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yabbadabbadoo
Citizen
Username: Yabbadabbadoo
Post Number: 222
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 12:23 am: |     |
Based on the initial posting, the issue is not an expense issue but rather a revenue issue. At 300-400 calls per year picked up by the FD @ $300 each, that's $90K - $120K/year more to the township. (and, btw, I dont think that the 30% collection rate is correct) That's as much as 1/2 a tax point (actually a little more). Seems to me to be a decent trade-off particularly in light of some of the other suggested cuts in services in the preliminary budget, or more important, additional cuts that would be necessary without that $120K in incremenal revenue. Just my opinion.
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Woodster
Citizen
Username: Woodster
Post Number: 44
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 1:03 am: | |
This is insane! How can they justify taking away a free service that costs the town very little just so the town can make a profit off of the citizens. Pretty soon everything in town will be a paid service. How long before they start charging for the Fired Department to respond to a fire? Or, for the Police to answer a call to your house? Or, the DPW to pick up your leaves or fill a pothole? Where does it stop?
I heard there are going to be major cuts in service and layoffs all over town and we are still looking at a 7% increase on the municipal level. Where is all of the money going? Are we in this situation because of all of that "one time revenue" the mayor spent last year?
Who is responsible for the budget? Is it the administator or the TC? How does one get a copy of the budget with some explanations? Just reading the number changes helps a little, but if you don't know why the numbers have changed you really can't evaluate the budget or the process.
We need to get everyone out to the next TC meeting and demand some answers on this budget. |
Taylor M
Citizen
Username: Anotherusername
Post Number: 422
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 3:50 am: | |
Woodster-
We already pay the fire dept to respond to a fire, and the police to respond to a call. Same with paying the DPW to pick up the leaves and fill pot holes. It's called high taxes!  |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5381
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 7:23 am: | |
Woodster:
Join the CBAC and you will receive notification of all the public budget meetings and have access to all the preliminary numbers plus updates throughout the process. You will also be given the opportunity to make suggestions regarding how the budget can be improved. Lately, the TC has even listened to these suggestions with an open mind and adopted some of the CBAC's proposals. |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5382
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 7:35 am: | |
Yabbadabbadoo:
Yes this is a revenue issue and a short-sighted person might even add that we are paying the fire fighters anyway so this becomes a non-cost action.
However, the fact of the matter is that this is also an expense issue because the town would have to provide additional paid staff to make the additional EMS runs which were previously made by the volunteer squad, if we were to have the round-the-clock coverage we need for both fire fighting and EMS protection.
The additional Fire Department staff would have to be housed at the fire house, be paid a competitive wage (including fringe benefits), trained frequently, equipped, etc. This could easily come out costing the town far more than any revenue which might be charged for ambulance services.
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Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5383
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 7:44 am: | |
Ken (the other one):
Could the problem of a volunteer squad being unable to collect payment for their ambulence services be solved by (1) making the First Aid Squad an official part of the Fire Department; and (2) paying First Aid Squad members a stipend to cover the cost of their volunteer service related expenses?
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ken (the other one)
Citizen
Username: Ken
Post Number: 246
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 10:01 am: | |
EMS in NJ is really screwed up. Let's see if I can explain this...
An ambulance can only be one of two things in NJ, either paid or volunteer. Each one has their own heirarchy of organization and regulations.
Paid means that the service has salaried employees, and then, obviously, volunteer has attendants that do not get paid. Because of that, each service has a different set of rules and regs. You have to be one or the other.
A paid service can charge for their services, while a volunteer service can not.
A paid service can not accept charitable donations, whereas a volunteer squad can.
The issue here is third party billing. Medicare allows paid EMS to collect monies for their services for certain procedures, such as transports, critical care transport, ALS services, etc. It's money for the taking. That's is why there are so many ambulance services around. The more work you do, the more money Medicare will dish out. This money does not come from the patient, but from Medicare. That is why it is called third party billing.
Volunteer squads, because of their status, can not receive these monies.
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ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 3712
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 10:55 am: | |
Great question Joan! Great answers Ken... however, I believe the answers are more of a legal issue and should be answered by attorneys and bean counters.
There must be another way to collect more revenue for the town and still maintain a viable volunteer service that benefits the community. We’ll all need to just work harder at it. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 4135
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 11:03 am: | |
One small fundraising suggestion for MFAS is to publicize corporate matching fund programs. My former employer did matching fund contributions for registered organizations & MFAS is registered with United Way. I made a contribution which the company matched.
I decided on MFAS at the time because I wanted to donate to my own community & MFAS was the only one in the area listed.
Why not do some publicity encouraging locals to participate? Corporate Matching programs are pretty painless. E.g., $10 a week out of your paycheck = $520 a year that you hardly notice & you company kicks in (usually 1:1). That's $1,040 per year for one contribution.
I also think that it is entirely reasonable to charge on a sliding scale basis for services. If it's that important to the TC, let them have a percentage of the fee collected on each call for rent on the building or something like that.
Of course, it doesn't address the TC revenue issue. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 4136
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 11:08 am: | |
I just read Ken's post, and it makes sense. So much for the sliding scale fee. Is there a loophole where a suggested contribution could be allowed through the charitable foundation? I know that if we needed the services, we would have no problem making a contribution. If there were truly no pressure to contribute, why not? A brochure explaining the program and how to donate could be mailed to each home after a visit.
Art- I appreciate your respect for lawyers, but there are many of us who work or have intimate involvment in industries with complex regulations who very well understand the regs and can explain them very well (like Ken). Sometimes even better than lawyers.  |
Woodster
Citizen
Username: Woodster
Post Number: 47
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 11:20 am: | |
Joan, how does one join the cbac?
Greentree, it's not about the MFS having enough funding, it's about the TC trying to raise more revenue from the taxpayers without calling it a tax.
This type of "pay as you use" service just doesn't work in government. My partner and I do not have children so why should we pay for any of the recreation programs? We have never had to call the Police or Fire Departments so why should we pay for them? If the mayor gets his way we will be paying for everything on a "pay as you use" basis, this is on top of the high taxes we already pay. A perfect example is the jitney service. If the mayor gets his way, we will be paying $400.00 to use the jitney service and that is a service that clearly benefits the whole town. |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5385
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 1:23 pm: | |
Woodster:
The CBAC is run by the Civic Association. George Berkeley, who posts frequently on MOL, has been the Committee Chair for the past two years and would be the best person to ask about joining. Even though most of the CBAC work is done between December and March of each year, there are some special study groups that operate throughout the year. Give George a call.
Regarding pay as you taxation, the jitney is a much better example of a service which can be run on a pay as you go basis that the police or fire department. There are people in town who would use the jitney, except that it doesn't serve their area. There are people who leave too early in the morning and/or get back to town too late in the afternoon to be able to use the jitney, even if it does serve their area. There are people who live so close to the train station that walking is a better alternative. There are also lots of people who don't commute by train at all. Why should they support the jitney? It makes a lot more sense to have the jitney available for those who would use it and charge a sufficient fee to make it self supporting.
The police and fire departments on the other hand are there for all of us every day. If a fire breaks out in one part of town, it could easily spead without the fire department being there to put out the flames. The fire department also does a lot of fire prevention work, so the fires don't start in the first place. The police department's physical presence in our community and enforcement of our laws make this a safer place for all of us and programs like neighborhood watch are excellent crime preventers. The very fact that you have never needed to call either the police or fire suggests to me that both are doing their job and that that job is benefiting you and your partner. |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5386
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 1:33 pm: | |
Ken:
Thanks so much for your explanation on funding of volunteer and paid first aid squads.
Let's assume for the moment that it would be impossible or impracticable to change the law governing funding of the two different forms of first aid squads and that the town is looking to maximize the amount of revenue which can be generated for EMS services. It would seem to me from your post that it would be in the best interest of the town to maintain both types of EMS services (paid and volunteer). The paid services can continue to do third party billing for their services and the volunteer squad can continue to obtain contributions through mechanisms such as the matching funds programs Greenetree describes.
The next question would be, what is the best way to maximize use of dedicated volunteers (no salary or fringe costs) who can attracxt donations and paid staff who can bill for their services and thereby attract revenue? Can this be done under a single entity (volunteer arm of paid service) or must the two remain separate? If separate, how separate do they have to be? Can they share space, purchasing, vehicles/equipment, administration (such as record keeping and dispatch/ training), etc? |
bolded
Citizen
Username: Bolded
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 2:15 pm: | |
I normally do not post, however, I would like to clear up one misconception regarding the jitney service. There is no transportation service anywhere in the country that is self-supporting. It is just not possible. If fares were raised to reflect the cost of operation and maintenance of transportation services, they would be raised to such an extent as to make the service unattractive and not used. The results would be more traffic on our roads, more pollution in our air, and in the case of Maplewood, more demands on our parking just to name a few. Transportation is generally considered a public good that everyone receives benefits. The jitney serves the Township in eliminating the need to construct a parking facility. Over 250 spaces are saved as a result of the jitney. A structured parking facility (which is what Maplewood would have to build) costs about $15,000 per space and that does not include operation and maintenance. The cost to amortize the loans necessary to construct a parking facility would greatly exceed the cost of operating the jitney. Thanks. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 3713
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 6:13 pm: | |
Bolded, thank you for sharing...
So, with your knowledge, understanding, long periods of cyber-silence, and apparent support of our local Jitney service, I wonder how you feel about starting up an all-day Jitney service?
You say, "there is no transportation service anywhere in the country that is self-supporting" however, do you think it is possible to cover “most” of any increased operational costs of an existing Jitney service, with an added pay as you go charge during certain additional hours of the week?
This of course would assume that the additional service provided was regular, reliable, and still affordable… (cost much less than cab fare.)
The result would be less traffic on our roads, less pollution in our air, and less demands on our parking needs both in the Village and on the Avenue. IMHO, eliminating the installation of some form of parking meter, or the need to construct a parking facility, should more than justify any small increased costs of operating an all-day Jitney in Maplewood.
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speedie99
Citizen
Username: Speedie99
Post Number: 26
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 6:15 am: | |
Dave - Would it be possible to move this over to Soapbox so we can get more people weighing in on this matter? Thanks! |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 3714
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 6:34 am: | |
Dave - Would it be possible to move this over to Soapbox so we can get more people weighing in on the "Ring of Fire"? Thanks!  |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 3715
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 7:42 am: | |
Dave - Would it be possible to move this over to Soapbox so we can get more people weighing in on moving the branch library, re-locating the police department, "The Perfect Solution", and yes, the rescue squad issue? Thanks!
It's amazing how many of these issues around town are so intertwined with each other, but lets try to get back to Steve's thread...
Thanks to Joan, I reviewed my correspondence from this years CBAC notes, and moving all EMS to the Fire Dept. (with no added staff, but added income) and using the First Aid bldg. for a youth program was discussed.
FWIW, besides all the long hours and hard work by the TC, there are a number of dedicated citizens in town who also give unselfishly of their time and talent to bring the most cost efficient government possible to our community. For those Molers with more than a passing interest in the town budget process, I recommend that they get involved with the CBAC.
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Bruce Mandel
Citizen
Username: Bruce_mandel
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 12:31 am: | |
This thread has been added to the "soapbox" section of MOL. Please continue to post there. |
Jeffrey Hark
Citizen
Username: Squad_volunteer
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 1:41 pm: | |
Neighbors-
I have been a volunteer with the Maplewood First Aid Squad for 18 years. I have been Captain, President and now Treasurer. The Squad has provided volunteer emergency medical services to the residents since 1973 as an independent agency designated as the “first responder” by the Township. The Township has the right to determine who provides EMS services to the town. The relationship between the Township and the Squad has been contentious at best during the years that I have been a member.
During the last 10 years, the number of volunteers has diminished as with every other volunteer Squad in our area. There are fewer people home during the day, contrary to what others think, and the training is much more rigorous. All volunteers must be EMT’s, which is a 126-hour course with a national test. The number of older volunteers has decreased as the requirements have grown. That is why Millburn and other Squads are now having staffing issues.
As the number of volunteers shrank, so did the number of hours that the Squad could answer calls, especially during the day. The Township and the Squad had many meetings to find solutions. At one point Police dispatchers were used alongside Squad members to answer calls. Mutual Aid was used from South Orange, Millburn and even West Orange, but these outside Squads added minutes to the response times and grew tired of responding.
Eventually the Township decided to use the Fire Department personnel to solve the daytime EMS staffing problems. This seemed like a reasonable idea since many communities cross train their firefighters for EMS.
The Squad has continued to raise money through annual fund drives although until recently money was not a problem, volunteers were. Yes, there were years when trying to join was difficult, but that was because the limited number of volunteers were so busy trying to take calls that other needs like recruitment were not handled very well.
As Bruce Mandel the current Captain has explained, the Township provides the Squad with insurance coverage of our two ambulances, fuel and some minor repairs. All of the other expenses like medical supplies; liability insurance, building and vehicle upkeep, uniforms and utilities are paid from the fund drive revenue. NO ONE who is a member of the Maplewood First Aid Squad receives any compensation. I have spent thousands of personal dollars on gasoline alone responding to calls, as have the other volunteers.
I have been an EMS volunteer here and elsewhere for over 30 years. It’s not the money, there is none; it’s not the glory, the Township gives us none nor any credit. It’s an opportunity to help your neighbors when they need it the most. Who is going to get out of a warm bed on a cold snowy night to carry you down two flights of stairs at 3am when you can’t breathe? The garden club? (No offense to the Garden Club, they are great at what they do.) Yes, the terrific Paramedics from MONOC who can start IV’s and give drugs, back up the Squad EMT’s. But more often than not, calls do not need the Medics. By the way, you get billed additionally from the hospital when the Medics are needed.
So should the Township stop relying on the First Aid Squad during the evening and night hours to make money?
The issues seem to be:
1- How do they arrive at their revenue estimate?
a. Last year the Squad handled approximately 500 calls, which at $300 a call is roughly $150,000.
b. Generally all of this potential revenue is not collectable because some patients do not have insurance and a percentage is taken by the company hired to collect the monies.
c. The Township has stated that they would only go after these service fees if the money were available from insurance. Is that changing?
2- How does the Fire Department plan to staff differently so that the ambulance can be in service even if there is a fire or mutual aid fire call?
a. With a paid Fire Department ambulance service, surrounding communities will not provide EMS mutual aid. An outside service like MONOC might be used, also charging.
3- Do the residents of Maplewood want to pay additionally every time they call 911 for an ambulance?
a. Yes, many people have ambulance service covered in their medical insurance.
A Township supported volunteer Squad is a cost effective method of providing EMS provided you have the volunteers. The idea of merging the Squad into the Fire Department as a reserve component raises issues of liability insurance and union work rules. These are perhaps worth exploring but volunteers can not charge for their services which defeats the Townships’ stated goal.
Since the Township never raised this issue with the Squad privately or publicly it is hard to understand their rationale other than pure cold dollars. The Squad has and is providing evening and overnight coverage six nights a week.
The question remains, should the Township of Maplewood use revenue from Emergency Medical Services provided to its residents as a revenue source, even if the questionable revenue figures were even close to being true? And are there not unmentioned additional costs in manpower, equipment and supplies?
I’ve given 18 years of service and treated thousands of my neighbors with no regrets. It’s up to the residents, those same neighbors to decide and tell the Township Committee.
These comments are personal observations and do not represent the official position of the Maplewood First Aid Squad.
Jeffrey Hark
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Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5431
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 2:17 pm: | |
Jeffrey:
Thank you so much for your clear and articulate summary of the problems the town is facing as a result of attempting to eliminate the MFAS in favor of having the fire department perform the EMS function and collect revenue for their service.
It still seems to me as though the costs involved in having the MFD replace the MFAS as primary responder during evening hours will far outweigh any revenue that might eventually be collected for this service.
The point about other EMS services not being willing to cover for Maplewood if we switch to an all paid EMS service is new to this discussion and well worth mentioning to TC members who may be unaware of this additional problem if the MFAS were to cease making emergency response calls on a regular basis. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 322
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 12:40 pm: | |
Jeffrey,
Are you saying that current practice is to bill people $300 when they call the First Aid Squad?
If this is the case, how would the proposal before the Township Committee affect people differently, from a cost perspective only.
(If this issue has already been discussed, I apologize for not reading through the thread).
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Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5499
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 4:21 pm: | |
Paul:
I believe the First Aid Squad, as a voluntary organization, is not permitted to bill for their services. However, they may accept donations. Even if the First Aid Squad were permitted to bill for their services (State Law would have to be changed from what I've read), the money received would go to the First Aid Squad and not to tax levy funds. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 3769
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 1:37 am: | |
...what a difference a day makes! |
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