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bets
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 22680
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 11:09 pm: | 
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During public remonstrances, an attractive gent asked after the progress of the Village Market. He specifically asked whether the condemnation of that last bit of land had been acquired.
The general answer: 40 days.
Is that scary to anyone else but me? |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3257
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 11:47 pm: |
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For those of you playing along at home, this was a continuation of the issue raised by a lovely lady 3 months ago in the "Village Land Grab" thread:
http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=467083#POST4670 83
Certainly if all properties are STILL not under control, how can any prediction of an opening date for the Market be given by anyone? |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1733
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 9:20 am: |
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That "gent" did a great job last night ! THANK YOU -- you kept your cool, were clear, on point, and respectful.
OK -- so the "negotiations" ongoing since at least 10/24/05 to acquire the easement(s) failed.
So I heard last night the village was moving to condemnation or had hired/consulted an attorney to do so. Clearly, still some sort of "secret".
If you were the bank granting the construction loan -- would you disburse funds knowing that there are easement issues??
/p |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 847
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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Not sure if this was said before, but I find the 40 days thing such a random number...and it makes me think of 40 days/40 nights/biblical stuff...wouldn't it be more normal to give a date? |
bets
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 22685
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:28 am: |
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That's exactly what I thought of. I actually checked my calendar to see when Easter falls this year.
They can give dates all they want but are incapable of delivering. Be glad you live in Maplewood (you do, still, correct?) |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 850
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 12:05 pm: |
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nope, Bets, we're in SO now...have not been here long, but we sure saw that things happen a bit differently when getting permits etc...oy |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3263
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 6:02 pm: |
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I just re-watched some of the meeting and noticed that John Gross said there has been "much activity" over the past couple weeks and they are "removing certain things" from the building.
What "certain things" are they removing? |
bets
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 22692
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:57 pm: |
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doula - welcome to South Orange. As you can see, I have a love/hate relationship. Love my hometown/hate what the current powers-that-be have allowed to happen.
MHD, I was wondering about that as well. It looked pretty gutted when they had the front door open and tried to entice protesters in for a presentation during the "Milk March on South Orange" of about 18 months ago. More diverse "smoke and mirrors" from the Main Man at village hall. |
campbell29
Citizen
Username: Campbell29
Post Number: 334
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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Perhaps they are removing the chairs and things they stuffed in there during the last election to make it look like construction was underway. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3270
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 1:38 pm: |
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Mark,
Do you have any idea what "certain things" they are removing?
I just drove by the site and saw NO activity at all. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2510
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:12 pm: |
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More asbestos was found at the triangle building on Vose. Developer is responsible for the removal.
(There is a sign on Vose ave near the fence on the side of the building about the asbestos).
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 358
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:20 pm: |
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Isn't it likely that there will be asbestos in the old ShopRite building too, which is not supposed to be torn down? Then what? (BTW, was that ever tested by the developer?)
And what about the river that runs under Beifus? (Does it know to stop short of Shop Rite?) And what impact does that have? Or will this be another "unexpected" twist? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2512
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:41 pm: |
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jayjay: The asbestos from the old shoprite was already removed.
They know about the water that runs underneath the old shop-rite building but theoretically it is either deep enough or does not exist where they will be digging a basement. The buildings on Vose all have basements already.
I do not know if there will be any unepected finds when they start digging or if there will be any other unexpected twists as you say.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3273
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 3:20 pm: |
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Mark,
I actually thought that significant digging was going to need to occur for the Parking Deck behind Shop Rite...which was why the land required environmental cleanup. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2513
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 3:34 pm: |
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If the question is do I know if there is water under the parking lot too, I can not say for sure. The Dancing Goat building has a full basement as do the buildings on Vose so either the water is much deeper or it is not as much of an issue as it is by the Beifus site.
Personally, I feel the whole water issue was a diversion for the Beifus team to buy themselves more time. I never have had any confidence something would be built there. I hope the planning board grills them when they go back for another hearing. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3275
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
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Quote:I hope the planning board grills them when they go back for another hearing.
Me too, although let's be honest..the Planning Board will rubber stamp this project (now for the THIRD time) because Calabrese is devoted to it.
I'm curious...by getting a NEW Planning Board approval, does the clock now re-start on their "2 year deadline" to start construction. In other words, he first got approval in Dec 2002, got another approval in 2005 and if he gets a new approval in 2006, does he get ANOTHER 2 years to START WORK? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2514
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
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MHD: Not sure because they keep saying it is just asking for a minor amendment, not a new site plan or new approval. I will try and find out, but I did ask that question the other night after the meeting but did not get a definite answer. |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonhw
Post Number: 96
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:04 pm: |
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The question is when will the BOT define when enough is enough! |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2515
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:14 pm: |
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Howie: I said enough to Beifus months ago and voted against the PILOT (and developers agreement). The majority wanted to give him another chance. If he has to come back for an amendment to either agreement, I will vote no again.
Since the project is "stalled" this BOT should discuss our options and then make a decision on how to get this property developed.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1360
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:18 pm: |
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It probably is just an amendment and not a new plan which would start the clock running again. Nevertheless, at least to avoid any possibility that it might start the clock running again, the Planning Board shoud be very specific with its approval, if granted, to specifically state this.
When Saiyd went back to amend his plan to eliminate the basement, it was considered a new plan, which started the clock running again. But as I recall, Saiyd also made some changes above ground as well. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3278
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:23 pm: |
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...and look how well THAT project is moving along.  |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 360
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:23 pm: |
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As far as I am concerned, the clock has run out. Its time for the BOT to declare Beifus in breach on the contract (wasn't May the deadline they were supposed to meet for construction to begin?), take over the parcel and put it on the open market. If Millenium is so hot to develop the town, let them prove their metal by putting forth a proposal (along with anyone else) to develop this parcel first. |
Constructionsux
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 279
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:43 pm: |
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The watertable is 8 feet from the surface at Beifus and a brook runs through the Shop Rite site. The former Beifus Motors had a full basement. The question is who's telling the truth? The environmental expert (who appeared like a really nice guy), whom we had a perfect opportunity to question, was too involved answering questions about who he employs (EEOC/blacks and women) than answering questions related to his findings and recommendations for the planned construction. It was the most embarrassing, non-sensical, and comical line of questioning by a licensed attorney who happens to be an elected official that I have ever seen. Talk about diversions in the name of "multi-faceted diversity" as Trustee Jennings spoke to "personal issues" was an incredible breach of the public's confidence in the ability of this BoT, and specifically these two trustees, to sustain a professional manner for the general welfare of this community. This was not the time to address their "personal issues". Talk about common sense, unbelievable.
I certainly hope the planning board gets it right with respect to a thoughtful review and questioning.
As was mentioned by Allan, there is ground water, as SOPAC experienced this attribution to the property. Where is the ground sampling and soil studies to confirm your understanding of the Shop Rite site. Have you seen anything in writing by a civil engineer concerning the excavation and construction of a 20 - 30 ft below ground level parking garage? If so, can you share this information? What did it say?
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1361
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:53 pm: |
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Dan Goldberg suggested at a BOT meeting several weeks ago that there should be some penalty for someone like Saiyd who allows their property to remain in that condition. What I'm going to say below would apply to Beifus as well.
Dan was told that it's Saiyd's property and he
can do what he wants, and there isn't much the Village can do.
This is not exactly correct. Saiyd's property is in the redevopment zone. As such, the Village can pretty much set the conditions. Even though Saiyd (and Beifus) owns the property, since it is in the redevelopment zone, the Village could have
insisted that Saiyd (and Beifus) post a bond that would be forfeited if certain conditions weren't met.
I would hope that this is done in the future. As it stands now, there really is no economic disincentive for them to do anything. Basically, they're banking the properties. |
vermontgolfer
Supporter
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 343
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 8:51 pm: |
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The entire escapade of Beifus, Sayid and Shop Rite have reached points far beyond the Twilight Zone, with all due respects to Rod Serling. We've lived here for over 20 years and while I believe our BOT has done some good things over those 20 years the condition and issues being faced by this town today are beyond deplorable.
It's time that the board faces the music and hopefully someone steps to the plate and somehow gets something done. I wish I had the foresight, knowledge, energy and time to be that person, but I'm not.
It's become embarrasing to sit and watch the trustee meetings. To think that a majority of our board and our attorney see absolutely no conflict with the potential candidate for the Parking Authority. Whether you think that Mary did or didn't do a good job, it's irrelevant, she's now married to the Village Administator, open your eyes people, please.
I could go on and on, but I'm already beginning to ramble, more than I need to.
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Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 421
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 7:02 am: |
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Mark, since you agree then why don't you place this issue - "enough is enough" on the conference agenda and have an open discussion.
This would also allow the public to get an understanding of where the other members of the BOT stand.
Speaking of process maybe as a result of this discussion a policy/process can be established on how to handle future projects. |
Two Senses
Citizen
Username: Twosense
Post Number: 404
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:02 am: |
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If Drew Beifus' and Sayid Nagim's development sites are both in the the Village's redevelopment zone, and remain prime examples of blighted, grossly under-utilized properties, the Village now should take these properties by eminent domain. It should REDEVELOP them by preparing a bona fide PLAN, seek bona fide, competent alternative DEVELOPERS, establish bona fide contractual STANDARDS for the design, construction and completion of each project, and then sell the properties to developers objectively judged to be the most experienced and capable of actually improving these sites in the near-term.
The VP has been a way-too-long supporter and apologist for these two property owners and wannabe developers, and has only very recently disclosed his personal business ties to one of them. Maybe a review of all past election donations would explain the Village's beyond all reasonable standards, inexhaustible tolerance of these individuals.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3280
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:06 am: |
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You neglected to mention the Village must also use bona fide, competent ATTORNEYS, something that has been grossly lacking in the past. |
CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 567
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
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BOOT BILL! BOOT BILL! BOOT BILL! BOOT BILL! |
JoRo
Citizen
Username: Autojoe51
Post Number: 49
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:50 am: |
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I just picked up a copy of the latest "News-Record," and saw a full-page ad about the proposed redevelopment of 16-odd acres of downtown and Valley by Millennium, with the line: "All that remains is the approval of the Board of Trustees." Did I miss something?
Where are the competing visions? We should be looking at dozens of proposals.
Where is the economic impact statement comparing different types of development? (PILOT v. non-PILOT, calculation of the increased cost of services, etc.)
Where is the traffic study?
Is there a school impact study?
Does S.O. need more residential capacity, or is it a lack of commercial that's been hurting our downtown?
What are the occupancy rates in the Commons and other buildings in town?
Is becoming a "Transit Village" the wisest course of action, or is more organic growth a path worth examining?
Are we working to preserve some of the more architecturally interesting buildings on Sloan & Valley?
Development is good, but a half-cooked plan of this magnitude is potentially ruinous.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3282
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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JoRo,
We should probably move this to a separate thread, but I agree that Millenium is on the "fast track" to approval, despite the "Colombo-like" dubfounded looks the Trustees gave when Millenium presented last month.
You can bet this will be trumped as the "lynch pin" of the Redevelopment, but will be nothing more than a diversion from the delporable conditions and miserable failures of the current Redevelopment trifecta (Shop Rite, Sayid, Beifus). |
Dan Shelffo
Citizen
Username: Openspacer
Post Number: 176
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:29 am: |
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Where are the competing visions?
There is only one vision that matters. Bills. Next question.
Where is the economic impact statement comparing different types of development? (PILOT v. non-PILOT, calculation of the increased cost of services, etc.)
Pilots are good for the Village. This project will lower your taxes by $104.58
Where is the traffic study?
There will be no increased traffic. Traffic will actually decrease because we are a Transit Village.
Is there a school impact study?
There will be no impact to the schools because none of the families moving into the 550 proposed units will have children of school age. Why waste money on a darn study? It is studies like these that needlessly delay projects in this town.
Does S.O. need more residential capacity, or is it a lack of commercial that's been hurting our downtown?
We need all the residential units we can cram into this town. We are talking new demographics here and we need a place to house them. If commercial ratebles were so darn important why would we take something like Sickley and give it to Transit? Why would we take the former Wells Cadillac and zone it residential? Pay attention.
What are the occupancy rates in the Commons and other buildings in town?
Is becoming a "Transit Village" the wisest course of action, or is more organic growth a path worth examining?
The Newstead went bankrupt due in part to low occupancy rates. Look at it now. Didn’t you ever see Field of Dreams? Build them, they will come. Anything good that comes to this town was brought in by New Jersey Transit (Blame Amtrak for anything bad that was brought in).
Are we working to preserve some of the more architecturally interesting buildings on Sloan & Valley?
No. Tear it all down plus the Old Stone House, Village Hall and the firehouse. One generations sprawl is the next generation’s landmarks. Tear it all down before it gets a historical designation and we can’t.
Development is good, but a half-cooked plan of this magnitude is potentially ruinous.
People call it sprawl jut because we do not have a master plan that is relied upon to guide us. These master plans are just another annoyance because they have to be updated each time something bright and shinny comes along that alters our vision. This also causes projects to be delayed.
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Two Senses
Citizen
Username: Twosense
Post Number: 405
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:28 pm: |
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Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 6:35 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No vision, no strategy.
No updated master plan.
No downtown plan.
No Village-generated requirements/specifications.
No Request for Information (RFI) from potential developers.
No Request for Proposals (RFP) from vetted developers.
No competing developer submissions.
No environmental, traffic, school district, public safety, or economic assessments.
No progress on the Beifus, New Market, Sayid Plaza, or Town Hall Deli sites.
No bona fide community input.
No evidence of sensitivity to the scale of the downtown development (5-story New Market, 4-story Millenium proposal).
No evidence of management depth in Village government to handle current redevelopment plans.
No confidence in current administration.
No due diligence of Millenium's track record, financial resources, management, or affiliates.
Yes, there can be no disagreement that South Orange is ready to move this project along in an expeditious manner, and designate the first developer to submit costly architectural renderings as the sole developer of a $200 million development covering 25% of our downtown and promising to supplement property taxes by 20%.
Full speed ahead!
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Camel Jockey
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 280
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 2:25 pm: |
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At sunset, I'll be off and running....
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CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 568
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 2:55 pm: |
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BOOT BILL! BOOT BILL! BOOT BILL! BOOT BILL! |
Sitoyan
Citizen
Username: Sitoyan
Post Number: 132
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 6:44 pm: |
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Say that fast if you can:
BOOT BILL AND ED AND JOHN
BOOT BILL AND ED AND JOHN
BOOT BILL AND ED AND JOHN
BOOT BILL AND ED AND JOHN
BOOT BILL AND ED AND JOHN |
Lucy
Supporter
Username: Lucy
Post Number: 2677
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:42 pm: |
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3288
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:03 am: |
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Quote:Do you have any idea what "certain things" they are removing?
Mrosner responds "More asbestos was found at the triangle building on Vose. Developer is responsible for the removal. "
Mark - I just wanted to say thanks for YOUR clear response. This is another example of why people get frustrated when the BOT and John and Ed give "vague" answers.
Why couldn't Mr. Gross simply say "they are removing asbestos"? Why did he have to say "they are removing certain things". That just leads to suspicion that he is trying to hide something & not being forthcoming with information that doesn't need to be a secret. Knowing that we are intentionally being given vague answers will just require us to be more suspicious of everything that we are told now.
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No Hamburg
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 285
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 10:53 am: |
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I would suspect the removal could take one or two days and not months - how about you?
I wonder whether the market developer is still interested? I can't imagine any seriously minded investor would allow to be delayed from implementing their business plan for so many years. I wonder what they think at this point or what sort of commitment they are contracted to? If they back off from the development, what happens to fill the space? What happens to the value of the pilot we extended?
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3748
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 5:36 pm: |
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Add Stacey and Terri to the list of people to boot! |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 221
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 4:45 am: |
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Time check. Any new news? |
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