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Message |
    
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 764
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 11:40 am: | 
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JAT - Your right, I will never guess who it is. But I will guess that they got below a 700 on their SATs. |
buzzsaw
Citizen
Username: Buzzsaw
Post Number: 3495
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 12:05 pm: |
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Who is it, and can they figure this out??
 |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 11861
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 1:13 pm: |
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Libertarian, I realize you don't believe a restaurant is a public space. But wishing that were so doesn't make it so. You are incorrect. Private property that is open to anyone who chooses to enter is regulable, if that's a word, as a public space. Maybe you ought to try to get that changed in the law. Until you do, restaurants are public spaces. Like it or not, that's the way it is, so I suggest give up claiming otherwise.
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3546
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 2:26 pm: |
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It was / is Joe Cryan!!! When I get home I'll post a link to the story... |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3548
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 2:32 pm: |
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Assembly votes indoor smoking ban
Gambling areas at casinos are exempted from the bill
Tuesday, January 10, 2006
BY TOM HESTER
Star-Ledger Staff
After debating on and off for 10 years, the Assembly yesterday overwhelmingly approved legislation to ban smoking in indoor public places such as restaurants, bars, bowling alleys, private clubs, bingo halls and enclosed shopping malls.
Gov. Richard Codey plans to sign the bill before he leaves the governor's office next Tuesday, and it would take effect in 90 days.
"This is a great day for public health in New Jersey," Codey said following the vote.
Assembly members voted 64-12 with 2 abstentions, ignoring opponents' pleas that it would hurt small business owners and is an example of government tampering with individual choice.
Opponents also complained the measure is discriminatory because it exempts the gambling areas of the 13 Atlantic City casinos. They also argued the legislation is unnecessary because 67 percent of New Jersey's 22,000 restaurants are already smoke-free.
Proponents, including Codey, maintain the ban is needed to protect workers and the public from second-hand smoke.
"A family trying to enjoy a nice meal, or a worker trying to make a living, should not have to be put in harm's way to do so," Codey said. "With all of the facts we know today, we need to do whatever we can to protect our workers and patrons from being exposed to the dangers of second-hand smoke."
The Senate approved the measure 29-7 on Dec. 12. New Jersey would become the 11th state to ban smoking in indoor public places, joining, among others, New York and Delaware.
But opposition to the smoking ban may not have been snuffed out yesterday. The New Jersey Restaurant Association is considering going to court to argue the legislation is discriminatory because it does not include casino gambling areas or cigar bars and lounges, and therefore does not provide equal protection under law.
"The Restaurant Association has its attorney looking into the discrimination issue," said Barbara McConnell, director of the New Jersey Bar and Tavern Association. "If this issue goes to court, we will join. We would clearly lose a lot of business."
McConnell said she would also expect bowling alley operators to also join any litigation. Restaurant Association officials were not available for comment.
Assemblyman Joseph Cryan (D-Essex), a former restaurant operator whose brothers and sister run Cryan's restaurants in West Orange and Branchburg, was the most outspoken opponent of the legislation. He confirmed that in the Democratic caucus, he unsuccessfully proposed two amendments, one that would eliminate the casino exemption, the other more extreme, to ban smoking entirely in the state.
"It was the will of the caucus that the bill pass as is. It was a spirited and lengthy debate," he said. "I argued on behalf of small business, individual choice, and the merits of not standing up for big business."
Four Democrats and four Republicans spoke on the floor in favor of the smoking ban and one Democrat and five Republicans rose to oppose it.
"This is the most important piece of legislation I have worked on in the last 10 years," said Assemblyman Reed Gusciora (D-Mercer), a prime sponsor of the bill, S-1926. "Today we take a major step toward promoting public health in New Jersey."
The no votes were cast by nine Republicans and three Democrats, including Assemblyman Jeff Van Drew (D-Cape May), chairman of the Assembly Tourism and gaming Committee, which deals with the casinos. Two Republicans abstained.
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3549
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 2:34 pm: |
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Blowing smoke on the free market
Tuesday, January 10, 2006
Well, that ban on smoking in bars and restaurants was approved by the Legislature yesterday. The vote came despite dire predictions from the liquor lobby that a ban on smoking will mean that smokers will stop going to bars.
This is unlikely to happen, but I sure wish it would. After all, who wants to drink with a bunch of Democrats? They seem to be the only people who smoke cigarettes these days. As for Republicans, I know quite a few who smoke the occasional cigar, but I can't name more than a handful who smoke cigarettes. Republicans aren't stupid. Most of my Republican friends are just as glad as I am that 90 days from Sunday, when acting Gov. Richard Codey plans to sign the bill, they will be able to enjoy a cold beer without getting a snootful of smoke.
In my experience, the main group of Republicans opposing this ban consists of elected officials. Unlike the great mass of Republican voters, elected officials represent a party that sometimes seems like little more than the political arm of the tobacco industry.
When it comes to the issue of secondhand smoke, party activists have adopted what can only be called a "big lie" approach. They argue, for example, that any allegation that secondhand smoke is harmful is an example of "junk science." Nonsense. Mainstream medical research documents the risk in elaborate detail.
Another whopper is the argument that the ban represents some sort of unprecedented attack on the right to do as one wishes on private property. Let us examine this claim as regards the New Jersey Legislature. This is a body that endorses, with no dissent from Republicans, laws that permit the cops to break into your bedroom and haul you off in chains if you happen to be smoking marijuana. Yet we are somehow supposed to believe that this same body is overreaching its authority when it passes a law imposing a small fine for using tobacco in places where others do not wish to inhale it.
You'd have to be a dimwit to believe that one. And you'd have to be a positive moron to believe another argument against banning smoking in New Jersey bars -- the one that we should let the "free market" decide which bars restrict smoking. I for one would support that argument were it not put forward by the very same Legislature that is engaged in a perennial conspiracy with the liquor lobby to extinguish all competition in the sale of alcoholic beverages.
On the very day the smoking ban sailed through the Assembly, for example, the booze barons were busy strangling two bills that would have loosened their monopoly by a tiny amount. One bill, sponsored by Assemblyman John McKeon, a Democrat from West Orange, would have permitted towns to sell any excess liquor licenses to adjacent municipalities. Such a bill would have no effect on the total number of licenses, which has been capped for a half-century, yet the liquor lobby is fighting it vociferously. I asked McKeon what would happen if any legislator proposed a true free market in liquor licenses, one in which every New Jersey resident had an equal right to sell liquor on the open market.
"That would be World War III," McKeon replied.
Meanwhile, over in the Senate, the liquor interests were busy deep-sixing another measure. Sen. Ray Lesniak, a Democrat from Elizabeth, had proposed a bill that would permit developers of resort complexes to have the licenses that are necessary to compete in the interstate market for tourism. The most immediate beneficiary would be Intrawest, a company that is investing more than $250 million in upgrading the Mountain Creek ski complex in Vernon Township.
Such a project would have no negative impact on the current tavern owners in Vernon Township and would probably help them. Yet they oppose it on the theory that Intrawest should buy their licenses and make them multimillionaires. So Lesniak pulled the bill yesterday. He said he expects to reintroduce it in some form next term, perhaps followed by a more comprehensive measure to free up the market slightly.
Good luck on that. Meanwhile, back in the Assembly, the most vociferous opponent of the smoking bill was none other than Assemblyman Joe Cryan, a Democrat from Union, whose name you might recognize by the famed taverns of the same name owned by his family.
Cryan was complaining that the typical bar owner would find that the law "would take away his right to run his business the way he wants."
In other words, after taking away the right of everyone else in the state to run a bar, the typical bar owner wants to complain that it is his rights that are being violated.
All I can say is, it's a good thing these guys spend most of their time talking to people who are drunk. Because this sure sounds funny when you're sober.
Paul Mulshine is a Star-Ledger columnist. He may be reached at pmulshine@starledger.com.
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steel
Citizen
Username: Steel
Post Number: 939
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 3:12 pm: |
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There is also this excerpt below about Joe Cryan's position from the NYTIMES, (which I also posted in the soapbox -"no-smoking section")
-He has some very odd perspectives including some fanciful idea that New Yorkers have been coming all the way over here to smoke in a bar.
-He also seems to oddly presume, (or wish us to believe) that the people who presently smoke in bars etc would now suddenly stop buying cigarettes and thus deprive the state of tax revenue.
-The final quote seems to sum up his priorities. -certainly doesn't appear to have anything to do with smoker's civil liberties.
_____________________________
"From the NYTIMES:
"Some opponents of the ban sought to weaken its chances by arguing that it should apply to the casinos.
Assemblyman Joseph Cryan, a Democrat who represents Union County and whose family owns Cryan's Pub in South Orange, was one of those leading an effort to weaken the bill's chances by making it stronger. He had said he was considering offering an amendment that would have subjected casinos to the smoking ban, but it never materialized on Monday when the ban was presented for a vote in the Assembly.
Instead, Mr. Cryan took the floor to say why he would not support the measure. "It sticks to my craw to no end that the casino exemption is there," he said.
Mr. Cryan said imposing the ban would eliminate more than 20,000 cigarette sales locations in bars and restaurants, costing the state some of the $540 million generated by the cigarette tax.
He also said that New Jersey was giving up a competitive edge it had held among smokers since similar bans had been enacted in New York. "It's just good business sense, SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE ENCOURAGING not discouraging," Mr. Cryan said. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2484
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 5:43 pm: |
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a restaurant or a bar is not a public space! it is a privately owned business that reserves the right not to serve people. saying they are a public space is the same as saying your home is a public space. you let people in but reserve and use the right to keep some people out.
Libertarian: You lost that argument with the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
But to beat a dead horse, if your theory is correct, why does a bar need a license from the State to serve alcoholic beverages? I don't need a license to serve you a beer at my house. |
I'm Only Sleeping
Citizen
Username: Imonlysleeping
Post Number: 110
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 6:01 pm: |
|
Libertarian realized his argument is silly and fled this thread many hours ago. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3550
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 7:46 pm: |
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As much as I'm in favor of the smoking ban I do hope the bars try to bring a lawsuit against the state for discrimination. Then the State will be forced to include the casinos.
And while I'm all for the ban including organizations such as the Elks, Jaycees, Knights, etc., I'm not sure where I stand on someone who rents a facility for a private party, such as a wedding, not being able to allow smoking (if it's OK with the facility).
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The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 9:16 am: |
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Libertarian realized his argument is silly and fled this thread many hours ago.
that would make you oh so brave for saying that.
i left this thread because it was like trying to teach french to the deaf. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8362
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 11:04 am: |
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The hearing impaired can learn French.
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3567
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 1:59 pm: |
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Libbie-
Glad you realize how we all feel about you being able to see the other point of view. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 2:46 pm: |
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The hearing impaired can learn French.
but have you ever tried to teach it to them. very trying. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3569
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
|
Another that mentions Joe Cryan...
Blowing smoke on the free market
Tuesday, January 10, 2006
Well, that ban on smoking in bars and restaurants was approved by the Legislature yesterday. The vote came despite dire predictions from the liquor lobby that a ban on smoking will mean that smokers will stop going to bars.
This is unlikely to happen, but I sure wish it would. After all, who wants to drink with a bunch of Democrats? They seem to be the only people who smoke cigarettes these days. As for Republicans, I know quite a few who smoke the occasional cigar, but I can't name more than a handful who smoke cigarettes. Republicans aren't stupid. Most of my Republican friends are just as glad as I am that 90 days from Sunday, when acting Gov. Richard Codey plans to sign the bill, they will be able to enjoy a cold beer without getting a snootful of smoke.
In my experience, the main group of Republicans opposing this ban consists of elected officials. Unlike the great mass of Republican voters, elected officials represent a party that sometimes seems like little more than the political arm of the tobacco industry.
When it comes to the issue of secondhand smoke, party activists have adopted what can only be called a "big lie" approach. They argue, for example, that any allegation that secondhand smoke is harmful is an example of "junk science." Nonsense. Mainstream medical research documents the risk in elaborate detail.
Another whopper is the argument that the ban represents some sort of unprecedented attack on the right to do as one wishes on private property. Let us examine this claim as regards the New Jersey Legislature. This is a body that endorses, with no dissent from Republicans, laws that permit the cops to break into your bedroom and haul you off in chains if you happen to be smoking marijuana. Yet we are somehow supposed to believe that this same body is overreaching its authority when it passes a law imposing a small fine for using tobacco in places where others do not wish to inhale it.
You'd have to be a dimwit to believe that one. And you'd have to be a positive moron to believe another argument against banning smoking in New Jersey bars -- the one that we should let the "free market" decide which bars restrict smoking. I for one would support that argument were it not put forward by the very same Legislature that is engaged in a perennial conspiracy with the liquor lobby to extinguish all competition in the sale of alcoholic beverages.
On the very day the smoking ban sailed through the Assembly, for example, the booze barons were busy strangling two bills that would have loosened their monopoly by a tiny amount. One bill, sponsored by Assemblyman John McKeon, a Democrat from West Orange, would have permitted towns to sell any excess liquor licenses to adjacent municipalities. Such a bill would have no effect on the total number of licenses, which has been capped for a half-century, yet the liquor lobby is fighting it vociferously. I asked McKeon what would happen if any legislator proposed a true free market in liquor licenses, one in which every New Jersey resident had an equal right to sell liquor on the open market.
"That would be World War III," McKeon replied.
Meanwhile, over in the Senate, the liquor interests were busy deep-sixing another measure. Sen. Ray Lesniak, a Democrat from Elizabeth, had proposed a bill that would permit developers of resort complexes to have the licenses that are necessary to compete in the interstate market for tourism. The most immediate beneficiary would be Intrawest, a company that is investing more than $250 million in upgrading the Mountain Creek ski complex in Vernon Township.
Such a project would have no negative impact on the current tavern owners in Vernon Township and would probably help them. Yet they oppose it on the theory that Intrawest should buy their licenses and make them multimillionaires. So Lesniak pulled the bill yesterday. He said he expects to reintroduce it in some form next term, perhaps followed by a more comprehensive measure to free up the market slightly.
Good luck on that. Meanwhile, back in the Assembly, the most vociferous opponent of the smoking bill was none other than Assemblyman Joe Cryan, a Democrat from Union, whose name you might recognize by the famed taverns of the same name owned by his family.
Cryan was complaining that the typical bar owner would find that the law "would take away his right to run his business the way he wants."
In other words, after taking away the right of everyone else in the state to run a bar, the typical bar owner wants to complain that it is his rights that are being violated.
All I can say is, it's a good thing these guys spend most of their time talking to people who are drunk. Because this sure sounds funny when you're sober.
Paul Mulshine is a Star-Ledger columnist. He may be reached at pmulshine@starledger.com.
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The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 4:57 pm: |
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so his point is that so many larger rights have been restricted that this little one shouldnt be complained about.
what a sad and terrible point of view.
he actually perfectly describes the little by little, piece by piece erosion of rights that i have been talking about. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3570
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 6:28 pm: |
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It's started already!
Bowling group aims to stop smoking ban
Wednesday, January 11, 2006
BY TOM HESTER
Star-Ledger Staff
Hoping to block a ban on smoking in public places, an organization of bowling alley operators went to court yesterday claiming Gov. Richard Codey has no authority to sign it into law.
Why? Because, the lawsuit contends, Codey is not the governor.
The Bowling Proprietors of New Jersey are asking a Superior Court judge in Trenton to rule that Codey's term as governor ended yesterday when the 211th Legislature was replaced by the 212th. Until Gov.-elect Jon Corzine is sworn in next Tuesday, the lawsuit claims, Attorney General Peter Harvey is the acting governor.
Not so, said Harvey's office: Because Codey was re-elected Senate president yesterday, he remains governor until his elected replacement takes office.
But Thomas Martino, bowling association vice president and owner of Majestic Lanes in Woodbridge, thinks his group has a case. "I'm not in the habit of filing frivolous lawsuits," he said.
Codey plans to sign the smoking ban Sunday in West Orange. It would take effect 90 days later.
The 22,000-member New Jersey Restaurant Association announced yesterday it will also challenge the ban in court. It plans to file a lawsuit in federal court within 90 days, arguing the smoking ban is discriminatory because it covers most indoor public places but exempts cigar bars and the gambling areas of Atlantic City's 13 casinos.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-0/113696047470580.xml&coll=1 |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 6:30 pm: |
|
go bowlers! fight for liberty! |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1284
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 6:32 pm: |
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The 22,000-member New Jersey Restaurant Association announced yesterday it will also challenge the ban in court.
but you all said that the restaurant owners want the bill to pass!
it doesnt make sense...........unless.....hmm......unless you were making it up and confusing opinion with fact......hmmmm........nah! couldnt be so! |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3572
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 6:32 pm: |
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Sorry Libby. All they are going to succeed in doing is make a stronger reason and easier fight to make the casinos to be smoke free. |
jamie
Citizen
Username: Jamie
Post Number: 386
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 6:46 pm: |
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"go bowlers! fight for liberty!"
Liberty to endanger the health of others that is. 
90 days won't be here soon enough. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 6:50 pm: |
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the rapture wont be here soon enough |
Fabulouswalls
Citizen
Username: Fabulouswalls
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 7:23 pm: |
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Not one of Blondie's best songs. Heh heh. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3577
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 7:24 pm: |
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Libby
I think you might have been smoking too much of that funny stuff. I NEVER said ALL. I said some of the owners I know. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1312
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 11:57 am: |
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nice backpedal. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3600
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 2:57 pm: |
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libby old dude. Show me the link where I said ALL those who own restaurants were for the bill... You gotta lay off those funny things you smoke...
Counting the days.... |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1317
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 3:01 pm: |
|
it was absolutely what you implied. you made no qualification when using it as a foundation for your argument on why the smoking bill was a good thing. what you just did was a blatant backpedal.
also to imply that i do drugs is a juvenile attempt to disguise the fact that you misrepresented yourself earlier.
your credibility just hit zero. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3602
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 3:24 pm: |
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Whatever... You hit zero a long time ago. Get use to it. The ban is a reality. If you don't like it you can always move to another state. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1325
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 3:28 pm: |
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by saying." whatever" rather than defending yourself is proof enough that you have been caught misrepresenting yourself.
again, your credibility just hit rock bottom. |
mickey
Citizen
Username: Mickey
Post Number: 377
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 5:21 pm: |
|
Lib,
We won! You lost! Get over it.... whatever! |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3608
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 5:28 pm: |
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Yawn, Boring, as Straw would say.
I'm not going to continue to argue with you. As Micky said 'We won (non smokers)...' If you don't like it you can always move to a state that allows you to smoke where and when ever you want. Chances are though, within the next few years this will turn into a Nation wide ban... |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1334
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 5:58 pm: |
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very adult debate from the both of you.
at least i dont misrepresent myself as the basis for my arguments and then backpedal when caught.
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3626
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 7:45 pm: |
|
More From Today's Sunbeam | Subscribe To Today's Sunbeam
Smoking ban 'all about the money'
Sunday, January 15, 2006
By TRISH GRABER
Staff Writer
SALEM -- Local bar and restaurant managers don't plan on rallying against the indoor smoking ban at the Statehouse, they just wish that what goes for one, goes for all.
A bill passed by the legislature Monday will prohibit smoking in bars, restaurants and other indoor places beginning in mid-April -- casino floors are excluded.
Gov. Richard Codey is expected to sign the smoking-ban law in effect on Sunday.
Local bar and restaurant personnel don't think their business will take a huge hit, but oppose what they call favoritism toward the money-moguls in Atlantic City.
"It's all about the money," said J.R. Gemberling, owner of the Corner Bar in Pilesgrove. "The little guy gets hurt."
Early this week, customers at The Corner Bar lingered around the bar smoking freely. Some joked the ban will improve smokers' health, and may even help smokers break the habit.
But Gemberling thinks customers will feel the affects in April.
"I think it's unfair," Gemberling said. "I don't think people will stay as long, or enjoy themselves as much."
Kimmy Vanderslice, manager of Holy Smokes in Pennsville, called the casino exemption suspicious, but said she doubts it will make a financial dent locally.
"States around us have (smoking bans)," Vanderslice said. "And I don't recall anyone going out of business."
Jeff Cook, manager of J.G. Cook's Riverview Inn in Pennsville, said the ban will mainly impact Atlantic City establishments who will compete with smoking-permitted casinos next door.
Locally, he doesn't think it will make a large financial impact on business.
"The people who won't come out," he said, "will be offset by the people who haven't been coming out because of the smoke."
Cook doesn't agree with the ban, but believes his restaurant will make it through the transition.
"There's a lot of other states that have done it," he said. "And they've gotten through it."
"I just wish it was fair -- that's the bottom line."
NINETY DAYS AND COUNTING!!! |
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