| Author |
Message |
    
jet
Citizen
Username: Jet
Post Number: 926
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:37 am: |     |
BTW I would be the 1st to donate $100.00 to help maintain the fields . My name is Chris O'Donnell. I don't what it on my tax bill. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4128
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:41 am: | |
...now that's the spirit Chris, I'll match your $100.00 and raise you one...
Anyone else want to Pay to Play? |
mrmaplewood
Citizen
Username: Mrmaplewood
Post Number: 251
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 1:18 pm: | |
Point 1) This basic idea makes me believe that the town council is incapable of budgeting the money that it receives.
Point 2) This looks like a veiled threat to me that they are planning to cut down on spending for maintaining our parks if the trust fund is not approved.
Point 3) If a trust fund (kitty) gets around the property tax cap limitation, how many more trust funds can we expect to be put forward? We need to spend more wisely, not find ways to increase the burden on taxpaying citizens. |
grw
Citizen
Username: Grw
Post Number: 399
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 2:27 pm: | |
Dom
The recreation fields look fine ????????
What, from 20,000 feet in the air?? |
dom
Citizen
Username: Dom
Post Number: 20
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 2:38 pm: | |
the grass is cut, the hedges pruned, the garbage is picked up, the sand is raked and the white lines are drawn onto the field. What else needs to be done?
I agree with mrmaplewood's points..especially #3. |
Bill P
Citizen
Username: Mrincredible
Post Number: 721
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 3:23 pm: | |
I wonder if there is any way of knowing what sorts of trust funds are legal for municipalities to establish? The reason Maplewood is able to consider this is the state-wide referendum which passed in 1997.
I would imagine establishing a trust fund to raise additional monies for any specific line item would similarly need to be authorized by statewide legislation? |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3879
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 7:32 pm: | |
Mrmaplewood,
"Point 1) This basic idea makes me believe that the town council is incapable of budgeting the money that it receives. "
What the town council is incapable of is raising taxes upfront.
Why establish an "open spaces" trust fund with apparently no one minding the store (yet?) It's misleading to establish an open spaces trust fund in a town with no open space(!)
At least the town budget has checks and balances.
The CBAC looks over our annual budget line item by line item with a fine-toothed comb.
If this "open spaces" referendum passes who will oversee the distribution of funds?
Ms. Levanthal said,
" Most likely uses in Maplewood would be for field maintenance and rehabilitation. "
Great. I'm all for field maintenance, but don't ask the voters to raise their taxes by referendum when it's the responsibility of our elected officials to bite the bullet, raise our taxes for necessary expenses and deal with it like big boys and girls.
We elected these 5 men and women to make the hard decisions and govern.
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crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 263
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 9:59 pm: | |
art- you lost me.
alg2 - you are bringing up some very good points. The biggest being that the term "open spaces" is misleading.
To me, open spaces is not the same as Recreation (park/field up-keep). Who's to say that the money doesn't get used just to pay rec salaries - something that should already be in our budget.
Kathy - are you using the term Open Spaces to get people to vote for ballfield maintenance? That's not so good.
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crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 264
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 10:17 pm: | |
One last thought- there are just a few people reading about this here on MOL, so,
Don't all voters deserve more information and specifics about this referendum before they actually try to vote yes or no on Nov 8? I'm worried that people will just vote yes when they see the term "Open Space". |
mrmaplewood
Citizen
Username: Mrmaplewood
Post Number: 253
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 11:30 am: | |
Algebra
"What the town council is incapable of is raising taxes upfront."
"it's the responsibility of our elected officials to bite the bullet, raise our taxes for necessary expenses and deal with it like big boys and girls."
I'm confused.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7496
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:02 pm: | |
I think she's saying if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck. ie. the TC is ducking and hoping not to be seen doing what they're doing: raising ducks taxes. |
mrmaplewood
Citizen
Username: Mrmaplewood
Post Number: 254
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:08 pm: | |
Oh, I see the point. But higher taxes - not what I want to see. More efficient spending. |
george H
Citizen
Username: Georgieboy
Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 5:46 pm: | |
Lets not forget how our sewer bills were raise a few tears ago under the guise of a one time fee for infra-structure repair of the joint counties, which somehow or other became a permanent increase.I believe the increase was 75 dollars per household and at the time didn't garner much attention.A lot of citizens have short memories .Any tax,on anything,becomes part of our shared permanent obligation,the key word being permanent. |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3883
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 5:57 pm: | |
George,
Yes, and if this referendum is passed it's a permanent increase.
I'm trying to figure out where Kathy's figure of $210,000 comes from exactly.
If the $210,000 is a percentage of Maplewood's total assessed value, that includes all property, not only tax-paying properties.
The total assessed value includes our schools, municipal buildings, libraries and houses of worship - right?
So the $2.1 billion sum that Kathy Leventhal derived the $210,000 doesn't mean that it will result in a $25 portion for the average taxpayer, because a big chunk of the town's assessed value is tax-exempt.
I think.
Maybe someone else can figure out the gazintas. |
mck
Supporter
Username: Mck
Post Number: 747
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 6:33 pm: | |
Algebra 2 and Dave and BillP and Crabby have all the bases covered, so I won't rehash their reasons as to why this referendum is a bad idea. Frankly, I thought it was a Sbenois-like joke when I first heard about it. Oh, right, a tax payers fund to buy open space in a town a 4 minute drive from the multi thousand acre South Mountain Reservation! Actually, we are also tax payers in Essex County, and as such will be paying for multi-million dollars worth of badly needed renewal and repair in the Reservation.
I might consider voting for a fund that was designated just to keep up what we already have: I noticed all the new, dead shrubs in Memorial Park, too - but this open ended fraud? Never.
By the way, in my part of town, things are not getting "spiffier." A stressed homeowner with an extra 25 bucks to spend should not have to shell out for ill- defined "open space", or for a pot of money that dog owners and skate boarders will fight over. The wording of the referendum is weasel wording, and reflects weasely government.
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algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3884
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 6:53 pm: | |
mck,
"Actually, we are also tax payers in Essex County, and as such will be paying for multi-million dollars worth of badly needed renewal and repair in the Reservation."
We already pay for a similar "open space" fund to Essex county.
The way the the referendum is worded and considering that most voters will encounter it for the first time in the voting booth and have 10 seconds to decide to vote yea or nay...it will pass.
If there's any solace, I'm certain Kathy Leventhal will not be re-elected when the voters wake up and recognize this shell game for what it is.
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Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 6373
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 7:05 pm: | |
Algebra2:
I think you are being unfair to Kathy. She is not saying in her post whether she is in favor of this referendum or opposed to it.
I think she deserves our thanks for bringing the referendum to our attention and giving us the opportunity to have a meaningful dialog on the pros and cons of this proposal before we encounter it on the ballot in November.
If you feel that this is an ill conceived proposal and that few people know that referendum will be on the ballot, you now have time to get the word out. |
crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 267
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 9:42 pm: | |
e-hem. I think I was the one who brought it to people's attention, not Kathy - here on MOL anyway. Is there a plan to get this out into the newspaper? If people had not started asking questions here on MOL, would anyone even have addressed it? Why is it we voters are the ones who have to press to get "the word out"? There's only a month before the election. Do you think anyone was even planning on posting the info here unless I had brought it up in the "what's all this I hear about" thread?
It seems that you think posters seem to be ganging up on Kathy, but Joan, Kathy favors this referendum. It's her idea. |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3886
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 9:51 pm: | |
Joan,
Perhaps Ms. Leventhal can clarify.
She reads MOL and posts sometimes.
Rumor has it she instructed the Democratic bunch to support her referendum.
If I'm wrong, Ms. Leventhal can clear it up.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 9447
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 8:04 am: | |
Algebra, if the TC wasn't in favor of the referendum they wouldn't have put it on the ballot.
I see a lot of the "antis" points of view. However, the sad fact is that park and sport field improvements tend to get short shift because of budget restraints. As someone who spent years picking gravel out of our kids knees because of poor field maintenance I am will to spend the `
less than 50 cents a day so that other kids will have a better experience.
However, to each their own. |
crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 272
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 10:33 am: | |
I have to admit, we do need more trash cans around the parks.
But what's all this I hear about the parks and Rec dept getting 90 days sick leave per year - which costs us a bundle in overtime. Let's fix that loophole, and maybe we can better maintain our parks/fields. |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3887
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 5:52 pm: | |
Bobk,
"However, the sad fact is that park and sport field improvements tend to get short shift because of budget restraints. As someone who spent years picking gravel out of our kids knees because of poor field maintenance I am will to spend the `
less than 50 cents a day so that other kids will have a better experience."
Agreed.
Riddle me this Bob: Why do you assume the money generated from the open space referendum will go towards field maintenance?
We don't know if the money will be spent at all.
All the referendum says it that the money will be collected and if spent, it is to be spent on a variety of projects.
Who decides when and if the money will be spent? Who decides what projects merit the open space money if it's not for open space?
The Township Committee?
The Department of Recreation?
An ad hoc citizen's group?
A poll of voters?
Another referendum?
Yes, the fields need work. We have a budget where reasonable expenditures are documented and accounted for.
If we can't budget for $210,000 for field maintanence, than I conclude either:
a) field maintantence is unnecessary.
b) field maintanence is necessary but our elected leaders don't want to raise our taxes and be held accountable for the decision
That's not leadership, that's sneaky.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 9736
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 8:58 pm: | |
Algebra2, you're a clear headed thinker. We need you over in the all-politics soapbox section.
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Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 6380
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 6:54 am: | |
I still think this is an attempt to do an end run around the municipal spending cap. If trust funds could be created for senior citizen programs, anti-terrorism activities, capital construction, mass transit, or some other category of expenditure, we would be seeing a referendum for that program rather than for open space.
Remember, this is the same TC that thought it was a good idea to increase revenue by disbanding the volunteer First Aid Squad and assigning their activities to a paid fire department, so the town could collect revenue by billing patients for ambulence transport. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 5441
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 3:59 pm: | |
TS and I disagree on this - she also thinks that there is no accountability in terms of the budget and that we pay too much.
I am not sure; in principle, I need to see more of the figures before I decide if this is bad budgeting or just plain old lack of money.
I would pay if I knew that the money was going directly to maintaining our parks. Or building things like skate-parks or dog runs that give kids something productive to do. It would break my heart if, for example, the town greenhouse were shut down & the flower plantings stopped.
IMHO, little things like this help keep "slum-creep" away. Irvington and Newark were also beautiful, well-kept towns at one point.
It already makes me nervous that someone asked if it could be geared towards "parking spaces". I also notice that the people most willing to pony up seem to be those who have lived here quite awhile and probably have next-to-nothing mortgages. The reality is that a lot of new folks, especially young families, have moved in over just the last couple of years. I'm fairly sure that they paid more than $150k-$200k for their houses. I'd hate to see these folks driv75 jumen out by the straw that broke the camel's back.
And what happens after the next reval, when my assessed value of $275k jumps to $500k? That's almost double what I am agreeing to now if I vote for this referendum.
I would like to know if the funds can accumulate and whether the money can be locked in an airtight manner to stricly go towards the parks and activities. 'Cause I'm still waiting for my sewer taxes to go down, too. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 9449
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 5:09 pm: | |
Greenie, our taxes are over $17,000 per year (about double what they were pre reval btw) and between our mortgage and a home equity loan, used for the kids college, we aren't rolling in money, I assure you. In general, people who moved here in the last six years or so are considerably more affluent than "old timers".
When budget crunch time comes, and it gets worse every year (in no small part to your hero George W) things get cut. When it comes down to repair and maintenance of parks and sports fields vs. public health, guess what gets cut?
Many of you don't trust government and I can't say I am always a fan. But, in the end, I think the current TC is about as economical as they can be.
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6023
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 7:59 pm: | |
Bobk,
On one hand you bitch about W and the budget crunch you claim he's responsible for. In the next sentence you tell Kathy you will support this moronic tax hike for the stupid. Open space, my •••.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 5446
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 9:01 pm: | |
Bob, where on earth did you get the idea that W is my hero? I was being completely honest when I said I have no idea whether the $$$ shortage is a true shortage or bad management.
I also said that I would have no problem if the money went for a specific purpose - as long as the budget truly warrants it and there are mechanisms built in against a sudden jump after a future reval.
My taxes are absurd, considering that I am well into the east side of town. We are relative newcomers (8 years) and our taxes have also doubled in that time. We are not affluent by any means. So, I am not sure why my post upset you so much. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 9453
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 5:11 am: | |
Greenie, The "W" remark was addressed to Alg and Straw, not you.
I went off a little, because of your assumption that people who have lived here for awhile are living the life of luxury. Many of us aren't.
Staw, The TC has control of about 20 percent of our tax dollars. Every year there is a scramble to provide basic services such as police and fire. I don't have a problem with a quarter a day for open speaces, parks and fields. It is a trust, so I don't think the TC can raid the fund for other purposes. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 5448
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 9:13 am: | |
Bob - Trust me, I do not make that assumption. I do, however, think that long-timers have more of a cushion, be it equity to send kids to college or absorb a tax increase, than newcomers.
That cushion allowed us to renovate. Of course, we now no longer have a cushion. So, when the price of heating oil and gas go up, I am much more stressed out than I would have been a year & a half ago. |
crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 274
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 10:38 am: | |
See how money makes us all crazy? We should vote no to the referendum and make them figure out a more effective budget.
One place to save - fix the park/rec contract that gives employees 90 sick days. Can this even be true? Someone official or park employee please addresss this. It's got to be costing a bundle in overtime.
Another place to save some $$ - stop paving the streets when they don't need it!!! The last time our street was paved there was nary a crack anywhere - and no potholes. Too much paving is a sure sign that we do not really have a budget problem. Streets don't cost that much to pave over (especially if they are not digging up old road surface), but the annual budget for that has got to be what Kathy is proposing for the parks, woops, I mean Open Space. |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3888
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 10:46 am: | |
Crabby,
Good starting points.
BobK,
Q: When have I ever said I support Dubya?
I'll save you a search...two words:
A: Nev-vah
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 9759
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 11:44 am: | |
crabby,
Last year, I learned here on MOL that they were doing something called micro-surfacing. The argument put forth was that it was an investment in the streets to make them last longer. I don't know if that's true, but if it is, then it's OK with me. That would explain why they paved streets that were good enough for the time.
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dom
Citizen
Username: Dom
Post Number: 21
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 12:01 pm: | |
what would be the best way to inform maplewood citizens of the facts of this tax hike in case they don't go on MOL? When youre in the booth and you just see the term "open spaces" I think alot of people would be inclined to vote "yes" without knowing all of this backstory... |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4138
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 12:14 pm: | |
"...what would be the best way to inform Maplewood citizens"
...depending how strong you feel about it, you could always speak before the township committee. The meetings are shown on Cable 35 to the residents. You could also write a letter to the editor of the News Record. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 9459
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 12:46 pm: | |
Alg, sorry 'bout that. I forgot that you don't necessarily agree with Straw all the time. |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 6392
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 2:39 pm: | |
Dom:
If you really feel strongly about the upcoming referendum, you could follow the above suggestions: write a letter to the newsrecord (and hope they print it before election day); speak about it at a TC meeting (and hope the time slot awarded to persons addressing the TC is early enough in the evening for a significant number of people to still be watching) or you could:
(1) Bring it up in discussion with your friends and neighbors who live in Maplewood and are apt to be voting in November.
(2) Convince one or more of the TC candidates to make the referendum (and the budget issue which likely lead to its being on the ballot in the first place) an issue in this year's TC election.
(3) Submit a question on this issue to the persons determining the questions to be included in this year's TC candidate debate(s).
(4) Print up fliers, set up a table in front of the bank or the post office on one or more Saturday mornings between now and the election and campaign for/against the referendum, depending on your point of view. |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6031
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 3:38 pm: | |
Q: When have I ever said I support Dubya?
I'll save you a search...two words:
A: Nev-vah
The locks on the house have been changed.
|
mrmaplewood
Citizen
Username: Mrmaplewood
Post Number: 255
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 4:08 pm: | |
Or don't write a letter to the News Record editor. The only time I ever did, they changed the wording and reversed the meaning, then they printed it. Never again. Jerks! |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3890
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 6:09 pm: | |
Straw,
"The locks on the house have been changed."
Boring. |
maplewood fan
Citizen
Username: Mplwfan
Post Number: 203
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 4:50 pm: | |
Don't talk to me about fields, all summer we played baseball on the fields in South Orange. We live in Maplewood, why can't my kid play baseball in Maplewood. Also, when we traveled to other towns, we couldn't believe the facilities. Given this and all of the other posts, I'm not sure about this referendum. |
Rick B
Citizen
Username: Ruck1977
Post Number: 850
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 8:30 am: | |
Art, "Anyone else want to Pay to Play?" -- we already pay to play. Thats the whole point. You should say "Pay more to Play".
Its hard to believe that our TC would be trying to scam us on a referendum question. Fact is, people are going to see "$.01" and "open space" and think, sure, that sounds good. Granted, it is the repsonsibility of the voter to understand this, but this smells of misleading verbiage.
Can someone start to list examples of the problems with our parks and facilities, I mean actual examples? Has this been a long and ongoing issue? I have only lived in Mwood for 2 years, but I frequent many of the parks. Problems I have seen are a few pieces of trash thrown around here and there. I also see kids playing in the parks every nice day. What exactly are the issues?
Someone said they are OK with a ballooning tax if it saves them from having to pick small pebbles out of their child's skinned knee? Does that mean you want the baseball fields to be made of felt? I don't get it. Did you ever slide into second base? Most likely your going to end up with an abrasion.
Many of you talked about your own budget process, and that each year you may or may not have to cut certain things out of your life. Those are hard decisions, to tell your family that you are going to have to give up so and so. Why should you not hold your elected officials to the same responsibility. Your family looks to you to be fiscally responsible. Maybe instead you could tell your employer that your budget no longer covers so and so, and that you need more money. That might work...
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dom
Citizen
Username: Dom
Post Number: 22
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 12:08 pm: | |
maplewood fan, you don't have to go to south orange- there are 2 baseball fields in memorial park on valley street... |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 230
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 12:29 pm: | |
I think the issue is that the Maplewood ball fields are in much worse shape than those in SO. Since the baseball programs merged this year, they schedule games in both towns. Our schedule had us playing much more often in SO........the kids and coaches seemed to really notice the poor conditions in Mplwd......the infields are rutted, bumpy, and difficult. Neither town has pitchers mounds on any of the fields except one. Instead, the minors pitch from these cruddy plastic pseudo-mounds that the kids are forever slipping off of.
That said, all of the fields are in better shape than the pathetic fields belonging to CHS. I took my 9 y/o son there to practice yesterday and we ended up just leaving. They are in very bad shape in general, and even worse, they are covered in goose droppings. I prefer not to have my son sliding into second thru a pile of s**t.
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Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 6419
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 12:32 pm: | |
There are baseball fields in several parks in Maplewood but they may not have been used by the baseball program Maplewood Fan's child was enrolled in, possibly because these fields were being used for other summer recreation programs.
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