| Author |
Message |
    
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6083
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 9:55 am: | 
|
I actually agree with Steel - this type of business has a high-impact on neighbors. For any other home alterations, immediate neighbors must be notified. I can't think of anything more impactful than a revolving door at the neighbor's house. The ordinance should have measures to take all sides into account. No one has said that neighbors can nix the business; only that they should be informed and have a chance to have concerns addressed before it's a done deal. You know very well that it is quite difficult to take away a license once issued. Did you yourself not go right to court the first time there was a problem?
As a taxpayer, I want to know that there are sufficient safeguards in place that my taxes will not go to numerous lawsuits that the township has to spend defending these types of things. We've been thru this with Les Saisons and don't get me started on the frivolous crap with the CHS holiday music debacle.
From what I can tell, Fred has said that they want to proceed with the ordinance. Sounds like more of a "how" than a "whether" issue. It's getting hard to participate on this thread because it had turned into an Art Polemic.
Art- at the risk of sounding like a broken record, please let those of us who support the B&B ordinance weigh in without trying to steer our input. I think that it is unrealistic to think that local history will factor into the ordinance. Please consider lowering the rhetoric and trying to work with everyone. You will not get unequivocable, blind support. Let's calm down and make it happen, already. |
steel
Citizen
Username: Steel
Post Number: 861
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
|
-I have posted early in this thread the sort of protections to the town and individuals that I think would be warranted to allow B&Bs in Maplewood. Others have done the same. I await to see what the subcommittee does in that regard. What they have previously recommended is irrelevant as it was basically dismissed by the planning board as insufficient.
As to notifying citizens of an impending ordinance which might uniquely and greatly affect a relatively select few person's property, property values and quality of life it would be precautionary and wise to do so whether it requires knocking on the few dozen doors involved or sending certified letters to those who may be impacted, (excellent idea Art). -All the better to avoid future trouble and town lawsuits. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4414
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 1:46 pm: |
|
I’m sorry Greene, but I disagree with both you and Steel… But can we still be friends?
Listen, I would appreciate it if both of you will stay in the conversation. I respect your opinions, even though we don’t always agree with each other. Do you think it has anything to do with our politics... ;-)
IMHO, the B&B business doesn’t have anymore of an impact on neighbors than most other home based businesses, or for that matter, any of our local residents either. No business, no location, no residents anywhere today has a lock on good people, bad people, or the number of people who come and go from their properties. That’s just a fact!
The truth of the matter is, the majority of all B&B guests are friends and relatives of local residents. The traffic in many cases would not be more than an average family of four would generate. And, I can’t help but resent the idea that guests who stay at B&B’s are any worst than the people who come and go from all the other home based businesses in town. And that’s a fact too!!
Seeing as how this matter seems to keep returning to the experience with me and my neighbors, and because one of them no longer lives next door to me, lets compare their illegal home based business of boarding up to 18 dogs in their home, to my B&B home. Given you say you know all the players personally, maybe you can appreciate the comparison better than most.
The differences between my neighbor’s former “Bed and Bone” and my “Bed and Breakfast” was they always had more dogs than I had guests, their guests defecated all over their property and up and down Elmwood Avenue and mine used the bathroom, their guests were there 24/7 and would bark early in the morning and late at night and mine would leave in the morning, return at night and listened to me when I told them to keep it down. I could go on, but you get the point.
The point is, my immediate neighbors, plus untold numbers of local residents around town all allowed the illegal Bed & Bone to operate up until they day they moved, but yet some of my opponents still continue to fight me tooth and nail.
Lets be real, do you still think this is just about running a B&B, or is it a personal war where they are using the B&B as a means to the end they seek?
Seriously, there were people who boarded their dogs there, and also boarded their families here. What’s the difference? I’ll tell you from my experience, the only difference is when people can’t get along with their neighbors and they’re unwilling to compromise, they’ll keep fighting to the bitter end. In the meantime, my problems with my neighbors really has less to do with the B&B, and more about finding a way to compromise. It’s very difficult to do when one side refuses to try.
On your other issue, “You know very well that it is quite difficult to take away a license once issued.” Really? That was not my experience at all, and I doubt it will be in the future.
The Township of Maplewood legally licensed me for a number of years. They then found a loophole in their process, immediately nullified my license to operate, took me to court, and closed me down until at great expense I finally managed to overturn the Municipal Court ruling in Superior Court. So, as a taxpayer, I also don’t want my taxes going to fight me when this was a matter the neighbors should have paid for totally, like I had to pay for on my own. BTW, this is no frivolous crap.
As for Fred, this is not just about Fred. The township committee voted unanimously to finally bring this important matter of community interest to a public debate, and a vote. It’s long, long past due, and you and hundreds of others know the value this can bring to our community if handled properly. Trying to make this a big deal about “Quality of Life” is a two edged sword.
Personally, my wish is that we can get off the partisan negative aspects of this matter and on to the “Fair and Balanced” view. Lets discuss how to make this work for the good of the community, not how we can kill it for the few NIMBY’s that will always be there no matter what it is that wants to move into their neighborhood.
It wasn’t that long ago we had great racial strife here in Maplewood. We didn’t cut and run, no we formed the CCR and everyday we continue to work hard at bringing harmony and diversity to our town. The B&B Ordinance is no different. It can and it will bring good things to Maplewood for all our residents if we work at doing it, rather than running from it.
IMHO, this continues to be a lot to do about nothing. Lets try to be honest about this. Given some of the guidelines we’ve heard so far, do either of you two have neighbors with at least a minimum of half-acre lots, with five or more bedrooms and bathrooms, and paved parking in the rear for four or more cars? And, how about the rest of you following this? How many residents do you all know who are empty nesters, or would be willing or able to convert their homes into bed and breakfasts? I highly doubt many of you know of even one or two at the most.
FWIW, I never wanted this to be an Art argument, and it’s you and Steel who keep referencing Les Saisons, not me.
So please, if as you both have said, if you really want to support the B&B ordinance, then why not weigh in without trying to shut me up.
Why not try to come up with real solutions to the issues raised rather than just speaking to the potnetional problems? If you guys really want this to happen then help us find a way.
Listen, this doesn’t have to be about me. Yes, I’ve fought for this ordinance for the hundreds of families in town I know need it and want it. But, what if I was to say I would be willing have the town somehow exclude me from getting a B&B license until my remaining two opposing neighbors agreed to it, or if they move? Everyone who knows me knows this is more about my life style, not how I earn my living. Would that make everyone happy? Would the town and some of you be willing to lighten up on some of these ridiculous restrictions that have little to do with the issues around having B&Bs live in harmony within the community?
Would this calm things down and make it happen, already? |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1086
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
|
As a resident of South Orange, I'm mostly staying out of this one...I'd love to have a B&B available in the two towns for use of overflow guests. However, I also want to be able to assume that it will be somewhere where the houses are widely spaced (Montrose?) rather than in my neighbor's house! Sorting out what makes a fair law on this would be tough even without the kind of history that Art and his neighbors have...best of luck!
The studies seem to suggest that the economics are wrong for a small hotel, even here in South Orange, with Seton Hall visitors, so a few well thought out B&Bs seem to be the best hope.
By the way, Steel, you need to come to South Orange more often, based on your quote "Also, bear in mind that if South Orange ever builds, (starts?) their mighty 'Arts Center' that that could also add to the total package." All the major steel is up, the sides are going on, and completion is scheduled for some time in 2006. Come by, have a look, and let us know if you need restaurant reccomendations!
|
oots
Citizen
Username: Oots
Post Number: 301
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
|
is there supposed to be a hotel built in south orange-beifus prop?
oots |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
|
No. Condos and retail.
Hotel was discussed years ago, but the numbers just didn't work, I believe. |
steel
Citizen
Username: Steel
Post Number: 862
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 9:36 am: |
|
Susan, I thank you for the update on the Arts Center. |
weekends
Citizen
Username: Weekends
Post Number: 83
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
|
On balance, I don't believe that B&Bs are needed here in Maplewood. While it would be an occasional convenience, the downside (the many ways it would change the character of a residential neighborhood) outweighs any potential benefit.
|
extuscan
Citizen
Username: Extuscan
Post Number: 536
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:51 pm: |
|
Just to throw this out there... Timothy Ball house was a B&B at one point. Was called the "Washington Inn"
-John |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4416
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 8:17 pm: |
|
The Timothy Ball house was a B&B at one point, and called the "Washington Inn."
WOW, even Timothy Ball and Geroge Washington felt Maplewood was a good place for a B&B. Now if that's not a positive endorsement to bring B&Bs back, I don't know what is? |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4557
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:54 am: |
|
The Planning Board meeting last night went very well...
The subcommittee managed to put together a work product, draft ordinance, and although the subcommittee is still opposed to bed and breakfast services for Maplewood residents, the full Planning Board voted to reject their position against it.
Hopefully, the work draft will now go to the Township Committee this month for their further consideration and to prepare the full ordinance. Maybe Dave Ross will be willing to bring up their report again for everyone to see and comment on? I will reserve my comments until everyone else has an opportunity to comment first.
BTW, I believe the next step after the TC review will be to present an "INTRODUCTION OF NEW ORDINANCE" hopefully sometime in January 2006.
|
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4602
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 2:39 pm: |
|
Who knows better, those committed to do something, or those who prefer that you didn't?
Have you ever wondered how expert some people in charge really are? You may enjoy, "The Experts Speak: The Definitive Compendium of Authoritative Misinformation (Revised Edition) by Victor S. Navasky and Christopher Cerf, published by Random House." Here are a few entertaining samples:
"Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." -- Irving Fisher, professor of economics at Yale University, October 17, 1929
"Forget it, Louis, no Civil War picture ever made a nickel." -- Irving Thalberg's warning to Louis B. Mayer regarding Gone With the Wind
"We don't like their sound. Groups of guitars are on the way out." -- Decca Recording Company executive, turning down the Beatles, 1962
"With over fifty foreign cars already on sale here the Japanese auto industry isn't likely to carve out a big share of the market for itself." -- Business Week, 1968
"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home." -- President of Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977
"The Planning Board subcommittee believes that, for a number of reasons it would be a mistake to allow B&B's in Maplewood. There is little destination logic for Maplewood as a locale for B&B's,..." –- A Statistics and Historical/Economic overview and comments as follows:
My lifetime experience here in Maplewood has been the exact opposite of the subcommittee report, which was fortunately not accepted by the entire committee. I believe there has to be a lot of destination logic when there are no hotels or motels in the immediate area… IMHO, B&B’s can be as important to some communities as the local grocery store. More studies are showing an ever increasing segment of our nation’s population has a regular need for local accommodations to house friends and relatives. The following is according to statistics about U.S. B&B’s compiled by the Professional Association of Innkeepers International (PAII) : www.paii.org. :
In 1980, there were only one thousand B&Bs/Country Inns serving one million guests. In 2001, there were over 19,000 professionally-run, fully licensed Bed and Breakfasts/Country Inns, plus 10,000 Home-Stay B&Bs, collectively serving a total of 55 million guests annually."
The Professional Association of Innkeepers International has published the Eighth Biennial Bed-and-Breakfast & Country Inns PAII Industry Study - 2002 of Operations, Marketing, and Finance with 876 B&Bs and Country Inns participating in the study. The economic conditions last year showed that although the overall industry occupancy rate declined last year, B&B's declined substantially less than the decreases experienced by full-service hotels during the same period. Additionally, the average daily rate paid by B&B guests increased during this period. The net result was a 2.8% growth in total revenues compared to declines in the hotel sector.
In an article accompanying the study, hospitality industry expert Robert Mandelbaum suggests that B&Bs weathered the economic downturn because of such "Unique Characteristics" as their orientation toward leisure travelers, guest loyalty, the perceived value of the B&B/country inn experience, and the owner-operated management structure of most B&B's. Key study findings also show the average number of rooms for B&B’s is 8, up from 7 rooms in 1999, with 95% offering rooms with private baths.
The Historical Significance and Community Involvement with B&B’s is high. According to the PAII, not only have B&B owners renovated more historical buildings than any other industry segment, but their efforts also help to preserve the history, traditions, and culture of their towns, cities, and/or regions. Old pictures, books, furniture, memorabilia are returned to the historic homes in which they originated by way of innkeepers or the original families who owned the homes, allowing them to serve as repositories for the preservation of history in their locale.
It is important to note that buildings housing B&B's are among some of the best one family housing stock in America, with homes on average 100 years in age. PAII reports that, "Innkeepers are extensively involved in their communities, unlike hotel managers who move frequently from one location to another. The personal commitment to the quality of the community by owner-innkeepers is very high, and cannot be measured."
I’m continuing to seek support for having the Township Committee pass a Bed and Breakfast ordinance next year. I would very much appreciate if any of you with questions would contact me by E-mail or by phone. I also have blank petitions for anyone willing to sign. Thank you and here’s wishing everyone a very healthy, happy, and prosperous New Year. Art Christensen (973) 699-8276 |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 11644
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:54 am: |
|
Rather than asking us to come forth to sign, can you pass it around somehow? I would definitely sign, and I'm sure others would, too.
|
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 750
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:34 am: |
|
ajc, after speaking with you earlier tonight, I have come back to reread this thread. I think that you misunderstood what I had written here. I said that I would support this if most of the people around the immediate area supported it. As I said, there are always going to be one or two people who would oppose just about anything, but if the rest of the reasonable, sane people in the area supported this, then I would have no problems with this.
I think a B&B would do well in this town, and is probably needed. However, I feel the important issue here is location. I do not feel that an appropriate location for a B&B would be in the middle of a group of residents that opposed it.
|
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6471
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 10:40 am: |
|
Art- I think that everyone here agrees that B&Bs are great and no one is arguing with the positive aspects. You keep posting all these studies & supportive facts, but I don't think that this is the issue.
At the end of the day, it comes down to how they will be licensed and regulated in Maplewood. I can't recall one post that says that they flat out don't think it is a good idea.
I would sign a circulated petition if it includes language about working with the TC to set guidelines so that the least amount of inconvenience is experienced by the neighbors.
I won't rehash my opinion on what those guidelines are, as I posted them earlier in this thread. But, I will say that the regs need to accomodate anyone who may want to consider this. Not everyone has a property as large as yours and the same rules that make things work at your place in our neighborhood could make it very disruptive for others. Example: if I decide to open a B&B, I have an extra bedroom and a parking space. But I also have neighbors on several sides with young children, with the next door one as close as 15 feet away. I can certainly see why they would object to my having continuous strangers in my home. Sometimes I think that you take any objections or suggestions for regulations as a personal attack. It's not about you; it's making sure that anyone who wants to open such a business does so in a manner that is safe for the neighbors.
At any rate, Tom is right; you'll probably get more signatures if you are proactive rather than asking people to come to you. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4606
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
|
"I do not feel that an appropriate location for a B&B would be in the middle of a group of residents that opposed it."
I hear you Mayor McCheese, but that's NOT the problem here. First of all, this matter is not meant to be about just me, but about an ordinance to allow as many as four B&B's in town. However, knowing that your relationship to this issue is about your support for one my neighbors, I'll address your concern as if this was just about me.
Alright, only 16%, or three out of 18 families that live on my property line have come out in opposition to my bed and breakfast. FYI, the issue with this "small group of residents" is, and always has been strictly personal. These same few people who say they oppose a B&B at my location are the same people who say (BTW, on the record) that they are in favor of it in a business district on Springfield Avenue or some place else, just "Not In My (their) Back Yard"..... Listen, if the whole world operated on a NIMBY mindset, we would all still be living in the Dark Ages.
FWIW, no one is trying to recreate the wheel here in Maplewood. Please keep in mind that the latest national estimates indicate there are over 35,000 Bed and Breakfasts/Country Inns, and Home-Stay B&Bs, collectively serving more than 55 million guests annually. B&B's are a well establish world wide industry, and almost without exception they're all located in one family homes in one family neighborhoods.
Hey, what kind of Mayor are you anyway? Ask anyone what's the one service that's missing in Maplewood and South Orange, and they'll tell you it's not having a place locally for family and friends to stay over.
Listen, your last post repeated your position on this matter, "I said that I would support this if most of the people around the immediate area supported it." I'll prove they do! So, are you a man of your word? Let’s see?
First, the "immediate areas” of any property are the properties on both sides, behind, and in front. At the last public hearing on this matter only three neighbors on my left side came out against the ordinance, while none of the remaining 15 families located behind, on the right, or in front opposed.
Now speaking of directly in front of my property, there are over 350 voting residents at Winchester Gardens who ALL favor having a bed and breakfast ordinance. And FWIW, the three out of the 18 neighbors who surround my property want you to believe all of us are located in this cozy private ONE FAMILY NEIGHBORHOOD. WRONG!!!
Please, check out the neighborhood. On the right side of my property are all two family homes, while the properties on all three sides have the back of their garages less than five feet from my property line. Within a stones throw and in direct line of site is the entrance to Winchester Gardens with hundreds of cars, trucks and people coming and going 24/7. In the other directions is the Community Pool, the Rescue Squad, Garden Apartments, NJ Transit, Public Service, a small group of stores, and last but not least we’re all located only two blocks from the Irvington line. Maybe these neighbors of mine would rather see me tear down my 165 year old house and build 5 or 6 two family houses in its place?
OK Mayor McCheese, those are the facts. Several hundred people have already signed in favor of an ordinance, and it’s clear most of the people around my immediate area are in support it. When can I come get your signature?
|
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 752
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
|
ajc, While I have a few small problems with your response, none of them are even related to the reason for my opposition. However, if what you say is truely the case, then I will sign it. But first I will hear from the other side. I do not think that you would misrepresent the facts here, but often times people on two sides of an issue have different views on the same event.
Just one question. You said that only 3 are families opposed. Does this mean that the rest of the neighbors signed your petition, and are for the B&B located there?
|
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4607
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:47 pm: |
|
Greene, thanks again for you input.
Listen, I am being pro-active with the petition, and I’m going door to door just like my neighbors have in the past. The only difference is I’m not begging for money like they did to fight this matter. As to the matter of protecting the rights of those few homes that may in the future have a B&B next to them, I believe it does and please think about this if you will.
First of all, given the initial draft of the ordinance, only a very few properties in town may qualify, plus, the town only plans to allow four or five to begin with. Question, how many of you reading this live on a main artery road, who have neighbors with 100’ fronts and quarter/half acre lots, have four or five extra bedrooms with private baths, have 4 or 5 extra parking spaces at least 15’ to 20’ off their property line, and that you would be even remotely interested in opening a B&B? I doubt if anyone knows of very many, or even one such property.
As for how they will be licensed and regulated in Maplewood, IMHO, with the teeth they put into the initial draft, I believe most people would rather do battle with a Great White Shark…
FWIW, I’m confident that when the TC takes a closer look at the similarities to our existing ordinances that protect the quality of life issues of all residents, they’ll find little need to replicate them in some areas of the final draft of their B&B ordinance. When push comes to shove there’s really little difference between a B&B and a normal private one family home. Owners of B&B’s are residents, neighbors, and just as much, if not more, an active, law abiding part of any community as anyone else is. Let’s take a look.
1. For the most part, the number of bedrooms set the number of people that can legally live in any one family home. On the other hand, a B&B home is limited to only 4 or 5 rooms for guests, will need more bathrooms and parking, yet in most cases will have less activity than a regular one family where people live there year round.
2. One family homes, and especially those that engage in permitted home based businesses, are just as likely to have strangers coming and going as a local B&B housing local residents family and friends.
3. Residents living year round in one family homes are also just as likely to make noise, have parties, and are actually more likely to disturb the peace than a guest is. B&B guests spend little or no time at the B&B. Less than half of the guests drive cars. B&B guests mostly come in at night to sleep, and leave in the morning to spend time visiting family or friends.
Greene, you said, “I would sign a circulated petition if it includes language about working with the TC to set guidelines so that the least amount of inconvenience is experienced by the neighbors.” I believe the petition says that, and that that is the only way the committee would pass it anyway….
FYI, the petition says in part, there is presently before the Township Committee, language for a proposed ordinance, which would allow bed and breakfast’s to operate on certain large lots with appropriate physical and parking restrictions, and only pursuant to a revocable license.
Therefore, we the undersigned residents of Maplewood petition the Maplewood township committee to pass an ordinance removing the prohibition on bed and breakfast operations, upon reasonable conditions which it sees fit to impose.
BTW, I also agree with Tom and I’ll be visiting as many of you as I can. I would really appreciate a cup of hot chocolate and some homemade cookie’s when I do... ;-)
|
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4608
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
|
Dear Mayor McCheese, I will be happy to respond to your few small problems with my response. I’m also willing to wait to hear from the other side, as I know very well there are two sides to most issues.
BTW, what I said was, “At the last public hearing on this matter only three neighbors on my left side came out against the ordinance, while none of the remaining 15 families located behind, on the right, or in front opposed.”
I did NOT say that the rest of the neighbors signed my petition, and were for having a B&B at my property. However, I believe if they were opposed they would have come out or some way made me and others well aware of their feelings.
Listen, I believe most reasonable people understand that there’s bad blood between two (2) families out of the 18 families that live on the boarders of my property. Some of the 15 others have shared with me that they don’t want to get in the middle of this fight. Who can blame them? IMO, everyone should respect their feelings on this subject.
The 18th neighbor that just recently moved next to the other two, I counted as one of the three neighbors who showed up at the meeting. I introduced myself to him one time when he first moved in, and he seemed friendly enough. I don’t know why he’s sitting with the other two at the meetings, and to be honest I’d rather not guess.
I believe I understood from our brief conversation last night at the bar that this was not a personal issue between you and me, and that you are basically in favor of having B&B's in our community.
I also got that you have a friend who is a friend of my two neighbors and he sides with them. I know that can be difficult, but if this is not about B&B's in general, and is not about me personally, I then hope we can move this issue forward based on the value it will bring to Maplewood.
So, please tell me how else can I help you, to help me, to help the community with providing what appears to be much needed B&B services for our town?
|
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 754
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 10:36 pm: |
|
Thank you for your answer. The reason I asked was because from your post I was getting the idea that while these 2 (or 3) families were against the B&B, the others were for it. And this does not seem to be the case, as you have cleared up for me.
As I told you in person, I have no problem with B&Bs operating in town. I would even go as far as to say that they would help the town. However, I do not live in the immediate area that this particular B&B is located, and therefore my opinion should not matter as much as those who do live in the area. I would not be one of the ones who either benefited or had complaints about the establishment.
|
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4612
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 12:13 am: |
|
That's some pretty fancy double talk McCheese...
The only thing that made any sense was when you said, "my opinion should not matter...," but thanks for sharing anyway and Happy New year. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 755
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 12:31 pm: |
|
I thought I made myself very clear. You are the one playing with half truths and omissions. You say that only a few oppose this B&B, but really this means that only a few showed to the town meeting. From what I have heard and what you have said (after some pushing and some questions) is that the other neighbors are not in fact for this B&B, they are just not outspokenly opposed to it.
That is correct, my opinion on this should not matter, along with the other names on the petition you have collected that do not live around your B&B. This is something for you, your neighbors, and the town to work out. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 11659
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 2:28 pm: |
|
It would be a township-wide ordinance, and the ordinance should look ahead to the future when Art will eventually be dead (sorry, Art) and future B&B's will exist in locations we can't yet predict. Are B&B's a good idea in general? If so, then the objections that Art's neighbors have don't necessarily speak to the collective opinion of the town, if there is one.
|
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1645
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 2, 2006 - 2:34 pm: |
|
I guess I don't get what all the negatives of a B&B are. You are basically forcing someone to make sure their home looks like a showplace 24/7. I've stayed in dozens of B&B's, all were located in neighborhoods, and all seemed to blend in perfectly. That's kind of the point of a B&B.
I can't imagine a B&B owner would be exempt from any of the rules and regulations that govern everyone else. Still can't have loud parties. Still can't have illegal parking.
I'd love to see a B&B (or three) in town.
|
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4621
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 1:29 am: |
|
McCheese, it’s time to wake up and smell the Roquefort pal...
I got your message loud and clear, now get mine! Your insistence on repeatedly returning the conversation to the issues about me and my neighbors is getting annoying.
The petition is to request support for an ordinance to permit a limited number of properties in Maplewood to operate a B&B under strict guidelines to protect residents and the public alike.
Any issue between my neighbors and me is not your business! You’ve said this is something for me, my neighbors, and the town to work out, and that your opinion on this shouldn’t matter. I agree!
You’ve made your point on B&B’s, so why not move back to recreational drugs and smoking issues, where you seem to be more knowledgeable...
|
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 756
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
|
ajc, I'm not quite sure where you were going with that last comment, but I am sure of one thing now. I am begining to see why your neighbors hate you. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4623
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 5:07 pm: |
|
You say you're not sure where I’m going with this? No problem, I’ll tell you...
Let me make it perfectly clear, I think you’re an antagonist, and a wise guy looking for trouble. Only this time you're barking up the wrong tree! This is not the first thread we’ve crossed paths on on this board. I had an idea where you were going with this from your first post on this thread on November, 1, 2005, and I quote:
“It doesn't bother me, but I wouldn't say that it was in everyone's best interest. For instance, most of the neighbors....”
Well, we can all see that you started off with a lie; it does bother you… Actually, it must bother you an awful lot! Each of your subsequent posts repeated your position about me and my neighbors. And, each time I tried to remind you this was not just about me and my neighbors, but about an ordinance for the whole town. When my wife and I first talked F2F with you at Bunny’s you said you were NOT opposed to B&B’s but you felt you needed to support a friend of yours who was opposed.
I told you that I understood, and that I was OK with your position on the matter.
At that point I felt it was pretty clear that we both said what we needed to on the subject, and we could just go on our own separate ways... However, you obviously have another agenda in mind and need to continue an on-line public debate with your leading questions, double talk, and trying to drive home yours and your friends position on what a bad neighbor B&B’s or I would make!
As if this wouldn’t be enough, you’ve publicly insulted me with your accusations that I’m, “playing with half truths and omissions.” And, now after haranguing me on and off for over two months, you also figured out why my neighbors hate me!
So what’s your next step McCheese? What do you plan to do or say about supporting your friends position now? You said the people who signed the petition don’t matter… Really? They didn’t sign because of me; most of them don’t even know me. They signed because they see the value of what B&B’s can mean for them and for our town.
Listen up pal, I love this town and after over 60 years here I’m not going away! I would never do anything deliberately to hurt the town, any of its residents, and especially any of my neighbors. FYI, prior to them going off on me I had a long and “well documented” record of helping these same neighbors you say hate me so much.
Check it out. I helped them build their decks, put up their fences, gave them the keys to my property to run their dogs, full use of my swimming pool, gave them vacations at my summer home in Loveladies on Long Beach Island, and even had them as our guests to our wedding here in 1997. I’ve tried everything possible to work something out with them to no avail. You say they hate me, you’re right; I believe these neighbors probably invented the word…
So, what’s next for you and me? We can both give it up, continue to bust balls, or maybe you feel this is worthy of a meeting at the Town Square? FWIW, I remember you recently saying on another thread, “I am perfectly capable of making decisions myself, just as every other adult is.” Well, it’s time for us to put up or shut up! I’ll give you the last word... |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 757
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 2:08 am: |
|
"maybe you feel this is worthy of a meeting at the Town Square?"
I am not looking for a fight, and I have no agenda. This is a town message board. People post their opinions. That is exactly what I have done. Every one of my posts has been in response to something you have posted first. I did not start this thread. I did not start another thread bashing your B&B. I did not even post on this thread for nearly a month and a half, because I said what I wanted to say and dropped it. I only posted again after we spoke in person.
"I told you that I understood, and that I was OK with your position on the matter."
I would not say that is exactly what happened. I said what I had to say, and you turned your back to me to speak with someone else, and your wife began asking me many questions, including a question along the lines of "Don't you think that your friends in the area are lying to you?" If that was not the direct quote, then the words she used carried the same exact meaning.
"You’ve publicly insulted me with your accusations"
And you have not done the same? You accused me of using “double talk” when I have tried to make myself clear in every post, and have gone back and clarified anything that might have been misunderstood. And "why not move back to recreational drugs and smoking issues, where you seem to be more knowledgeable...” well, go ahead make your innuendos. And we can’t forget “I think you’re an antagonist, and a wise guy looking for trouble.”
I am surprised that a man such as you would not just have an intelligent conversation with me about the issues that I mentioned on this board, and instead use insults and slander to try and shut me up. I have said all that I wanted to say, and asked the questions that I was curious about. And as for your demand that I put up or shut up; are we back in grammar school? Seriously, if you learn to deal with people respectfully you will be treated the same way.
|
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6491
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 8:58 am: |
|
Well. This little testosterone contest is very productive. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4630
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 12:09 pm: |
|
Thanks Greene, isn't this fun, NOT... Hopefully the end is close at hand?
“I only posted again after we spoke in person.”
This is my point McCheese, WE SPOKE IN PERSON! If you were not looking for a fight, why did you bother to post your opinion again, especially after you explained your position to me in person on the night of the 30th? You clearly had unfinished business and an agenda on the 31st, and you continue to have one now.
Posting an opinion (in your case an objection) is one thing; however, after already stating it to me in person, then trying to prove it in public debate with me over a small town message board is entirely different. IMHO, all you’re looking for is to seek further support for your agenda.
As for not starting another thread to bash me; why would you bother when you just high jacked this one to promote your argument. Listen, your insistence to drive home your agenda is clear, and it’s what I have issue with.
FWIW, by now everyone on the World Wide Web knows that, "you and your friends don’t feel that an appropriate location for a B&B would be in the middle of a group of residents that opposed it.” WE GOT IT! What's not to understand about that?
Lets get back to the point; when we spoke in person at the bar, “I told you that I understood, and that I was OK with your position on the matter." And, looking square in the eyes, that is exactly what I said to you...
You never once said or in anyway indicated there was anything more to say on the matter for the next half hour I was there. The fact is there is nothing more to say. You voiced your opinion, and I said I had no problem with it! THAT’S THE END OF STORY IN MY BOOK!!!
Now after answering all your questions, a few days of on-line public baiting and debating, voicing of our opinions, name calling, exchanging personal insults, and trying to look good and make the other person look bad, neither of our “opinions” appear to have changed since the 30th when we spoke in person… I still understand, and I’m still OK with your position to support your friends!
So, can I now go on with this thread to promote a B&B ordinance for Maplewood, or do you still want to continue on with your agenda of voicing more of your “OPINIONS” opposing the idea?
|
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 759
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 2:29 pm: |
|
My agenda, haha... my agenda to destroy all B&Bs in the tri-state area; one at a time through internet message boards. Also, I post for myself, not for "me and my friends." I have no group of people that I represent. I have said my peace, and as long as you do not continue to call me back to this thread I will be happy to leave you and your "opinions" alone.
(And what happened to giving me the last word  ) |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1654
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 4:58 pm: |
|
While ajc takes some deep breaths, really, could someone outline for me the objections to having B&B's in town? I'm not somehow implying there are no legitimate objections. I'm just having trouble thinking of many negatives, and are wondering what the big issues are on the minds of the objectors. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6508
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 6:15 pm: |
|
Reader's Digest Version (as interpreted by GT)
Most people don't object. Most people want to see some regulations that recognize that a B&B (or any business with customers coming and going) is disruptive to a residential neighborhood and provide appropriate safeguards. Everyone could be happy - places for guests to stay with minimal inconvenience (if any) to the neighbors.
The Back Story:
Art has a negative history with some of his neighbors. He has parties; they let their dogs bark. Nothing to do with the issue at hand for the Township, really, except to be a very ugly distraction.
If you cannot sleep tonight, read the entire thread and you will see that there aren't huge objections unless they focus on Art's relationship with his neighbors, which would be a non-issue if Art would leave it alone and stop posting polemics which only draw attention to those issues.
McCheese and Art are having a really obnoxious pissing match and neither of them knows how to just drop it, much less refrain from escalating it into some sort of sad Alpha Male contest.
But, maybe someone else understands it differently. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1655
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 6:22 pm: |
|
Thank you Ms. Tree.
|
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4633
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 7:49 pm: |
|
Thank God, it looks like we're both complete Greene...
Listen, sometime us Alpha Male types just have to work it out of our systems. Anyway, all's well that ends well...
Lets see now, where was I? I remember, the following web sites is where anyone can get statistics about U.S. B&B’s compiled by the Professional Association of Innkeepers International (PAII) : www.paii.org and www.njinns.com
|
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4638
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 1:10 pm: |
|
Have you checked out www.njinns.com yet?
It's a great source for alternative lodging, and beats the pants off some of those sleazy hotels and motels down the shore. Before any issues with the town, I was on the Board of Directors of this organization. Unfortunately, I was ordered to drop all advertising, web-sites, and affiliations until this matter is finally resolved.
Interestingly, we found that every year the B&B industry all over the country loses properties to private families who convert them back to private homes. History has shown prior to becoming B&B's, many of these properties were destined for demolition. Bringing them back to their original beauty and significance makes them irresistible again as homes for the rich and famous, well, the rich anyway...;-)
If you scan the different locations of the B&B's you will find many are located in resort areas. However, some of the most beautiful and romantic little get-a-ways are often the older Victorians the further north you come. North Jersey has much more to offer in the way of older Victorian homes than anywhere else in the country.
One such property in Toms River reminds me of some of the homes in Maplewood, especially several I know of in South Orange. Take a look at the "Victoria On Main" 600 Main Street, Toms River, NJ 08753, 732-818-7580. www.victoriaonmain.com Just picture yourself pulling up to the entrance of this beautiful B&B in a horse and carriage? Can you imagine, it's only been open three years, and is the first and only B&B in Toms River.
Tell the truth, is this the kind of place you wish was close by to take your significant other for a short romantic get-a-way? You know what I mean, have dinner out, get Mom to babysit the kids, right? Right!
I'm taking Libby down there as a surprise for her birthday in March. I'm booking the "Miss Megan" suite. I like the idea of only a full size bed when it’s for a romantic night out, that way she can’t get away from me…. Oh, don't worry Libby won't find out unless one of you squeal on me... She hardly ever reads my threads, and gets to nervous when I get excited about a topic, especially this topic! Enjoy... |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page