. |
Paul Surovell
Citizen
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 88
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 12:49 pm: | |
mck:
Your totally preposterous and erroneous comments about the Hildebrand families exposes you as someone who operates with very, very faulty information. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
Steven: I will comment on your misrepresentations about later when I can get back on the computer.
|
mck
Citizen
Username: Mck
Post Number: 518
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 1:48 pm: | |
Paul: Whoa. I was trying to point out that one speaker against the resolution addressed the substance,not the process. He said that war is sometimes a necessary evil. I thought I heard him ID himself as a Hildebrand, the son of the man who spoke for the resolution.
If I mistook identities or completely misheard, then I'm mistaken and I apologize. |
Paul Surovell
Citizen
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 89
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 2:15 pm: | |
mck:
This was your definitive post.
You've been doing nothing but making false presumptions about events and people you know nothing about since this discussion began.
This is just one of the more egregious examples.
Your apology will mean something only if you proceed to debate the issues on the merits and stop the shameful attempts to demonize and smear people whose views you don't like.
|
mck
Citizen
Username: Mck
Post Number: 519
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
Demonize? Smear? What are you talking about? If I misunderstood the name of an anti-resolution speaker, then I misheard, that's all, and I'm sorry. I called Mr. Hildebrand a "pacifist": was I smearing him? You must think that's a smear.
What other false presumptions have I made? I think I have a decent reputation on MOL of being straight forward, if a little harsh sometimes. I try to be factual. You'll have to be more specific about what I've said that's wrong so that I can correct it. |
Paul Surovell
Citizen
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 90
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 2:41 pm: | |
Steven:
What you can't face is that the resolution we proposed is representative of a strong majority of Americans (over 60% if you believe CNN-Time, over 95% if you believe Tom Friedman).
SMPA was the initiator of the resolution, which was deliberately designed to reflect the view of a majority of the community. The petition was explicitly addressed to the TC and it asked the TC to ask the President and Congress to refrain from a war not authorized by the UN Security Council.
All 611 Maplewood residents who signed the petition (during the equivalent of about 2-and-a-half days) were asking the TC express those views to the President and Congress.
As David Huemer said at the Feb 18 meeting, when the TC speaks on an issue, it has a strong impact, and if every town council did the same, the impact would be even greater.
And the fact that many cities and towns are passing resolutions is being noticed and having an effect, as part of the massive opposition to the Bush plan for war without UN approval.
Yesterday the NY Times endorsed the terms of the Maplewood TC resolution and today for the first time, the NY Times published an analysis piece that suggests that war is NOT inevitable.
Those who spoke on behalf of the resolution spoke for themselves. That's a fact. We asked a number of people to speak on particular topics where they had either expertise or a special perspective.
And if someone said something that others in the presentation disagreed with -- what's the probelm? SMPA doesn't have a "party line" as you seem to believe.
Where SMPA has unanimous agreement is that we believe that a war without UN Security Council approval would be unecessary, illegal and completely contrary to national and international security.
|
Paul Surovell
Citizen
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 2:44 pm: | |
mck: I take you at your word. I assume that means that from here on we debate the merits of the issues and don't attempt to smear or denigrate others for their alleged affiliations. |
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 178
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 3:03 pm: | |
Paul, since you have chosen to misrepresent my objections to the actions of the SMPA, I am linking to my earlier post from today.
In this post I reiterate what has been main objection all along, and which I stated at the TC mtg.
Please read it and respond, if you like, to my central complaint (contained in the first paragraph after the quote) rather than simply pulling the "Majority" card to stifle dissent.
It is quite clear to me at this point that you and I will never agree on certain issues; It should be equally clear to you that there are many Maplewoodians who object to your organization's appropriation of our town's name and to the divisiveness of the SMPA's actions, and who are going to excercise their freedom of speech in this regard.
this space for rent |
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 179
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 3:05 pm: | |
And speaking of majorities......
this space for rent |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1470
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 4:49 pm: | |
Mck:
The relationship of the two speakers you referred to is grandfather (in favor of the resoultion) and grandson (opposed).
Paul:
An error of one generation hardly impacts on the approrpiateness of the point Mck was trying to make with her post. |
mck
Citizen
Username: Mck
Post Number: 521
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 4:56 pm: | |
Joan: THANK YOU. |
Paul Surovell
Citizen
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 6:25 pm: | |
Steve:
To say that SMPA has "appropriated" the Town's name is a departure from reality. A resolution was passed that was initiated by SMPA, but which was supported through petition by 611 residents -- we don't have that many members.
I'm sorry that the fact that SMPA is willing to exercise its Constitutional rights is troublesome to you. I don't know what to suggest except try to re-examine what you are saying.
Joan: Please don't try to save mck from this, because it's almost as losing a cause as trying to defend Bush's pre-emptive war plans.
You also are operating under a totally erroneous presumption. The relationship you have described does not exist. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 4350
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 6:37 pm: | |
Paul,
Clarify, don't mystify. What's the relation? |
Paul Surovell
Citizen
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 7:12 pm: | |
Steve:
Regarding your previous post:
I have previously said I didn't agree with Zurofsky's presentation.
I did say previously that he was factually correct when he said that the Reagan administration condoned Saddam's use of chemical weapons against Iran and that Donald Rumsfeld was the point main at the time.
However, this had nothing to do with international law, which was what he was supposed to be discussing, so it was a diversion -- which also wrongly raised the issue of moral equivalence -- that detracted, rather than helped our presentation.
I suspect that his presentation had very little influence on the TC, if any.
|
mck
Citizen
Username: Mck
Post Number: 522
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 8:18 pm: | |
Paul: i don't need to be saved by joan. I'm glad she confirmed what i thought I heard that night -- that there were 2 Hildebrands who spoke on opposing sides of the issue. That's all.
You, on the other hand, have made wild accusations about me, with absolutely no evidence. Please clarify your accusations. |
Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 1240
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 1:07 am: | |
Well, I went to the TC meeting and got to speak my piece just as I had posted on MOL. (I got on at 10 PM.) So if you taped the meeting, fast forward almost two hours (the meeting started a few minutes late). Or wait for it to repeat on the local cable channel - does anyone know when the TC meeting is replayed? Glad I got to speak out against their "foreign policy decision" and that Vic, and Jerry, and David had to listen quietly. So did Ian and Fred, who voted against the resolution at the last meeting. What will happen, I do not know. But, hey, I was not the only one to speak. I think 6.00 people voiced opposition to the resolution. Probably as many echoed the same old liberal propaganda that led to the resolution in the first place. But I think I got the loudest applause? Shaun was there from the News-Record, and I think he is trying to provide balanced reporting, even though I did complain about the N-R headline that said "Pre-emptive Strike Condemmed". Not sure that he who wrote the article, wrote the headline. Let's see what happens next.
Ed May |
overtaxdalready
Real Name
Username: Overtaxdalready
Post Number: 121
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 7:48 am: | |
Congrats Ed for speaking out on this misguided resolution. |
jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 2886
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 8:01 am: | |
Ed,
First I taped it and watched about 1/2 of the tape late last night. If you want the tape when I'm done, you can have it.
The tape is scheduled to air next Tuesday 8 or 8:30 PM on Ch. 35.
Good job and sorry that I could not stay until the open comment period or you would have had 7.00 speakers.
I hope to see the balance of the tape tonight. How did it end? Did the TC ever comment on the resolution? |
Paul Surovell
Citizen
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 95
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 9:17 am: | |
Dave:
The two individuals are not related.
Ed:
It was good to meet you in person at the meeting. As occurred at the last TC meeting, the statements for and against the resolution were made in an atmosphere of mutual respect.
We have demonstrated again that the spirit of democracy is alive and well in Maplewood. |
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 182
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 10:26 am: | |
Paul, do you also have respect for those of us who are
enemies of democracy and have departed from reality?
And will re-education camps be made available to us poor souls?
this space for rent |
Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 1241
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 2:06 pm: | |
overtaxdalready - Thanks for your kind words
jgberkeley - So glad you taped it - can't wait to see the tape - I watched the second half of the meeting from home - unless I missed it, they did not yet recant.
Paul Surovell - Actually I enjoyed meeting you also - I think we should get together and talk more - about business - not politics
Steven Brent - I agree with you in opposing the anti war resolution - I disagree with your sometimes acerbic retoric - it reminds me of some of the extreme verbiage that the other side sometimes spews forth.
Ed May |
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 186
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 2:17 pm: | |
I have been trying to temper my outrage with civility.
Sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
this space for rent |
Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 1243
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 5:10 pm: | |
I think Art is giving lessons on that subject
Ed May |
johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 585
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 11:05 pm: | |
Paul,
Please stop saying the resolution represented a majority of the citizens of Maplewood. This statement is incorrect. There are over 20,000 people in Maplewood. You got 611 signatures. Please explain how in the world this could constitute a majority opinion? That's right, you can't.
From now on please state that your resolution represents the opinion of 611 people, not Maplewood or not South Orange but 611 people. And please stop saying that the signatures were obtained in only 2 days. That has absolutely no relevance.
Your resolution does not represent my opinion and many others' so please stop assuming so. |
overtaxdalready
Real Name
Username: Overtaxdalready
Post Number: 122
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 8:27 pm: | |
Excellent post Johnny. Thanks. Somehow they've deluded themselves into thinking that they're speaking for the majority. |
fmertz
Real Name
Username: Fmertz
Post Number: 73
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 7, 2003 - 11:40 am: | |
I say that in actual fact, the resolution represents only three people. Vic DeLuca, Jerry Ryan and David Heumer, all the only members of the TC that voted in favor of this waste of precious time.
Of course it may also represent Paul and some others, but it truly wasn't even the same document that was signed by the 611.
Which only leads me to inquire of Paul, what is your next petition? Perhaps it can address the concerns our TC has over another significant issue. Say perhaps the human rights records of those nations serving on the Human Rights Commission of the UN.
|
Steven Brent
Citizen
Username: Sbrent
Post Number: 191
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 7, 2003 - 12:44 pm: | |
fmertz:
Please don't complicate this issue by bringing common sense to it!
this space for rent |
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