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Message |
    
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 12:16 pm: | 
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This morning, my neighbor directly in the rear of me stopped by, to apologize for their decision to install a fence in the near future. The purpose of the fence is to keep the deer off his property, so that his wife could plant flowers without having the deer eat them.
He really feels bad about this, because we have talked about how the rear of our houses and nearby houses looks like a park, and we love the open feeling.
I am really angry, not at him, because I've thought of putting up a fence also, for the same reason. I'm angry at the VP and BOT who refuse to do anything about the deer.
I'm also angry at the "open spacers" who are the first to decry the loss of any open space, but who also are very active in lobbying the BOT to not do anything about the deer. It's sheer hypocrisy.
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Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 227
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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I am the first to condemn many of the decisions or non-decisions made by the VP and BOT - but is controlling New Jersey's or Essex County's deer population their responsibilty? Most of the deer come out of the South Mountain Reservation, if not all. Is it the County or the town who must control the ever-growing deer population? |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1345
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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Josh - The deer problem has been discussed numerous times in the past. And yes, it is a county problem. But the county plays the game that it can't do anything unless all the contiguous towns agree, and South Orange has been quite content with this.
Residents have in fact appeared before the BOT and requested that nothing be done. It's been easier for the BOT to allow this situation to remain without doing anything.
About once a year this subject is discussed on this board, or someone appears before the BOT complaining about the problem, and the VP says a goup will be formed to "study" the problem. Then it just dies until someone raises again.
We can get into a whole discussion about the fact that the county doesn't want to pay for it, and so on, but I had suggested in the past that South Orange meet with the other towns and come up with a plan. Then approach the county.
Nothing is ever done. We're losing open space as well as tens of thousands of dollars in landscaping.
I'm not going to post on this anymore, because we'll get into the same discssions that have occurred in the past. The bottom line is that it's just a lot easier for the BOT not to do anything.
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Nagim
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 274
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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I AGREE! The same old story, where is our represetntation on anything? It's all smoke and mirrors and I for one am sick of it. I can't get anything done even when I want to.
My buddy, Joe D., a real cowboy, is to blame too. He's promised to don a cowboy outfit and lasso a couple of deer for a photo op last year. I told him I'd be ready to give him a key to the village on top of a camel for a real nice photo shoot. But, as you know, we talk the good talk but walk - not a chance.
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 347
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 3:50 pm: |
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None of the trustees will take on the issue. On one occassion, Jennings even said she liked her kids to see the deer in her yard. There is finger pointing between the county, the state and the towns. Only a few towns have had the backbone to try to address the problem. One was Milburn which I believe has a hunt.
It is not an easy problem, and the town reps should engage the state and county on this, and come up with some kind of plan. We soon stand to lose the reason many of us moved to the suburbs.
One site I found that explains the complexity of the issue is:
http://aesop.rutgers.edu/~agecon/deer/
As for the "solution" that Calabrese loves to tout as the one he favors (but does nothing about), namely the herding and relocating, you will see if you read at this site, that this is not the humane solution many think. Most relocated animals die. Besides, I don't even think they (the County, I guess) went forward with this idea.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3249
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 5:17 pm: |
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You can blame the Trustees for our "people problem" caused by paving every square inch of available land, but the deer were here long before us.
I actually enjoy looking out into my yard & seeing deer walking through the yard. I've learned to plant "deer-resistant" flowers & plants and adapt to the environment we live in.
I think complaining that the deer limits the flowers & plants you can grow is like people in Arizona complaining they can only grow cacti due to all the sand.
We need to learn to deal with the habitat we choose to live in. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1397
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 5:52 pm: |
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I'm more concerned, with all due respect, to the horrendous traffic and traffic patterns on South Orange Avenue, morning, noon, and night.
And, yes, the deer do eat the plants in our garden here (but they also do it at our place in Vermont). I can replace plants. I can't easily replace open space once it's lost. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 348
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 6:54 pm: |
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MHD-
Actually, I am not sure the deer were here long before us. But if they were, so were their natural predators. Would you also enjoy peppering the town with some coyote and foxes or whatever their predators are. Right now, the only predator is the automobile, or they die of starvation. I think its myopic to think its fine as is.
Deer will eat just about anything, with rare exception. If you are happy with a completely defoliated environment, I guess that's your right. But I actually enjoy the outside.
I have often thought that when deer finally invade the golf courses and make playing golf impossible, then politicans would act, cynic that I am. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3251
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 6:59 pm: |
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jayjay,
LOL your comment about golf courses.
Actually, if we could train the deer to eat asbestos, we could solve everyone's problems if we could relocate the deer downtown, have them FEED (on asbestos) at the Shop Rite site and DRINK (all the excessive water) at the Beifus site.  |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 807
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 7:05 pm: |
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Innisowen - The town fixed the problems with traffic on South Orange Ave a few years ago. They lowered the speed limit and turned two lanes into one. Oh wait, did I say fixed... |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1346
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 7:18 pm: |
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Within the past year, the Audubon Society has said we are at "ground zero" where deforestation by deer is concerned. National Wildlife magazine has voiced similar concerns. Here's an editorial from Audubon Magazine.
http://magazine.audubon.org/editorial/editorial0507.html |
Nagim
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 275
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 7:34 pm: |
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Maybe we'll have M.R. write on his blog on how he's aware and concerned about the deer problem. More lip service, that's all we can ever expect. I continue to have an ability to forsee future votes. I believe you'll see Mary Theourx appointed by vote to the parking authority. Let's not forget the close relationship and writing etiquette in the News Record last election. I know the authorship of the scum that appeared in writing. Was I surprised, Hah....I keep myself shielded to hide and willing to place others in servitude.
I am Nagim.....ruler of the absurd.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3252
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 9:08 pm: |
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Just curious...are you the same as Sayid Nagim? if so, you have a conflict with the picture on your account. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 730
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 9:33 pm: |
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Why did you call this "Loss of open space" when it's really about deer? I don't see anything here about "Loss of open space" other than some sort of random swing at "open spacers" as somehow being the ones responsible for deer overpopulation in the area, and, by extension, your neighbor's decision to install a fence.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:09 pm: |
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argon - The building of fences to protect one's landscaping, etc. is indeed a loss of open space. There has been a proliferation of fences being built in recent years for this reason. And yes, it is about the deer.
My "random swing" at open spacers wasn't really random. I know some of these people personally and expected some type of backlash. As a matter of fact, I had communicated with a trustee candidate during the election, expressing my disappointment with his response during the debate. In response to a question from the audience about what the candidates would do about the deer problem, he said he would study the problem.
I contacted him and said I was disappointed with his response, and said basically the same thing as I said in my original post.
As a matter of fact, I even raised the point at a coffee when Patrick Joyce was running for BOT. I consider Patrick a friend, but I don't agree with his position on the deer either.
If my post was abrasive, I make no apologies. I have given up trying to do anything about the deer, since it is useless. But I had to vent.
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peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1727
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:43 pm: |
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Spitz --
agree with you-- the open expanse of grass across the backyards is really nice. that said, neighbors to one side have fenced in (both b/c of children and their dog). BUT it also keeps the deer out -- and their flowers have been wonderful the past couple of years (while mine eventually get eaten).
I am no fan of fences -- from an aesthetic point of view. However, they can be practical.
Pete |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 349
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:57 pm: |
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There was a post several months ago, with some bemoaning the fate of a deer who had wandered into downtown South Orange. With the top of the hill substantially defoliated, and with Pulte having evicted them from the quarry, they will inevitably roam to greener pastures. Heck, Beifus and Shop Rite and Saiyd all provide open spaces where they can live. Hey, maybe the town should acquire these parcels as open land. Oh, wait, I forgot the town did buy one of them (Shop Rite) but then sold it to that cracker jack developer...but I digress.... |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1348
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:16 pm: |
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In honor of the Audubon Society, we watched "March of the Penguins" on video this evening. Incredible. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1401
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:52 pm: |
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There are some who would say, as did the poet, "good fences make good neighbors." |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2129
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 1:56 pm: |
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Perfect hypocrisy:
I moved to the suburbs to be in the “country”. How do I get rid of nature?
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1349
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 3:25 pm: |
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Innis - Better still, "good neighbors make good neighbors."
I'm lucky enough to have wonderful neighbors. Our block has a zillion kids, and so far, no fences have been put up on our stretch of landcape. I think the families enjoy the openess as much as I do and like the fact that their children have one big playard and can wander from yard to yard.
It's nice for me since my grandchildren can wander over to the jungle gyms of either side of me.
I was talking to my neighbor and his wife this morning about the deer problem, and the fact that the Village is not going to do anything about it. We talked about how much devastation has taken place in our area, and the fact that you see very few flowers in our area in the summer. Most people have just given up. And this is an area (like South Orange in general) where people really enjoy and take care of their properties. But you can drive around in the summer and see the devastation, and not that many flowers.
btw: Our daffodills are coming up.
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 352
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 7:44 pm: |
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Spitz-
I have often thought that an educational walk around the neighborhood would open the eyes of many residents to the level of destruction that has occurred. Quantifying the damage with photographs and finanacial estimates, I thought might also be a good idea. This would take a lot of effort, and I fear would still fall on deaf BOT's ears. BTW, I would love to see what their properties look like. That may speak volumes.
Has anyone tried to plant a small tree? Once the big ones go, that's it. The small ones get eaten. Forget annuals, most perennials, vegetable gardens. Traditional foundation plants such as taxus yews are bare twigs where owners still have left them. Arbor vitae from the height of a deer's head to the ground are barren and distorted. Azaela and rhododendron flowers and even leaves are eaten. The sharp edged holly leaves and thorny roses get eaten. They still tend to avoid ornamental grasses, andromeda and some junipers, but that makes for a very boring landscape. The park-like nature of South Orange, with wonderful older plantings is fast becoming unrecognizable. And that's as important an issue as McMansions are to retaining the value and character of the place. So much for my Sunday sermon. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1350
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 8:04 pm: |
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jay - That was one of your better sermons. You're not a novice when it comes to landscaping.
MHD - I think I know who did your landscaping, since you mentioned it once (although you were upset with him later on about something else, as I recall).
If it's who I think it is, he's been my landscaper for many years. He's even asked me if I knew any deer-resistant plants since he was looking for some variety. And some of the plants which were supposed to be deer resistant, e,g, PJM Rhodedenron, were devoured by the deer. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3253
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 8:30 pm: |
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spitz,
We HAVE planted some Japanese Holly (Ilex Helleri), boxwoods and some rhododentron that have been completely deer resistant. Sure, I'd love to have tulips and a wider variety of plants, but not at the expense (financially or morally) of killing the deer for it.
The majority of our landscaping has been here since before we lived here. We did use Anthony's Landscaping for some work to level the ground for a swingset. He did good work, but when his work resulted in water problems elsewhere, he wouldn't stand behind his work. So, I would never use him again or recommend him.
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Meandtheboys
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 2719
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 8:29 am: |
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Seems to me deer could easily hop a fence if they were so inclined.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1352
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 8:51 am: |
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Me - Sometimes they do. And sometimes they can't figure how to get out.
I'm actually surprised that one of the conservation groups that is involved with So. Mountain Reservation hasn't raised a concern that all of the undergrowth in the reservation has been destroyed. This will have a dramatic effect in the decades ahead. And it's because of the fact that after most of the undergrowth has been destroyed in the reservation that the deer then look for vegetation in the residential areas surrounding the reservation.
Me - I know you're a photographer. If you've walked around the reservation, you'll notice the complete lack of undergrowth. |
talk-it-up
Citizen
Username: Talkitup
Post Number: 200
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 2:36 pm: |
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Fences??
Don't waste your money. Lost cause.
We have a fence around the property. Do you have any idea how high a deer can jump? This is done with very little effort. It is amazing!
Don't waste your money. Enjoy the open space. |
dgm
Citizen
Username: Dgm
Post Number: 282
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 3:33 pm: |
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Deer Overpopulation = Lyme Disease |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10380
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 3:38 pm: |
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Deer, even the sickly, half starved ones around here, have no problem with a four foot fence. We watch them go over four footers in our yard all the time. |
Meandtheboys
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 2743
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:40 am: |
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Spitz, wow I'm flattered that you know my work! And I guess I have noticed the loss of undergrowth in the reservation, just not on a concious level--so now that you mention it..... |
Jersey Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 51
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
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When I lived in West Orange (where this same issue exists) I got a questionaire about deer population control. I voted and submitted it in the no-postage necessary envelope. As I remember, the choices were:
1.Capturing and spaying or neutering then re-releasing.
2.Hunting them.
3.Doing nothing.
I voted for #1, then never heard anything more about it. Anyone? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2511
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:19 pm: |
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Jersey Boy: There was a lot of debate about # 1 (which was the preferred choice for most) but the county claims they do not have the funds. They want the towns bordering the reservation to pay by sharing equally ( not based on population or anything - each town pay by the total cost divided by the number of towns). The county was not going to put up one cent.
I sent back a letter on my own saying I felt it would be fair if we based it on population and the county pick up 50%. I never got a response other than a form letter.
As has been pointed out, the BOT as a whole has not done anything but then again, there seem to be a host of opinions on this subject but in my mind, only the county can really do anything since it is their land and they have a lot more money.
I would never be ok with a hunt - I think this area is just too populated to insure a reasonable level of safety.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1357
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:31 pm: |
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And last year a resident bribed the BOT with cookies, in public yet, not to do anything. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8465
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
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Let's import more coyotes. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1358
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 3:04 pm: |
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Excellent! An idea whose time has come. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 359
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 3:38 pm: |
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Thinning the herd is the only real solution. I don't know how you do that in a populated area, but Millburn seems to have figured it out. South Orange officials could work with them if they wanted to. And something must be going on in Livingston as I have seen many deer carcasses on many occassions on the road that intersects South Orange Ave by the Exxon station.
I don't know what it will take to get some action on this.
Hey, what about putting deer fencing around the perimeter of the reservation? Then the deer could have their place, and we ours. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3276
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |
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jayjay,
You better get used to the deer...they are part of our "new demographic". |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 2949
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:11 pm: |
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Town stirs debate on plan to thin deer herd
Millburn looks at 'net and bolt' method, called cruel by some, fast and safe by others
Wednesday, January 25, 2006
BY BRIAN T. MURRAY
Star-Ledger Staff
Troubled by an ever-growing deer population, Millburn Township is pondering whether to become the second New Jersey town to turn to the "net and bolt," a lethal control method guaranteed to ignite protests as well as eliminate whitetails.
It was five years ago that Princeton became the first municipality to net groups of deer and kill them with a bolt device similar to those used in slaughterhouses. Animal rights groups continue to lambaste the practice as cruel and unnecessarily stressful for the whitetails, while proponents praise it as a safe, fast and efficient way to get rid of deer in heavily developed areas where shooting them may be unfeasible.
"We knew it was controversial ... but we have never been afraid of taking on the issue," Millburn Committeeman Thomas McDermott said. "We became one of the first municipalities to adopt a deer management program when our residents expressed concern about the deer, and this was done in response to those same concerns. There are not many alternatives."
On Nov. 29, the five-member committee approved a plan to enlist net and bolt to trim deer herds living in pockets of woodland between homes. Officials are working out the details of a potential agreement with contractor White Buffalo of Connecticut.
The committee is hoping to see something by Feb. 7, noting that the proposal must be approved by the state Division of Fish and Wildlife and the state Fish and Game Council, which can take a couple of months.
"It's now in our attorney's hands, and we really need to look at the terms of the contract. We also have to see if White Buffalo can operate under the terms," said Mayor Dan Baer, who also sits on the committee.
The township needs to identify target areas; assess the costs, the liability and safety concerns, and decide whether the property owners or the township should finance the effort.
But the committee also is getting pressure from animal rights groups, which want to kill the plan plus sharpshooting efforts that have been used for five years.
"It is the worst of the worst. It's the most heinous and an imprecise method. Netted deer panic and writhe to get out of the nets, and you have people trying to kill them with bolt guns used in slaughterhouses on still animals with their heads in a vice. On wildlife, it takes a number of tries," said Patricia Porter of HALT or Humane Alternatives, a local animal rights group.
In a Jan. 8 letter calling on Millburn residents to oppose the plan, HALT included a DVD of what it purports to be animals writhing under a net used in a 1995 Ohio research program. Activists also issued an Internet notice reminding Baer that opponents of lethal deer control supported the election of the mayor in 2004 and two other officials who won seats in November to give the Democrats a majority on the committee.
But Baer said people on both sides of the debate supported the Democrats.
"We have a tough situation here with pockets of deer that are very close to residential uses and we really do have to take care of the problem," Baer explained.
In Princeton, White Buffalo has employed sharpshooting and birth- control testing, as well as the net and bolt method. About 323 deer were killed between 2001 and 2004 using net and bolt, and White Buffalo head Anthony DiNicola defends the program.
"I think the strategy in opposing this is that, if you lie enough and lie long enough, somebody will believe you. The truth is, the animals are killed instantly, with one application, not many. If it didn't work, I wouldn't be doing it," said DiNicola, a wildlife biologist.
The nets, ranging from 40 to 60 square feet, are suspended 8 feet high on five poles, resembling a party tent, and the deer are lured in with bait. The nets then are triggered by remote control to drop and four White Buffalo employees, each carrying two bolt-guns, move on the deer.
The bolt, which is about 4 inches long and a half-inch in diameter, never leaves the gun. It is thrust forward into the head of the deer when a primer is triggered, and must be reset for a second shot.
"The issue is the deer becoming stressed under the net. But the deer suffer much more stress in birth-control programs -- lying under a net waiting to be sedated, waiting for the sedation to take effect and then being vaccinated. It's hair-splitting," DiNicola said.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8470
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:20 pm: |
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Why rely on clumsy humans with firearms or mangy coyote to thin the heard? Let's introduce some wolves.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1215
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:32 pm: |
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Bingo, Dave. A small pack of 6-8 with a breeding pair could cull that herd in about 2years. And aren't those wolf cubs just the cutest... |
Meandtheboys
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 2763
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:38 pm: |
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Adorable.
And the same folks who have a problem with the deer eating their shrubbery are going to love it when the wolf population skyrockets and they start preying on their pets!  |
Jersey Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 55
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:44 pm: |
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Oh man, that net and bolt method's never going to fly here. I do like the "Party Tent" imagery, though.
Spitz, you started this. What do you think about the net and bolt? Better than the fence? Worth it to reclaim the open space? I had no idea what crappy choices there are: Lyme Disease and ruined plantlife vs. slaughter.
Uh, can I have another choice, please?
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1359
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:51 pm: |
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Trap and transfer. Best compromise, but also the most expensive. That's why I had suggested the towns contiguous to the reservation get on the same page and then go to the county with their proposal.
Edited to add: That's the reason the deer paddock was built in the reservation several years ago for $300,000. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 6:11 pm: |
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Because Jersey Boy is such a great guy, I won't reprint the editorial that appeared in today's Star Ledger. |
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